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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 15, 2008 09:33 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 09:37, 15 Sep 2008.
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Hmm seems we are discussing something seperate. I am talking war in general, not specific. You brought up Iraq. See unlike some here I don't do generalizations. I know the common citizen of Iraq is no worse or better then a common citizen of America. We should not blame them for what SOME of their people are doing.
I agree that there was a tremendous lack of intelligence for this fight with Iraq. Unfortunately that is the fact with MILITARY intelligence.
But this generalazation that Americans are (Fill in the blank with) : Greedy, cruel, warmongers, etc... is just WRONG.
Some of us are peace loving, caring, compassionate, etc. Yet, everywhere I turn I see America Bashing. It gets old. I've not harmed anybody, heck I even have pangs of conscious if I hurt a fly.
Edit : Well not hurt anybody in a way they didn't enjoy. 
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Message received.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted September 15, 2008 09:46 AM |
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Who does attack America then?
Besides 9/11, which may or may not have been the work of Al Qaeda, but regardlesss, you can't put up an embargo against an organization that is not a nation.
And no one is blaming your average American citizen, however the citizens of Iraq don't need to be blamed for anything; they can feel the effects of this war every day.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted September 15, 2008 05:22 PM |
bonus applied by angelito on 15 Sep 2008. |
Edited by baklava at 17:31, 15 Sep 2008.
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The way I see it, an average American is an honest, loyal, hard working, patriotic man, on a quest to feed his family throughout whatever happens around him.
Then again, so is the average German, yet Germany started two world wars.
It isn't a matter of an ordinary man. We're talking nations here. Governments. Politicians. Leaders. Those never really had anything to do with ordinary people, except when ordinary people get pissed and cut off some heads - after which another politician, using different words but same thinking, comes to power.
American citizens didn't want any of these wars. Neither did the Iraqis. Or the above-mentioned Germans back at the start of the 20th century. No man wants aggression and death. But when your leader comes around and tells you you're threatened, of course you'll pick up your arms and defend your homes. That's what terrorists are fed since childhood - "Americans are an insult to Allah and his laws, they attack us, endanger us in our homes, and we have no choice but to fight them". Now replace "Allah" with "democracy" and tell me if it sounds familiar.
No one ever believed his side was the first to attack. No one wants to believe it. As far as each side is concerned, they're all defending their homes.
During the crusades, people of low birth were recruited and fed by priests with stories of Muslims at their gates, conquering, pillaging and occupying all before them, and depicted as a direct threat against their homes. The Church relied on the people's fear, loyalty and lack of education and thinking to drag massive amounts of people to get slaughtered on some forgotten battlefield somewhere in the holy land. Because the West, back then, too, has failed to realize that the deserts of Middle East are not, and can't be, their lands. That they simply do not belong there. Just like Muslims could never rule the West, the West could never rule the Islamic world. And ordinary people could not (and still can't) understand that because they never thought of it as a battle of domination - they always perceived it as defending their homes against the foreign aggressor.
That goes to show - the average man back then, just like now and ever, does not want to think. That's the problem. He likes the word "freedom", and he wants to be called free, but if he ever got it, he wouldn't know what to do with it. That's why leaders existed since the dawn of time - people, much like cattle (perhaps even a little worse), desperately need someone to tell them what to do. Someone to think for them. Someone who'll say "do this and it will all turn out great". They can't organize themselves. They need a system, and systems need enforcement. The system raises you, feeds you, makes you love it - becomes a sort of your parent, your saviour, your god - and it knows what's best for you. It has plans for you. And when it calls you, you have to answer. You have to defend your system, your idea, and with it, your home and loved ones. In that way, democracy, patriotism, the Church and Allah all function similarly. They're all ideas, systems, which humans created in order to protect themselves from their own stupidity.
It's not about the USA as a nation. God knows how screwed up the world would be if my country ruled it  It's about the leaders from all sides, squabbling in their senseless battles and feeding people whatever people want to be fed with. While ordinary plebs do their chores and hope to come out of the entire mess alive - cause that's the way it is.
Now, on to the international level.
Yes, the USA has its share of blood on its hands. A lot of it. Just like China, and Russia. No better, no worse. Chinese shoot students in the Tiananmen square, Soviet tanks go out on streets in Poland, Americans send thousands to senselessly kill and die in Vietnam. Chinese brutally quell unrest in Tibet, Russia fights for its interests in Georgia, the USA attacks Iraq. It goes in circles. It's what all superpowers do. There are no good guys there.
Which leads us to another point that Americans often make. "If we participated less in global affairs, the world would still complain."
See, the USA, as a nation striving to rule the world, makes enemies, but also needs to make friends. It will attack a country, but it will also send aid to another country. That's favoritism, yes, but it's rather calculated and pays off rather well. During the breakup of Yugoslavia (to name an example close to me), the USA stood pretty much against the Serbs, and hence many of my people dislike them, but they gained new "friends" (if that word can be used in international diplomacy) in the form of Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Albania, and now Kosovo from that whole affair. They attacked Vietnam, which improved relations with France among other things. They built up relations with former Soviet republics such as Georgia in order to entangle Russia. And so on. There will always be some people whom they'll help while making lives worse for some others. Which allows them to say that whatever they do, half the world will complain, and that serves as a great excuse to continue doing the superpower stuff.
I'm tired of typing so, to conclude:
Is USA evil? No.
Is USA good? No.
What's up with it then? Who knows? Most people blame the government, and maybe I'm among those people, but no one wakes up in the morning and says "Well, I'm gonna be evil today". Whatever they do, they're doing cause they believe it's right. And no one has the firepower to tell them otherwise. We could say that they're just like the governments of every other superpower in the world. I for one can't hate them for it nor objectively say whether they're evil or not.
I can just feel compassion for people that suffer and die because of all of that.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted September 16, 2008 12:34 AM |
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Edited by Shares at 00:35, 16 Sep 2008.
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First of all, I actually think that USA does more bad than good, that doesn't make them evil cuz' evil is when somebody knows what's right and what's wrong and then choose the wrong one, for any reason, and since most politicians do thing they belive are right they are not evil, they are just wrong, if you can say that somebody is wrong in moral issues.
Summary:
Evil=knowing right/wrong choose wrong
Example:
Hitler wasn't evil, not in the begining, he did what he thought was right; and come on, most countries actually wanted a war, at least the richer ones. I mean old Germany is only considered evil/wrong since they lost the war. The winners are always right. Then Hitler got crazy and couln't think like a "normal person". He lost the ability to see the right and wrong and therefore: HE WAS NOT EVIL. He would be considered good if he had won the war.
NOTE: I am not saying I think he did the right stuff, but when the war started, it could have been started by any one, and he did what he thought was the best for his people until he got mad.
EDIT: OMG! I sound like a nazi!!! I AM NOT!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2008 01:31 AM |
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Bak:
Excellent post. Summarizes the situation perfectly, except for this point:Quote:
the average man back then, just like now and ever, does not want to think. That's the problem. He likes the word "freedom", and he wants to be called free
Many people wouldn't agree with you. They would say that "authority" is more important than "freedom". Fortress_Jerusalem is an example, but there are more moderate people who feel that way - that people naturally do immoral things (especially if these things don't harm others), and should be stopped from doing them.
Shares:
I suspect Hitler knew exactly what he was doing.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted September 16, 2008 07:18 AM |
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Quote:
Bak:
Shares:
I suspect Hitler knew exactly what he was doing.
Then he was evil.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted September 17, 2008 09:07 AM |
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The two world wars started because when the world was already divided into area of influences by the the superpowers of the time (Great Britain, France, USA, Russia) a new player (Germany) wanted a share, the other powers didn't agree and the rest is history....
Now USA claims to be the only superpower and doesn't want to share that status with Russia and China. Let's just hope that this time history won't repeat its self.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 17, 2008 09:34 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Bak:
Shares:
I suspect Hitler knew exactly what he was doing.
Then he was evil.
I don't believe that Hitler can be classified as Evil. I don't think any human is "evil". Evil is just a word, a title, a trait we give to peple if we 1) Envy them 2) Hate them 3) are disgusted their actions 4) all three former points.
I doubt Evilness is something that can be commented on by other persons. For the record, some people see Hitler as a saint, while other hate him more than an other person that ever walked on the planet. Fact is, Hitler has a Country to Govern, a nation to lead. He has rebuild Germany almost single-handedly, rebuild it out of the mess it had fallen into after WW1. In that case, he'd deserve the Credit of Germany and it's inhabitants. But, there is more
Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, creating the most Horrible War in the History of Mankind. WW2 had many effects, like the Holocaust, the Increase of power for Communism and Socialism, etc...
Hitler acted what he thought was good, both for him and Germany. He thought (incorrectly, no misunderstandings there) the Jewish population was a scourge on Germany's greatness. He wanted to get rid of them, and tried different methods: He wanted to discourage them to live in Germany, by making thme the subject of petty jokes and harrassment. During he wanted to deport them, not to camps (yet), but to the isle of Madagascar, far from Germany, where they could live in peace, and out of Hitler's worries. Only when Germany was losing the War Hilter became a lot less lenient (if he ever was lenient, in the first place). He always was a power-hungry demagogue, who feared for his position (what if Germany DID lose?). He wanted to reorganise Germany, thus fortifying his position. He Adopted the "Endlösung" to the "Jew-problem". He massively deported them to Concentration Camps, where he let them be exterminated. His happened between '43 and '45, untill the Soviets liberated the Camps.
What Hitler ordered there, is without a doubt one of the most gruesome and unnessecairily Genocides in history. I say Genocides, as the Jews were the only ones who were deliberately "exterminated". The other prisoners,(Criminals, Communists, Prisoners of War, Jehova Witnesses, Homosexuals, etc...) continued they daily regime.
Yes, Hitler did this on purpose. He wasn't a emotionly-unstable man, he was cunning mastermind whose hunger for power killed Millions.
But Evil? I doubt it. Though very powerhungry, I know he wanted to have the best for his Country, which he loved more than anything else.
What if Hitler didn't start WW2? He would be celebrated in Germany as the most Glorious leader after Otto von Bismarck. WW2 Was inevitable though. It was mainly a struggle between Nazism and Communism, and if Hitler didn't start it, the Russians would've instead, I'm sure of that
What if he won the War? He would've been remembered as a demigod, untill National-Socialism fell. history is always looking positively towards the winners, while the losers are the Mosters. If Hitler won ,eh'd be the Honourable leader, and the Allies, Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt would be the Despicable dirtbags.
So, does that make him Evil? I doubt that
This brings us back to the subject, where Baklava made an excellent post on the Subject ( ), but I like to go a step further: I don't even think Nations are evil, as the idea of Evil is different from person to person. One thinks Osama Bin Laden is a Saint, other think he's a Monster.
Evil globally doesn't exist, no race can label one person evil, and no person can lable a race evil. The same goes for good. Aligntement is a though thing to judge, but infact no one is appropriate to judge it at all.
Conclusion: Discussions about Good and Evil are completely pointless, as they ALL are funded upon self-righteousness and opinions rather than Arguements, Facts and the Truth
Thank you for your time
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted September 19, 2008 09:23 AM |
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yes, I agree with the generalization of the average american man. Some of course (even most, some would say) might be overweight, some might be under average IQ, but they're still honest and love their country and fight for justice. The reason why I brought that up is because you can't ignore the overweight problem in USA. Its not their fault. McDonalds is mostly to blame, tho again they're just trying to make a living in the world.
Hitler was entirely to blame for WW2. Not the Germans. People still hate the germans though, but the only thing you could ever blame them for is that they didn't try and stop the madness. Germans mostly weren't the ones that were affected, Jews and Europe in general were. Germans didn't want to get in trouble, they just wanted to keep on living life as usual. They were probably even proud of their expanded territory for a bit (till Russia cleared that up).
Why are whole countries being insulted and stereotyped because of their leaders? For example, before the whole bush-9/11-war in iraq thing , USA was thought of much differently. The Land of Opppurtunity, of Justice, of Wealth. Its the leaders that place countries in a bad light, not the people. USA still is great. Not perfect, by FAR, but still a good country. Big and Rich. How much better can you get?
-E.B.
BTW, I lived in the USA for seven years. So I should know.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted September 19, 2008 09:28 AM |
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and anyway, I'm not saying I'm pleased with USA. I don't like their continued racism towards Russia, for example. People still like USA, anyway. The real question is not about the USA, its about stereotyped countries like Russia. For example, I've read that England is starting to pick on russia in the newspapers and stuff. 'The Honest English Gentleman Couldn't Possibly Expect The Horrible Cunning And Sneakiness Of The Russian People.' What the hell? I've been in Russia. It's ok there. Everything's cheap, there aren't too many rich people, yes, but they're a damn bit kinder than any other person from any other country.
Quote:
It was mainly a struggle between Nazism and Communism, and if Hitler didn't start it, the Russians would've instead, I'm sure of that
not sure if you're insulting russia (you'd better not be  ) but just saying that nazism should be exterminated. So don't blame.
Anyone from Russia here?
In case ur wondering, I'm Russian but was born in USA. Weird combination isnt it?
srry bout the double signature
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 19, 2008 09:54 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 10:00, 19 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
Hitler was Entirely to blame for World War Two
Sorry to say this, but get your facts straight. Due to the ethnic Tensions between Poles, German and Russian, the war was inevitable. If Hitler didn't declare war upon Poland, the Russians would've done, that's the reason they concluded the Molotov-Ribentopf pact with Germany right befroe the War, where both Parties devided the Spoils of the Polish War befroe it had even started. France as a Direct Ally of Poland Attacked Germany, who invaded Poland, but they would've attacked the USSR if they had attacked Poland. Both Germany and the USSR were hated at that time, the former because of WWI (not because of being Nazi), while the Latter was hated because they had assassinated the Royal Family in an Undemocratic Coup d'état. That SAME Royal family, the Romanovs, had blood ties all over Europe, mainly in Poland, Germany and the UK. As for WW2, Germany became the Underdog because Hitler invaded Poland thus Angering France, the UK, the USA, etc...
Hilter knew he would be at war with France for invading Poland, but hoped the Uk would stay out of it. War with France was nessecairy, as they had taken the Elsas and Lotharia from Germany after WW2, and Hitler wanted to unify all "Germans" in One Empire (Hence the the slogan "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer"
Quote:
Germans mostly weren't the ones that were affected, Jews and Europe in general were.
Apart froim the Jewish ethnic minority, the aftermath of the War didn't affect ANY country more than Germany. The patents of all German Inventions were declared ivalid, deminisihng their Technological lead. Their country was split in two parts for 44 years, They fell down on economic, etc... No other country was affected by WW2 as much as Germany
Quote:
They were probably even proud of their expanded territory for a bit (till Russia cleared that up).
Expanded Territory? They LOST BOTH WW1 and WW2, they IMPOSSIBLE were able to gain land. In fact, they lost a quarter of their land after WW2!
Anyway, Enough WW2, I guess Angelit doesn't like this
Quote:
Why are whole countries being insulted and stereotyped because of their leaders?
The answer is simple: The Leader is the Face of the Country, the one who announces the decisions etc. He mostly isn't the mastermind behind those plans. The American President is the Face and Head of the Nation, but his closest advisors are the neck and are able to turn it into any direction. Truthfully, Standing in the Shadows, is much more bareable than standing in full sunlight.
Quote:
For example, before the whole bush-9/11-war in iraq thing , USA was thought of much differently. The Land of Opppurtunity, of Justice, of Wealth. Its the leaders that place countries in a bad light, not the people. USA still is great. Not perfect, by FAR, but still a good country. Big and Rich. How much better can you get?
Sadly, the USA are, as the Most Powerfull country in the world, the best scapegoat. The should have their "share" in every conflict in the world. The Most powerfull country can permit itself to sit back in a corner and watch, because that will lead to great dislike amongst the other states. Being the most powerfull is a poisoned gift: Your adversairies are envious, spitefull, Hypocritical or Sycophantical. If you succeed if being a good leader, you are Celebrated and Famous, if you fail, the people will be ungratefull and Hate-breathing. So it has always been , thus it always will be.
About Evil: USA are not evil, as aligntement is something Subjective, and depends form person to person. I can (only an example) say that Angelito is a Jerk, while Pandora thinks he's the best moderator of them all (this is just an example!!)
I can think Person A is An evil, self-righteous scumbag, while Person B thinks person A is a good, helpfull person.
It all depend on points of view, experience, influence from others, Culture, Morals and belief.
There is NO universal aligntement, none can think of an event, a nation, a person that is considered Good or evil by everyone.
As for the USa evil? I repeat my point, it is not.
EDIT:
Quote:
Quote:
It was mainly a struggle between Nazism and Communism, and if Hitler didn't start it, the Russians would've instead, I'm sure of that
not sure if you're insulting russia (you'd better not be ) but just saying that nazism should be exterminated. So don't blame.
I fail to see what's insulting about that. Nazism and Communism is fact are basically the same system, the one is Extremely Right-wing and the other is extremely left-wing. Both were exceptionally cruel, and both are near death. You did forget that Russia was a part of the USSR in that period, and that "Russians" was used as a synonym for "Sovjets".
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted September 19, 2008 11:27 AM |
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the difference between nazism and comunism is that nazism was eradicated but the western powers just watched how eastern european countries were subjugated under comunism and did absolutely nothing; Romanians have been waiting for the americans to save them from '47 but it was all for nothing, luckily the communism fell in '89.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 20, 2008 12:39 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:54, 22 Sep 2008.
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I will delete about that last 20 posts within the next 2 days. If u wanna save your posts copy them into the thread baklava created and mentioned/linked above.
This is not about selfish, altruism, subjective or objective, it is about "Are the United States of America evil?".
Edit:
Thread cleaned.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 22, 2008 10:17 AM |
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ahem,to qoute you lex
Quote:
Sorry to say this, but get your facts straight.
Quote:
I fail to see what's insulting about that. Nazism and Communism is fact are basically the same system, the one is Extremely Right-wing and the other is extremely left-wing. Both were exceptionally cruel, and both are near death. You did forget that Russia was a part of the USSR in that period, and that "Russians" was used as a synonym for "Sovjets".
all of the bolded text are wrong:
Quote:
Nazism and Communism is fact are basically the same system,
wrong,there are incredible differencex both in ideology and both in execution. Nazism is extreme nationalism IE my race is better then yours,and must control the world. communism is about equal rights and wealth,IE you cannot be any better,richer or stronger then i am,if were doing the something. share we must!
Quote:
Both were exceptionally cruel, and both are near death.
This is also wrong
Nazism ideology was infect cruel because it does speaks about destroying the 'vermin races' as they could it (Jews and gypsies) and enslaving the 'lower races' again im quoting the Nazis here (which are slaves and Arabs).
Communism was not Cruel in ideology,but in excectuion,you cannot blame Communism for Stalin acts,its like generalizing all over again.
Quote:
"Russians" was used as a synonym for "Sovjets".
Also wrong: USSR was an empire like,consisting of many states,however Russia was only one of them. Another Country under the control of USSR would have it citizens could soviets when the Russians are could Russians.
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types in obscure english
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 22, 2008 10:27 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 10:35, 22 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
Nazism and Communism is fact are basically the same system,
wrong,there are incredible differencex both in ideology and both in execution. Nazism is extreme nationalism IE my race is better then yours,and must control the world. communism is about equal rights and wealth,IE you cannot be any better,richer or stronger then i am,if were doing the something. share we must!
They were different in theory, but in practice? In Practice, they were the same systems, only difference that Communism is Extreme left-wing and Nazism Extreme Right-wing. And share? You mean "if someone isn't able to get anything and stays with nothing, then everyone should have nothing" That different that share. it's rather everyone has as much as eachother => Everyone has 'almost nothing). Communism is so easty to corrupt; while the population sufferzs, they party members get things that aren't even sold (examples are Bananas, Mayonaise, Coca Cola, High-quality Toilet paper, etc)
Quote:
Quote:
Both were exceptionally cruel, and both are near death.
This is also wrong
Nazism ideology was infect cruel because it does speaks about destroying the 'vermin races' as they could it (Jews and gypsies) and enslaving the 'lower races' again im quoting the Nazis here (which are slaves and Arabs).
Communism was not Cruel in ideology,but in excectuion,you cannot blame Communism for Stalin acts,its like generalizing all over again.
Again, I was talking about Practice. Well, you say I generalize Communism with Stalin. I actaully don't My parents have lived in a Communist Country for many years, and the Communist methods different only slighty from Stalins (no Mass Killing. And that's the only difference)
Quote:
Quote:
"Russians" was used as a synonym for "Sovjets".
Also wrong: USSR was an empire like,consisting of many states,however Russia was only one of them. Another Country under the control of USSR would have it citizens could soviets when the Russians are could Russians
lol. I used Russians as a Synomyn for Soviets lol.
Anyway, I don't want to discuss this anymore: it's offtopic lol
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 22, 2008 12:09 PM |
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Sadly, the USA are, as the Most Powerfull country in the world, the best scapegoat.
Hate to burst a bubble there bud, but the US are going down haaaaard. :-P
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted January 04, 2011 03:05 AM |
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@Original post:
Quote:
as Xeroex said,and i want to ask,Why?
What are you thouhts?
my thoughts is that USA isent Evil at all.
They strike one country at time due to the intersts,that any other country would do the same given the power.
There is a fallible modern trend where people try to excuse something merely because there is a rational explanation for it, as though a rational explanation makes a dilemma any less real than what it is.
Yes, technically, of course no other country is any more or less noble than what the US is. They would do the same thing in the U.S.'s position. Circumstance dictates morality.
What's your point?
Are other countries in the U.S.'s position? No, they are not. They are weak in comparison, and therefore have much less potential to heal or harm. It is the ones with power that must be especially meticulously monitored, scrutinized, and criticized, and right now, that is the US. In the next century, perhaps it will be China. It is good that the US currently receives a disproportionate amount of attention and criticism. Since it is by far the greatest shareholder in the world, it should be that way.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2011 03:26 AM |
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why did you necro a now like 3 year old thread? :S lol
still, its an interesting subject
I still agree a 100% with my original statement in this thread that I made years ago
Recently, the US has done more bad than good to the world
It got a bit better than Obama though
Howver what I really HATE is how soooo many countries ADORE and WORSHIP the US
Like Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize two years ago, ehm why? Afaik the US are at war. Ridiculous.
And now its the same with Julian Lassanga and Wikileaks. They reveal lots of nasty stuff the US has done and suddenly, Julian is a terrorist etc. If it where the US that had revealed the same documents except they were from China, like everybody would have praised the US for leaking that information and talk about how evil and communistic China is... -.-
their relation with Israel also annoys me as I believe, israel has broken like a million international laws already -.-
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted January 04, 2011 03:29 AM |
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What the hell? Why did I see this on the 1st page?
edit: I know what happened. I was on HCM and clicked on this thread that somebody was viewing without checking the date.
edit: OMG this thread is nostalgic. I miss Asheera 
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 04, 2011 03:39 AM |
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I'm going to repeat something that I could not have possibly made, but which should have broken this thread long ago, ending it when it was posted.
Quote:
The way I see it, an average American is an honest, loyal, hard working, patriotic man, on a quest to feed his family throughout whatever happens around him.
Then again, so is the average German, yet Germany started two world wars.
It isn't a matter of an ordinary man. We're talking nations here. Governments. Politicians. Leaders. Those never really had anything to do with ordinary people, except when ordinary people get pissed and cut off some heads - after which another politician, using different words but same thinking, comes to power.
American citizens didn't want any of these wars. Neither did the Iraqis. Or the above-mentioned Germans back at the start of the 20th century. No man wants aggression and death. But when your leader comes around and tells you you're threatened, of course you'll pick up your arms and defend your homes. That's what terrorists are fed since childhood - "Americans are an insult to Allah and his laws, they attack us, endanger us in our homes, and we have no choice but to fight them". Now replace "Allah" with "democracy" and tell me if it sounds familiar.
No one ever believed his side was the first to attack. No one wants to believe it. As far as each side is concerned, they're all defending their homes.
During the crusades, people of low birth were recruited and fed by priests with stories of Muslims at their gates, conquering, pillaging and occupying all before them, and depicted as a direct threat against their homes. The Church relied on the people's fear, loyalty and lack of education and thinking to drag massive amounts of people to get slaughtered on some forgotten battlefield somewhere in the holy land. Because the West, back then, too, has failed to realize that the deserts of Middle East are not, and can't be, their lands. That they simply do not belong there. Just like Muslims could never rule the West, the West could never rule the Islamic world. And ordinary people could not (and still can't) understand that because they never thought of it as a battle of domination - they always perceived it as defending their homes against the foreign aggressor.
That goes to show - the average man back then, just like now and ever, does not want to think. That's the problem. He likes the word "freedom", and he wants to be called free, but if he ever got it, he wouldn't know what to do with it. That's why leaders existed since the dawn of time - people, much like cattle (perhaps even a little worse), desperately need someone to tell them what to do. Someone to think for them. Someone who'll say "do this and it will all turn out great". They can't organize themselves. They need a system, and systems need enforcement. The system raises you, feeds you, makes you love it - becomes a sort of your parent, your saviour, your god - and it knows what's best for you. It has plans for you. And when it calls you, you have to answer. You have to defend your system, your idea, and with it, your home and loved ones. In that way, democracy, patriotism, the Church and Allah all function similarly. They're all ideas, systems, which humans created in order to protect themselves from their own stupidity.
It's not about the USA as a nation. God knows how screwed up the world would be if my country ruled it It's about the leaders from all sides, squabbling in their senseless battles and feeding people whatever people want to be fed with. While ordinary plebs do their chores and hope to come out of the entire mess alive - cause that's the way it is.
Now, on to the international level.
Yes, the USA has its share of blood on its hands. A lot of it. Just like China, and Russia. No better, no worse. Chinese shoot students in the Tiananmen square, Soviet tanks go out on streets in Poland, Americans send thousands to senselessly kill and die in Vietnam. Chinese brutally quell unrest in Tibet, Russia fights for its interests in Georgia, the USA attacks Iraq. It goes in circles. It's what all superpowers do. There are no good guys there.
Which leads us to another point that Americans often make. "If we participated less in global affairs, the world would still complain."
See, the USA, as a nation striving to rule the world, makes enemies, but also needs to make friends. It will attack a country, but it will also send aid to another country. That's favoritism, yes, but it's rather calculated and pays off rather well. During the breakup of Yugoslavia (to name an example close to me), the USA stood pretty much against the Serbs, and hence many of my people dislike them, but they gained new "friends" (if that word can be used in international diplomacy) in the form of Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Albania, and now Kosovo from that whole affair. They attacked Vietnam, which improved relations with France among other things. They built up relations with former Soviet republics such as Georgia in order to entangle Russia. And so on. There will always be some people whom they'll help while making lives worse for some others. Which allows them to say that whatever they do, half the world will complain, and that serves as a great excuse to continue doing the superpower stuff.
I'm tired of typing so, to conclude:
Is USA evil? No.
Is USA good? No.
What's up with it then? Who knows? Most people blame the government, and maybe I'm among those people, but no one wakes up in the morning and says "Well, I'm gonna be evil today". Whatever they do, they're doing cause they believe it's right. And no one has the firepower to tell them otherwise. We could say that they're just like the governments of every other superpower in the world. I for one can't hate them for it nor objectively say whether they're evil or not.
I can just feel compassion for people that suffer and die because of all of that.
I cannot bring myself to hate my country, nor can I hate any country that has abused its power over the years. If any one nation rises and has more power than every other single nation, then they are either hated because they have that power and they don't use it to give every other country what every other country wants, or they are hated because they use said power to keep themselves alive longer and in power longer, thus making themselves hated longer.
The US is not evil.
No country that abused its power was evil.
No country is evil.
There is no truly evil country. Only those that struggle to survive with their way of life intact.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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