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| Thread: The Nation of Earth? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Darkshadow
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Cerise Princess
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posted September 04, 2008 04:13 PM |
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What's necessary is that we begin to harvest asteroids and other planets for resources.
This would not be far off our technological level now if anyone cared to try.
So the Earth wasn't enough?We have to kill everything else in space too?This makes me hope even more that there are other species in space that come here one day and wipe us off.
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But my theory is that mysterious diseases such as cancer are there only as population control
Probably, and with the current population raises, we need more of those, lots of more.
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Lexxan
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Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 04, 2008 04:15 PM |
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China is Communist in name only. What kind of Communist government allows private ownership of the means of production? What kind of Communist government works so hard to attract foreign investment?
What kind of Non-Comunist state would forbid every party except the communist one? What Non-Communist State has his own State Manual? What Non-Communist state cares more about it's own Imago that the wellfare of the population? Inwhich non-Communist Country do you get in prison without trial for even critisizing the Communist Party in pulbic. Inwhich non-Communist Country would The law-enforcement mercilessly hit and punch strikers and manifestants?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 04, 2008 04:40 PM |
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So the Earth wasn't enough?We have to kill everything else in space too?This makes me hope even more that there are other species in space that come here one day and wipe us off.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 04, 2008 04:46 PM |
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No, of course they wouldn't. How could they? They came from a different country with barely any money. And besides, their children are disoriented (in a loose sense), and are prone to various influences that they wouldn't be if they were at home (such as drugs). So even if you gave them good houses, they'd still be vulnerable.
No, you see, they wouldn't be coming from a different country. They would come from the same country. Because there would only be ONE country. If we're talking about the world government here 
Keeping some regions more developed than others would be a prime example of favoritism and would seriously undermine the idea of one government by itself.
And while we're at drugs, without control at the boundaries, narcotic sales would go up by several hundred percent. Since a single police force wouldn't be able to handle both political/stability problems and rising criminal activities (encouraged by the abolition of boundary control and similar), a division would have to be made - to separate criminal police from stability police. Or, functionally, regular police and army. And what's the point of one world nation if an army is still being used, with repeated possibility of wars and all those funds going into military research again?
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Hmm... this is not entirely true. Look, for example, at Indians (from India). Many of them come to the US to study, and some to work, but many of them, after having completed their studies, move back to India and work for various companies there, by computer, for instance. And that way the wouldn't need to be away from their families. This could be applied to many other places and industries.
I didn't say "all", I said "a lot". And we'll agree that huge amounts of people would prefer to live in North America or Western Europe over Cambodia or Pakistan.
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This is a rather puzzling statement. Could you elaborate some?
I don't see how anything about my statement is puzzling.
Would you like to see millions of poor people in your country (millions more than now, at least)? Now imagine you're running it.
Too much cheap workforce would lead to unemployment, larger consummation and spreading of drugs, huge expenses due to social programs for all those people, dissent among the higher and middle classes etc.
However, if there are poor people in other countries, capitalists are able to import as much of them as needed, when they are needed. Without having to feed those that they don't need or want in their country.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 04, 2008 04:50 PM |
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And we'll agree that huge amounts of people would prefer to live in North America or Western Europe over Cambodia or Pakistan.
Well it depends if the people have "western" thinking (in your case) or "eastern" thinking
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 04, 2008 10:47 PM |
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TheDeath:
Any line that you would draw between "basic social stuff" and what isn't would be entirely arbitrary? Is addition "basic social stuff"? Is division? How about long division? With decimals? Applying that to algebra? Trig? Calculus?
Xerox:
China isn't really communist, though.
DS:
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So the Earth wasn't enough?We have to kill everything else in space too?This makes me hope even more that there are other species in space that come here one day and wipe us off.
Yeah, we have to protect those spacians. Oh, wait... And if you want to wipe humanity off, start with yourself. I'm seriously getting tired of misanthropy. Humans are the greatest thing before sliced bread.
Lexxan:
I'm not saying that China isn't authoritarian, I'm saying that it's not really Communist. You don't have to be communist to be authoritarian. Look at Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, pre-War Eastern Europe, Paraguay under Stroessner, Chile under Pinochet... Communism is the combination of authoritarianism with a government monopoly on productive economic activity.
Bak:
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No, you see, they wouldn't be coming from a different country. They would come from the same country. Because there would only be ONE country. If we're talking about the world government here
No, I was talking about the way it is right now. But even under a world government, there would still be different cultures, and people would also be moving to new areas, away from the old social groups and social networks, and still be disoriented.
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Keeping some regions more developed than others would be a prime example of favoritism and would seriously undermine the idea of one government by itself.
Indeed, which is why poor areas should be improved before there is one world government.
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And while we're at drugs, without control at the boundaries, narcotic sales would go up by several hundred percent. Since a single police force wouldn't be able to handle both political/stability problems and rising criminal activities (encouraged by the abolition of boundary control and similar)
Why not just legalize drugs?
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And we'll agree that huge amounts of people would prefer to live in North America or Western Europe over Cambodia or Pakistan.
Not if the standard of living was roughly equal. You said that even if it was near equal, they'd still come, basically because of inertia, but I'm trying to say that they wouldn't - all things being the same, they'd rather not move.
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Too much cheap workforce would lead to unemployment
Only if there is a minimum wage.
And there's also outsourcing and trade - you don't have to live in a certain country to benefit its residents.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 05, 2008 12:00 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 00:04, 05 Sep 2008.
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You're incorrect Moonlith. China is one of the last Communist Dictatorships in the world (others being North-Korea and Cuba)
Andyes China IS communist.
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Communsimn works good in China, it would be a disaster if they suddenly changed it.
You two might want to look up the definition of Communism as defined by Karl Marx. China =/= Communism, period. Communism is an idealistic society structure in which there is no difference in possession of goods between humans, and no difference in wealth between humans, in which everything is owned by everyone; collective goods. A pure communistic society has never - EVER - existed, and never will. It have all been and all are dictatorships claiming they are either Communistic or democratic, which they are not.
I do agree with you though that China is doing quite well for a dictatorship Heck, they offered faster and better aid to victims of natural disasters than the USA did.
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antipaladin
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of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 05, 2008 12:47 AM |
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Do you think china will go imperialistic on us?
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types in obscure english
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2008 01:10 AM |
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Hard to say. China is unlikely to go to war with the US, though it might try to undermine its influence internationally. The China-Russia relationship, though, is far more interesting. Russia has oil in Siberia. China is going to need a lot of oil. China is stronger than Russia. Do the math...
But except for such specific cases, war would probably act against China's interests.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 05, 2008 01:36 AM |
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That's the funny part Unlike America, China cannot pretend to fight for freedom and democracy simply because it doesn't have such an image.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted September 05, 2008 01:28 PM |
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A pure communistic society has never - EVER - existed, and never will. It have all been and all are dictatorships claiming they are either Communistic or democratic, which they are not...
What's the difference between a communistic nation described by Marx, and let's say countries like Cuba and former German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany), which were for sure lead (or still is -> Cuba) in a highly communistic way, but by ONE leader?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 05, 2008 01:58 PM |
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Any line that you would draw between "basic social stuff" and what isn't would be entirely arbitrary?
No. You know, things that put you up in society, without going to jail because of, for example, misunderstanding in language. Basic language = stuff to know so you don't end up not even knowing what you are accused of BECAUSE you don't understand the language. Basic arithmetic is also required.
Division? Maybe, but not very important. Calculus? Obviously not. Trig? Huh, why?
Decimals? Maybe to know what they are, but not necessarily being "good" at it.
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Yeah, we have to protect those spacians. Oh, wait... And if you want to wipe humanity off, start with yourself.
Now you see, that would be if he were irrational. Would starting with himself wipe out humanity off? Please. Don't be ridiculous.
I am seriously getting tired of your constant nonsense regarding this subject. For example, he didn't even say "wipe out" humanity, but rather preventing it from exploiting and expanding MORE. Geez, somehow it seems you only hear what you want to hear, since you don't have arguments for something else.
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baklava
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posted September 05, 2008 02:31 PM |
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@Death
It's not about eastern or western thinking, it's about thinking
@Mvas
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Humans are the greatest thing before sliced bread.
Especially those that realize that they aren't.
About legalization of drugs, I really wouldn't like my son to work in Heroin Inc ("Destroying your lives since 2015") or start doing drugs cause it's a new trend. Neither would I be happy with him going to the Oklahoma State Assassin University or volunteering at the National Thief Society.
Now you're going to say that it's not the same because you choose whether to take drugs or not. When you think that, imagine a 40 year old pedophile talking your 13 year old daughter into having sex with him. And ask yourself whether you should legalize that.
Moving on.
Raising the living standard to be equal (and by that, I suppose you mean "equal to Western") everywhere in the world would not only be economically and physically hard (again, "hard" is an understatement here), but also lethal to the environment (since at least 80% of research that should go into environmental research would again be spent on "security purposes"), and "bad for business" for a LOT of "important" people (and their lobbies would be quick to stop or at least slow down any progress of that kind).
Also, we all know that the more developed regions of the world would have all the control in the government, and it would be in their best interests to try and stay more developed, lest they have to share their power with other strong regions. Especially seeing how, currently, people from poor regions vastly outnumber those from developed ones.
I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible (at least theoretically), but not until the world unites since it's quite obvious that governments of various developed countries are generally too busy squabbling among themselves to pay much attention to starving people.
To address your last point, the abolition of minimum wage would result in lower and lower wages, worse and worse standards, a devolution of the social system, corporations gaining more and more power until they can actually hold people much like feudal serfs, and finally resulting in a Cyberpunk setting that is good for roleplaying games but I wouldn't recommend anyone to try to actually live that way.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 05, 2008 02:36 PM |
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It's not about eastern or western thinking, it's about thinking
When you say thinking, you actually say western thinking. Some easterners, for example Indians, may believe and be loyal to their land/home/whatever, even if let's say, they would get a free ticket to some other place, where they have "material goods" 
and thus, a better standard of living by western standards!
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted September 05, 2008 10:46 PM |
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You're mixing up clear thinking with patriotism and nostalgia.
Let me put it this way.
Let's say you lived in your homeland all your life. You have a family. A wife, some kids. The situation in your home country, no matter how much you love it, is crappy. Living standards are low, conflicts occur every once in a while, poverty and unemployment is abundant, and there's no clear signs of things trying to get any better. And you're powerless to do anything about it. Then you get an opportunity to go live and work in a safer, developed country.
If you decide to take the opportunity to get your family out of those conditions, at least until you earn something that can make your life better (cause you can always come back), that's not Western thinking. That's common sense and love for your family. It doesn't mean you don't love your country, or that you're a materialist or traitor.
But if you decide to throw that away just like that, to condemn your children to a crappy childhood because of some misguided sense of pride and nationalism, you're no patriot. You're no hero. You're no "Eastern thinker". You're a prick.
I know how hard it is to leave the place you were born and go in search of something else (and nostalgia, no matter what your home country is like, is pressing you like a huge anvil), but sometimes it's the best thing to do - for you and your loved ones. That doesn't mean you're a capitalist or anything. It just means you want what's best for everybody. It also requires a lot of bravery and inner strength to go seek a new life in an unfamiliar place to ensure a better life for your kids. Heck, there's no law forbidding you to return to your homeland once things get better.
My uncle went off to live in the USA with his wife and kid several years ago, and he returned here a couple of months ago, when he earned some cash and the situation stabilized a bit. That's just the way it is. It's not the matter of "Eastern or Western thinking".
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted September 05, 2008 11:19 PM |
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But if you decide to throw that away just like that, to condemn your children to a crappy childhood because of some misguided sense of pride and nationalism, you're no patriot. You're no hero. You're no "Eastern thinker". You're a prick.
You're describing more the African life-style which is kinda western
And there isn't an auto-magical option to "go away" for everybody like you said. I wasn't even talking about conflicts, but if you take it as that, you think terrorists don't exist in "developed" countries?
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baklava
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posted September 06, 2008 01:42 AM |
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African lifestyle?
I'll give you 10 bucks if you can tell me what you're talking about.
So, in your opinion, the Balkans, ex-USSR, the Middle East, India etc. are all following "the African lifestyle", which is "kinda Western"?
I lost you there.
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And there isn't an auto-magical option to "go away" for everybody like you said.
When on Earth did I say that?
Read carefully now. I mentioned an example of a man who does have the opportunity to go live and work elsewhere. That entire weird concept of "western/eastern thinking" that you mentioned (because you just couldn't let go of it for some reason) can - obviously enough - only be discussed about people who have a choice.
But let's talk about less fortunate people. Those who are not able to go into another country right now. Don't you think there are many of those who would, if they could? What do you think, is that a bad thing? Is it treacherous and unpatriotic if you think that it would be nice to try your luck elsewhere for a change, since it isn't quite working out in the homeland?
Again, the abolition of borders would make it easier for all those people to migrate massively, and though that would be a good thing for them, it would be bad both for their home regions and the regions they're heading to. Not everyone would migrate, of course, but millions would. And that would be a problem.
And let me tell you, yes, I think there is far less terrorism and armed conflict in more developed countries than in less developed ones. See, when dozens of villages are burnt down in Africa, it goes in the news and lasts for a day or two. But the World Trade Center gets blown up, and several years later people everywhere are still talking about it. Because they aren't used to it. While millions of starving people in Africa are yesterday's news.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
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posted September 06, 2008 02:27 AM |
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TheDeath:
Okay, then, why is multiplication necessary, but not division?
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Would starting with himself wipe out humanity off?
Is this an endorsement of mass murder? You know, Hitler liked genocide too. Only instead of Jews, you prefer the whole human race. So, for you, fetuses, animals, and the weak have rights, but no one else does.
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For example, he didn't even say "wipe out" humanity, but rather preventing it from exploiting expanding MORE.
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This makes me hope even more that there are other species in space that come here one day and wipe us off.
I think the record disagrees with you.
Bak:
You know, we tried prohibition of alcohol. It made crime worse. So we re-legalized it. Maybe to the same with other drugs? And it's entirely wrong to compare drug use with pedophilia. Pedophilia is one person acting on another. Drug use is one person acting on him/herself.
As for raising the living standard, no, it can't be done in a day. There has to be more research into alternative fuels and materials, etc. If the masses of China, India, and Africa started living like people do in America and W. Europe, that would be environmentally disasterous. That's why there should be more environmentally-friendly technology. But then their living standard can rise safely. And, in the meantime, they have to start developing slightly, and get an education. I'm sure there are a bunch of geniouses there who are simply going to waste.
As for the minimum wage, it increases unemployment, which isn't good, and is extemely discriminatory against people with few skills. If I'm willing to work for $1 an hour, and the company is willing to pay me, then why should the government tell me that I can't? Because if I work, I'll actually be doing something productive, and help the economy, instead of just leeching of off the taxpayers.
As for the debate over immigration, I agree with Bak, but I would like to ask him this:Quote:
My uncle went off to live in the USA with his wife and kid several years ago, and he returned here a couple of months ago, when he earned some cash and the situation stabilized a bit.
Why? Why'd he come back? I mean, I'm sure Serbia is better than it was, but it's nowhere near as good as the US. I emigrated from Russia, and I do still have some family there, but under no circumstances would I move back (unless the standard of living there became higher than the one here).
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
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Professional
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posted September 06, 2008 04:44 AM |
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So the Earth wasn't enough?We have to kill everything else in space too?This makes me hope even more that there are other species in space that come here one day and wipe us off.
Are you serious?
Asteroids are rocks of minerals water heavy metals etc.
They aren't alive...
You can't sit up there on your moral high horse while wishing more cancer upon the people of the earth.
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But my theory is that mysterious diseases such as cancer are there only as population control
Probably, and with the current population raises, we need more of those, lots of more.
This is actually disgusting.
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 12:46 PM |
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Is this an endorsement of mass murder? You know, Hitler liked genocide too. Only instead of Jews, you prefer the whole human race. So, for you, fetuses, animals, and the weak have rights, but no one else does.
No it's not, I hate to use force, but you know, when people cross the line, sometimes you need to take action.
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I think the record disagrees with you.
You got it all wrong I'm afraid. He doesn't wish aliens to wipe us if we play NICE. However, you know, people can cross the line sometimes -- and I'm 90% positive they will, learning from history. In that respect, sure, those that cross the line need to be wiped out. It's simple.
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Are you serious?
Asteroids are rocks of minerals water heavy metals etc.
They aren't alive...
What is alive and what isn't? Do they have to be alive like us, humans? If we create AIs with "life", do you consider them life? Why, they aren't biological.
Now of course you will say I'm weird, but let's not even talk about life anymore. Let's talk about the Universe's undisturbed balance. That asteroid was going to do something. It's not like it's a useless piece of matter in space. Maybe we disturbed something. It's not like we'll limit ourselves to asteroids. Heck if we "blow up" an entire solar system, are you going to tell me "it was ok" because we, are omniscient, and we know the purpose of that Solar System...
it's like letting your kids play with your computer because they think they "know everything there is" and they are the "judges of what is 'worth' and what is not" -- unfortunately let's say they break it. I'm pretty sure you would get upset by their "disturbance".
You call it "the best we can do". I call it ignorance and naivete. Ignorance because there are people like me, but you know, it's not like they ever listen to arguments like above. 
For this reason, they need to be wiped out. Since it's obvious they don't learn by peaceful understanding (see above), but only by force. Since of course, humans are still primitive with the 'might makes right'.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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