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| Thread: The Nation of Earth? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted September 06, 2008 02:42 PM |
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What is alive and what isn't? Do they have to be alive like us, humans? If we create AIs with "life", do you consider them life? Why, they aren't biological.
There is a definition of life.
Homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli and reproduction.
Why do I always end up in absurd conversations with you The Death such as whether asteroids are alive 
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Now of course you will say I'm weird, but let's not even talk about life anymore. Let's talk about the Universe's undisturbed balance. That asteroid was going to do something. It's not like it's a useless piece of matter in space. Maybe we disturbed something. It's not like we'll limit ourselves to asteroids. Heck if we "blow up" an entire solar system, are you going to tell me "it was ok" because we, are omniscient, and we know the purpose of that Solar System...
If you don't want to disturb anything then by all means go and lie down for the rest of your life.
Actually, don't lie down because you will disturb the higher purpose of the dirt particles
Seriously.
____________
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Doomforge
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posted September 06, 2008 02:52 PM |
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The major two definitions of life are metabolism and "self-improvement". That's why it's hard to unequivocally state whether viruses are alive or not. Because they have no metabolism, yet they are adapting and constantly "improving" themselves. Rocks have neither of those, so obviously, they aren't alive. 
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 02:55 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:58, 06 Sep 2008.
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Why do I always end up in absurd conversations with you The Death such as whether asteroids are alive
Of course it's absurd, since we're all omniscient and well, know basically that an asteroid won't do anything. See the asteroid that blast the dinosaurs? What if some stupid aliens were to use it and thus destroy it? We wouldn't be alive -- and the problem is that the aliens believed that "the asteroid had no purpose what-so-ever" in their distant solar system -- little would they have known.
How do you know that the asteroid you harvest won't create life in the future? Are you omniscient? 
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If you don't want to disturb anything then by all means go and lie down for the rest of your life.
Actually, don't lie down because you will disturb the higher purpose of the dirt particles
Seriously.
Yes seriously -- dirt is part of a closed system, the Earth's system (bio-sphere, whatever it's called). You don't see it affecting Mars, do you? Or places that we have no clue about. I disturb the dirt, but I don't modify the Earth's balance.
Oops i forgot, humans know every piece of the Universe and are omniscient with their calculations and know what's it's going to do, and we know if it's life or not (based on our definitions), so we can be pretty sure to exploit it, right? 
@Doomforge: I think you guys failed to understand what I meant with life. Why does it have to be biological life, as WE KNOW it? What if we create AIs that self-think? They are obviously different than biological life.
Now step outside to a world of mystery. Just as we "invented" let's say AIs with our IDEAS, maybe there is life beyond what we can even imagine, that is a different form of life. And I'm not talking about the asteroid itself (look up how it can have an "impact" on the whole balance of the Universe above!).
Why does it have to be life by OUR ideas/knowledge about it?
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Doomforge
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posted September 06, 2008 02:56 PM |
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But we can't try act like higher consciousness mate, because we are not one.
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 03:00 PM |
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I don't know what you mean. What I'm saying is that, observation of the mystery of the Universe, is good. However, exploitation is not, because that's like using a gun without knowing that each time you press the trigger, a black hole gets created, and will eat the whole universe in 50 years (just a silly example so you get the point).
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
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posted September 06, 2008 03:02 PM |
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To prevent such effects, we would have to be omniscient, and that is not going to happen, so.. let's not get paranoid.
The nature of the random systems is _random_ by default. You can't predict what can happen (and even if you think you can, you fail - check "butterfly effect", even in wikicrapia), so the possible outcome shouldn't be a burden. If you put a brick on top of the wall, it's possible that it can be taken by tornado and kill someone 100 km away from the place you put it. Does it mean you're a murderer, does it mean you could predict it, does it even mean you should care for it? lol. Pointless and absurd.
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 03:18 PM |
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The nature of the random systems is _random_ by default. You can't predict what can happen (and even if you think you can, you fail - check "butterfly effect", even in wikicrapia), so the possible outcome shouldn't be a burden. If you put a brick on top of the wall, it's possible that it can be taken by tornado and kill someone 100 km away from the place you put it. Does it mean you're a murderer, does it mean you could predict it, does it even mean you should care for it? lol. Pointless and absurd.
LOL dude you're talking about a tornado, a known effect, and besides, it is in Earth's domain, where we live. Not so in outer space. Not so since we don't even KNOW stuff out there.
Yes it would require us to be omniscient, but my point isn't to prevent such things. Do you allow your child to press on a cool shiny nuclear detonation button? The problem with us, is that we do not have parents to stop us. Would you press the button? If it came from outer space?
Leave it the freaking alone. That's it.
If you choose not to, it's 100% your fault. So why should, e.g: aliens, have any mercy? After all, we were playing with fire.
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Doomforge
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posted September 06, 2008 03:22 PM |
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I don't follow your way of thinking. If we can't prevent and shouldn't really care for something we know can happen, why should we even take something that we don't know can happen into consideration? If you can't prevent f-16 from bombing the bunker, should it mean you should worry about UFO destroying it with photon cannon? ~~
We can't even deal with know random threats, and you're telling us to watch out for unknown? riiiiiiiiiiiight.
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baklava
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posted September 06, 2008 03:22 PM |
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@MVas
What did people get with the legalization of alcohol? Sure, there's less smuggling going on. But there are also thousands of drunken car accidents each year, illnesses caused by alcohol, families ruined by alcoholism etc. And alcohol is far, far less dangerous than the drugs that you'd want to legalize... The consequences of drug use are a dozen times worse than the use of alcohol.
Cannabis is as far as the world can go with the legalization of drugs. It's simply too horrifying to think of living in a place where heroin is legal.
And drug use isn't one person acting upon him/herself. Drug use is one dealer acting upon a whole lot of persons. Weak-willed persons are willing to use drugs if other people convince them, just like your daughter would be willing if the pedophile talks her into having sex with him.
About the living standard being raised parallel with environmental research, that's exactly what I was saying - it would be perfect. However, research funds are getting depleted by military research and the situation would remain like that (or even worse) if a world government would come in place, since high-tech weaponry would scare unruly movements into obedience.
About the minimum wage issue.
Are you aware that there are people who are not willing to work for a dollar per hour? If someone earns 4 dollars per hour, and then someone comes around and says he's willing to do the same job for 1 dollar, then the former person will get sacked. So he'll be forced to find a job for 1 dollar per hour too. Next thing you know, the world's a ghetto and corporations rule it by blackmailing anyone and everyone. No, I'm not sure I'd like that.
As to your final question... I asked myself the same thing. But living all alone, just with your wife and kid, without any friends or anyone you know, in a foreign nation, is extremely hard... And I guess nostalgia dragged him all the way back here. There is more to life than just cash - but money is necessary nevertheless. So he found a compromise - when he earned enough for a nice living, he came back to Serbia, to his friends, wider family and people who share the same mentality.
And anyway, living around here isn't so bad now. You've got everything you need. You earn less than you would in USA, but some things are cheaper, so it balances out in the end. It's not perfect of course, but it's far better than a lot of places. 
@Death
An environmental freak as I am, I'm still not certain as to how mining asteroids would harm the universe that much... With black holes sucking in whole galaxies in a few seconds, I doubt that we'd make a huge difference by taking a bit of metal off a giant rock. So I think you're overreacting there a bit there.
____________
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted September 06, 2008 03:23 PM |
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The thing is, why should we think that something is "out there"?
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Doomforge
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posted September 06, 2008 03:24 PM |
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The thing is, why should we think that something is "out there"?
and why should it bother us? I agree.. thinking about "epic outcome" is a waste of time.
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baklava
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posted September 06, 2008 03:29 PM |
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The thing is, why should we think that something is "out there"?
What, you mean out there in that nigh infinite number of galaxies, stars and planets such as ours?
Indeed, what makes us think that there might be something over there?
____________
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 03:33 PM |
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The thing is, why should we think that something is "out there"?
Why should aliens thought of that when they decided not to mine the asteroid that hit the Earth & got rid of dinos? of course we can be selfish and care only for ourselves, but you most certainly don't think that we would have been here (in this example!) if everyone was like us. Thus, our mentality is bad, since we wouldn't have survived if everyone thought used it. In other words, we exploit other mentalities' kindness and then claim ours is the best true way -- sounds like a virus to me. You know, a virus thinks he is the best (well not really but you get the analogy ), but he can't survive without a host, which he exploits.
@Doomforge: In fact, why should we bother? Like you said.
It's really really easy to just let the asteroid and ignore it. In fact, easier than exploiting it. You're not forced to think of an outcome, but if you don't know what a button does, why press it, so you can eventually disturb the balance?
That's why we should "think" and "care" about it. Because you know, we're not the center of the Universe. And aliens have already been too kind. We are abominable freaks that feast on everything without realizing that we wouldn't even be here in the first place, if everyone was like us. Look around. Look how much devastation we brought. Even to OURSELVES (wars etc). I'm not ignorant of the FACTS.
We need to change and apply this with understanding, not with FORCE.
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william
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posted September 06, 2008 03:35 PM |
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Isn't this thread supposed to be about Earth and what's happening inside of it such as Governments for an example, instead of this discussion being about Asteroids and aliens?
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mvassilev
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posted September 06, 2008 03:54 PM |
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Bak:
I mean anything more than basic bacteria.
TheDeath:
Quote:
you most certainly don't think that we would have been here (in this example!) if everyone was like us
Who is "everyone"?
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 04:15 PM |
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Who is "everyone"?
All the other aliens in the Universe. You know, unlike us, they most likely are wiser and not arrogant and ignorant.
(as for the "wipe us out", it's a forced decision in this context, surely I don't meant to wipe out humans that don't interfere with the 'universe's' plans ())
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mvassilev
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posted September 06, 2008 05:01 PM |
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baklava
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posted September 06, 2008 05:09 PM |
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Sigh.
To continue with the off-topicness, if you acknowledge that there might be "basic bacteria" out there, you have to acknowledge the possible existence of more evolved creatures. Planets "live" for billions of years, and species need only a few million to evolve. And there are countless planets much older than Earth, with same or similar conditions.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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del_diablo
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posted September 06, 2008 05:11 PM |
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What other aliens?
Non-terra forms of life that has reached a certain stage.
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TheDeath
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posted September 06, 2008 05:11 PM |
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How exactly would you like me to point them out to you, by taking you on a space trip? Seriously you know what I meant.
Or maybe you're just the perfect example of ignorance that you are absolutely sure humans are the center of the Universe (as a manner of speech, which means, the only beings with "life")!
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