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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 08, 2011 12:18 AM |
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WW2? That is a really complex issue.
On one hand Hitler got the industry back up and running, more or less reclaimed all of Germany's resources out of the people who was running the industry, set up a nice but of corruption with no tools against corruption, and it derailed.
He also started a war, a great expansion, which he had support for, since there was a lot of hatred against the French and the British.
The only sad thing about them Nazi's is that they didn't stand for their Holocaust, during the end of the war they bombed their own concentration camps to hide that it ever happened.
In the end, they was a bit of hypocrisy running around. But for the most, they ironically did stand for most of what they did. Which is a good thing, even if they did things we view as "evil" by our ethics and moral.
If there was no hatred against the jews in the people, there would never have been a holocaust of them spesifically, because the common man would not support it. A lot of nazi never knew about the extermination either.
But for the most, there was a tension in the German people, if there was not a tension, Hitler would just had been another dictator.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 08, 2011 12:58 AM |
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So let me get this straight, it's "good" that a few million people are brutally massacred in many different ways as long as your country stands up for itself? Many people in Germany did realize that many horrible things happened in the concentration camps, and even wrote about them in their journals and diaries. After the war, most people didn't want to admit that they knew what was going on and have the horrible feeling that they could have stopped what was happening.
Hitler's influence was very strong, and he did do many good things, but that does not excuse him of the things he did, weather he believed in his cause or not. He was crazy, but this is also not an excuse. If sticking to your morals causes the deaths of many others, then your morals deserve to be broken and die.
Ultimately, the idea of the only good being following what you think is right leads to anarchy, the opposite of the socialist cause you uphold.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 08, 2011 01:27 AM |
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But I don't support such a thing 
But still, this is about society, not individuals. For the most, Hitler and his Third Reich followed their own morals, and a lot of the population confirmed their morals.
But lets get back to what I said: When a government has a moral, it appears to have the same moral as the people, and it fails to have that moral, and then it does something random out of the blue instead of cleaning up its act.
If we lived trembling under the heel of a monarch and his cabinet of overlords attempting to plot against each other for more power, it would be different. We never elected them, we would have nothing to do with them except that we are citizens of the state they run. It would just be unfortunate for us. If it got bad enough, we would start a revolution, blood would be spilled.
If said monarch and cabinet of overlords had the exact same moral as the people, and used it like the people think it would be a good idea? It would be good for the people, at the least from a ideal perspective. In reality quite a few grim things could have happened.
But still, where did I say it was good? I only said it was "great" for the Nazi to at the least partially stand for what they did stand for, and they did have support in the population, which again means they also reflected some of the peoples moral. That we can say in retrospective "what a evil bunch" is more or less why we invoke it as "Godwins law", in attempts to foil debates 
Eugenics sort of had quite the downhill after the war, historys powerful heel is standing there, making sure we won't be doing the exact same thing once more, in a short period of time. Nobody who is "normal" would defend the end results of the nazi regime and its genocide, but if we ignore that part, they sure did quite a lot of stuff that could be considered nice and progress for society.
But lets say we had a government doing unspeakable horrors, and the population supports that, it is a moral in society. A perfect reflection. Good idea? Bad Idea? Frankly, it would be interesting. At the least nobody would lift a finger of what is happening, and they have no reason to.
At the least compare it.
But besides, there is no good and evil, no greater or lesser. Only what we image and make our systems out of, and how well those cogs we construct turn.
Anarchy is pointless, because it implies a system where humans would not band together in a large enough fictional entity to be able to sway the rest of society. It would either fall apart the moment it was created, or slowly die while societies will form yet once again. Simply because we are human.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 08, 2011 01:37 AM |
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At the least compare it.
Ok, to what shall I compare it to in the world today? Give me an example. Also, if the world was apathetic enough to condone mass genocides, this society would more than likely destroy itself through its brutality, killing most of its population before being overthrown by its people.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 08, 2011 12:21 PM |
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You are not reading what I am saying. Or my English skill fails me to send my opinion to you.
Reread what I have said, and say where it becomes unclear.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted January 08, 2011 02:52 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 14:53, 08 Jan 2011.
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Ok, I would very much have liked to participate in this discussion, even though I was aware that it would quickly derail to simple bashing of everyone who tried to state an opinion. Since I dislike reading mindless bashing, and moreso very stupid discussions that derail to the end station of Hitler, I know ask you: Is there any part of this thread that actually did squeese a drop of sensible discussion? Cuz, I might want to read that select part.
EDIT: Right, I've only read the first five posts or so, but I just assumed that Hitler is already involved.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted January 09, 2011 01:49 PM |
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My rifle is over there, take it and shoot [/sort of serious humor]
That is a very funny joke my friend, but it is a good thing that it is only a joke. Violence and death only makes this flawed system stronger. On September 11th 2001 the United States was attacked by foreign terrorists.
After the attack, cities and towns were covered in American flags and ultimately President Bush used people’s patriotic sentiments to scrape away some of their civil liberties and as a pretext for invading Iraq.
I realized then that countries and tyrants need fear and violence to survive. Fear of that dangerous outsider is what allows national governments to whip people up into a rabid frenzy, and yet turns them into sheep when they want to subjugate them.
I know not what system should replace the nation state system, but what I do know is that if you break fear then you break the backbone of every country in the world.
So thank you for the offer but I do not need this (hands you back your rifle).
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 10, 2011 05:03 PM |
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No, America is not evil. She is a shining light in the darkness.  She fought for her own freedom and then began fighting for the freedom of others.
Sounds like what Hitler would have thought about his own country. Except your version is far more conceited in that you actually believe the world will thank you for leaving your territory-marking excrement all over the place.
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Because of her great beauty some hate her.
That's a pretty assumptuous and twisted way of think-- Why am I even argueing as if you are actually capable of reasonable thought.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 10, 2011 09:52 PM |
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the inevitable
Certain member is simply a patriot. This means he will repeat with pride the same stuff again and again. And honestly believe in it. Like most of patriots do.
So forget trying to tell him he's wrong or that there is no plain white country, or plain black for that matter. He won't listen to your arguments.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted January 10, 2011 10:00 PM |
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US is no evil, just tacticians. The empire is still alive and lots of ppl are just pissed but anyways.. evil is a matter of perspective. Once the US fall (cause all empires fall) there will be another country to replace its so called "evilness" and there will be another thread in this forum.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2011 01:29 PM |
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US is no evil, just tacticians. The empire is still alive and lots of ppl are just pissed but anyways.. evil is a matter of perspective. Once the US fall (cause all empires fall) there will be another country to replace its so called "evilness" and there will be another thread in this forum.
Doesn't anyone besides me and del-diblio have a problem with that? I don't want to be a victem of the next group of "tacticians" do you?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 11, 2011 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:47, 11 Jan 2011.
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Certain member is simply a patriot. This means he will repeat with pride the same stuff again and again. And honestly believe in it. Like most of patriots do.
So forget trying to tell him he's wrong or that there is no plain white country, or plain black for that matter. He won't listen to your arguments.
Certain members are anti-America. This means they will repeat with pride the same anti-America mantras again and again. And honestly believe in it. Like most anti-America folks do.
So forget trying to tell them they are wrong or that America is not evil, morally repulsive, the reason death and diseases exists, the reason for poverty in the world, why some people get cancer, why dogs sometimes get run over on the highway, or why they had a bad hair day or gained a few pounds this month. They won't listen to your arguments.
I on the other hand listen to all arguments and weigh them on the basis of real world facts and life experience. Certain members are hardly out of diapers (and some still wear them I think ) and will change the political views they have been indoctrinated with when they get more real world experience under their belt.
I think certain members would benefit from learning to research the issues rather than accepting that whatever Chris Matthews says is truth.
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Revelation
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted January 11, 2011 04:03 PM |
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Certain members are hardly out of diapers (and some still wear them I think  and will change the political views they have been indoctrinated with when they get more real world experience under their belt.
So basically everyone who doesn't share your political opinion must be a toddler?
Gee Elodin, that wasn't very nice...
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 12, 2011 01:49 AM |
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Sigh... Why did I bring this thread back to life... Blast.
Oh well. Time for a sitting on the fence argument. Yes, America has done some bad things, but not as many as some members would have us believe. It has also made some hypocritical decisions, but they do not dominate all of their politics. So one cannot say that America does no good. Would you rather have thousands of children die of starvation? Would you rather have countries fall apart as war ravages them? Any order, even totalitarian, is better than absolute chaos.
But this is not to say that America is the pure, shining star that some members say it is. It does commit morally reprehensible acts and it does at in a hypocritical manner rather often. For instance, America's imperialist period. America had fought a war to liberate itself from a country that had been smothering it (Great Britain), and then the Americans decided to go do the same thing to the small islands in the Pacific, Like Hawaii, and basically stole Cuba from the Spanish. Sure, they paid them for it, but they trounced the Spaniards for the sinking of a single ship which many consider sabotage. Americans have done things like this ever since, taking any small matter and blowing it out of proportion for the purpose of spreading their influence. For this, I would have to say that the quote:
Quote:
She is a shining star
is inaccurate. I would have to say that America is a dull star, for she does do good things as well as bad, but she is still set upon a pedestal, either as a thing to avoid or as a thing to envy.
Anyone who wants to tell me I'm wrong, feel free. But be sure that it isn't a bigoted argument and that you have many facts to go along with it. Also be prepared for a counter-argument.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 13, 2011 12:21 AM |
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Quote:
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There is a fallible modern trend where people try to excuse something merely because there is a rational explanation for it, as though a rational explanation makes a dilemma any less real than what it is.
This is so brillaint I'd like to repeat it. No offense to other posters, I probably just didn't undesrtand the meaning of your message well enough.
Brilliant! But how does this tie into America? Perhaps this would work better on the "Is war evil?" thread.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2011 11:15 AM |
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America is far from perfect, but it is one of the greatest nations on this earth, and other than the more recent developments I have seen in the country under the Republican and Democrat leadership of late (last 10 years) I am fairly proud to have America as a neighbour to my own country (which is also not perfect).
We live in a flawed world, but at least sometimes America tries to make it slightly better while it does it's own other things.
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Youtube has terminated my account without reason.
Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 30, 2011 03:52 AM |
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We live in a flawed world, but at least sometimes America tries to make it slightly better while it does it's own other things.
Actually America is rather notorious for SAYING they defend freedom and democracy and all that other jazz while at the same time supporting dictatorial regimes and giving them material to suppress civilians.
HAAAHAAA I'm just kidding! You thought that bullsnow was true didn't you? Naaah. They really do hate America for their freedom, obviously.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 30, 2011 07:35 AM |
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Actually America is rather notorious for SAYING they defend freedom and democracy and all that other jazz while at the same time supporting dictatorial regimes and giving them material to suppress civilians.
HAAAHAAA I'm just kidding! You thought that bullsnow was true didn't you? Naaah. They really do hate America for their freedom, obviously.
Sarcasm...? (I hope)
But then you remember... There are people who both support and zealously believe in both extremes in every country (Except North Korea, where they really don't get to look at the outside world... I like living in a country where I can make friends with people from the Balkans and Europe).
And yes, people do hate us for having the freedom to leave, but not choose to do it. They hate us for throwing our weight around, when there is no reason not to. Some people hate our capitalistic system, where anyone can succeed, but many people fail.
At least, that is the freedom you were talking about, right?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 30, 2011 01:16 PM |
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No, he is talking about their unconditional love of not being objective AND respecting their own morals.
You support dictators, you go at war towards random nations, don't plan it properly, and make more terrorists.
Look at Egypt: 50 years of dictatorship, but snow didn't really hit the fan until recently, and what are they saying? Instead of saying: "We will support whoever wins", which is what you are actually doing, but instead you are being despicable and saying: "We support both the dictator and people who are revolting against him.". This is a oxymoron.
You either support people, do not support people, or don't care about it.
Last time I checked, US citizens have a moral on being honest, yes?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 30, 2011 01:22 PM |
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Quote:
I like living in a country where I can make friends with people from the Balkans and Europe
You'd probably like it even more if it had an educational system that taught you that the Balkans are in Europe. 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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This thread is pages long: 
