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| Thread: Resources |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 01:28 PM |
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Resources
To be honest, I never understood and liked the buying of units with Gold in Strategy games. I mean, come on, they're not Mercenaries waiting to be hired They are troops from your town.
So, I'd propose the following resources, also to provide more realism:
Wood
Stone
Metal
Crystal
Sulfur
Mercury
Food
Gold
(of course, the numbers should be a lot higher than in H5 to provide more "roundings" without fractional parts (like Gold is now))
Let's take them step by step:
Wood - used for many structures (for example, the Sylvan town has many wood buildings), but also has a lot of uses for units (which have wooden equipment). Generated by the Sawmill (adv. map object)
Stone - used mainly for structures, but also for some stone units (like the Gargoyles). Generated by the Quarry (adv. map object)
Metal - used only for units which have metal equipment. Generated by the Ore Mine (adv. map object)
Crystal - used mainly for spell casting units, but also for other units with some magical equipment/aura (for example, the Ghosts/Spectres cost Crystal). Generated by the Crystal Cavern (adv. map object)
Sulfur - used mainly for some spell casting units, but also for other fire-oriented units. Generated by the Sulfur Deposit (adv. map object)
Mercury - used for some spell casting units, but also for units which have some strange/evil equipment (for example, the Pit Lord's Weapon, the ArchAngel's and Death Knight's Sword. etc). Generated by the Alchemist Lab (adv. map object)
Food - used for almost all units, unless they are mechanical or elemental. In the case of Undead creatures, the "food" is actually Dark Energy or something like that. Generated IN TOWN (like Gold is now) - perhaps also an adv. map object? I'm not really sure...
Gold - used only for Artifacts. Generated by Gold Mines (adv. map object - but these should be rare)
There is still the Marketplace where you can trade resources with another, including Gold and Food
Now let's take some examples:
The Sylvan town buildings cost mostly Wood, but also some Stone (for example, the Stone Circle - the tier 4 dwelling)
Some towns have buildings which cost a mixed value of Wood and Stone, like Haven.
There are also towns which cost mostly Stone, like Dungeon.
Now, for the units:
The most important resource is food (which is generated in town, like the Gold now) since ALL creatures cost food (except Elementals and Mechanical), even undead creatures! (for them, let's say this "food" is Dark Energy or something like that - or Blood for Vampires, etc, but it would be pretty pointless to create another resource for this)
Let's see some units and how they would cost (no numbers, I'm not sure of the balance)
Peasant -> Food and a little Wood
Conscript -> Food and Metal
Squire -> Food and Lots of Metal
Griffin -> Only Food (but lots)
Imperial Griffin -> Food and Metal
Inquisitor -> Food, Crystal and some Metal
ArchAngel -> Food and Mercury
Seraph -> Food and Sulfur
Stone Gargoyle -> Lots of Stone
Elemental Gargoyle -> Stone and Sulfur
Steel Golem -> Lots of Metal
Fire Dragon -> Lots of Sulfur
Magma Dragon -> Lots of Sulfur and Stone
Skeleton Warrior -> Food, Wood and Metal
Spectre -> Food and Crystal
Vampire -> Food and Metal
Vampire Lord -> Food and Mercury
ArchLich -> Food, Crystal and Mercury
Wraith -> Food, Crystal and a little Metal
Spectral Dragon -> Food and Mercury
Pit Lord -> Food, Metal and Mercury
Blood Fury -> Food and Metal
Hydra -> Lots of Food
Shadow Mistress -> Food and Sulfur
Shadow Dragon -> Food and Sulfur
Black Dragon -> Food, Sulfur and Mercury
Red Dragon -> Food, Sulfur and Metal
Hunter -> Food and Wood
Druid -> Food, Crystal and a little Wood
Unicorn -> Lots of Food and some Crystal
Fire Elemental -> Lots of Sulfur
Water Elemental -> Lots of Crystal
Earth Elemental -> Lots of Stone
Air Elemental -> Lots of Crystal
... I think they're enough to get the point
btw this will also provide more strategies - I mean, with the system with have now with Gold, when your town is fully built the mines become useless...
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted October 15, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 14:20, 15 Oct 2008.
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You don't think gold and metal should be used for buildings? ? And in some cases, I also think the buildings should cost rare resources like mercury, crystal and sulfur... Can you imagine the H5 Dungeon city built with only wood and stone? Take a look at the picture on: http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/dungeon_intro.shtml and you'll know what I mean...
Another question: When talking about food, where, in town, do you think the food should be produced? I mean most of what we consider as "food" is produces by agriculture and farming... Are you planning the demons, warlocks or the mages doing farming? No offence, but I just wondered what you ment it to be like...
Btw, I must say that I don't agree to your statement about the gold mines being useless when your town is fully built.. IMO gold is always welcome. You can trade it for other resources, trade it for artefacts, train creatures (when beeing Haven) save it for creatures from towns you'll capture later... etc.
However, this is a good idea,
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 02:17 PM |
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Quote:
You don't think gold and metal should be used for buildings?? And in some cases, I also think the buildings should cost rare resources like mercury, crystal and sulfur... Can you imagine the H5 Dungeon city built with only wood and stone? Take a look at the picture on: http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/dungeon_intro.shtml and you'll know what I mean...
Hmm, I agree here, some buildings should definitely cost Crystal and Mercury, etc. In fact, when I made the post, that's what I had in mind, but I didn't write it 
Metal? I don't know, what buildings are made of metal?
And Gold? I don't think buildings should cost gold, are they made of gold or something?
Quote:
Another question: When talking about food, where, in town, do you think the food should be produced? I mean most of what we consider as "food" is produces by agriculture and farming... Are you planning the demons, warlocks or the mages doing farming? No offence, but I just wondered what you ment it to be like...
Haven may have Farms, Necro some Pillar of Bones (for Dark Energy, that's Necro's food), Dungeon some Fungus Farms, Sylvan Berries, Demons I don't know, probably they just go hunting other creatures to eat them ()
(yes, I realize I take a lot of ideas from Spellforce  )
Quote:
Btw, I must say that I don't agree to your statement about the gold mines being useless when your town is fully built.. IMO gold is always welcome. You can trade it for other resources, trade it for artefacts, train creatures (when beeing Haven) save it for creatures from towns you'll capture later... etc.
I meant all mines except Gold Mines, sorry.
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted October 15, 2008 02:26 PM |
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I like the ideia...
at end of every scenario we have lots of useless resources, only one is requered to reacruit tier 7 creatures... but I think what we have to spend gold to hire creatures: yes, they aren't mercenaries, but they need money! how will they feed their family without money? we have to pey their wages! the gold payed when we recruit represent this...
i like have to pay other resources, but not food (... what will a hydra do with gold?  ) ok... pay gold and other resources is a very good ideia: improove the resources productions in mines *no only 1 per day!*
peasant costs only a little gold...
archer costs gold and wood
footman costs gold and lots of metal
griffin... gold...
priest gold, crystal and gems (?)
cavalier gold, a little wood and many metal!
angel gold and cristal...
*I'm from brasil, and I dont know how to speak english very well...
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 02:29 PM |
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You have a point with the "wages" but you said yourself: What will a Hydra/Griffin do with Gold?
I think we just need to give it food (and of course, train it, but that's not a resource )
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted October 15, 2008 02:32 PM |
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Quote:
Metal? I don't know, what buildings are made of metal?
Maybe not whole buildings, but there's always some details made in metal.. the roof, a statue, etc.
Quote:
And Gold? I don't think buildings should cost gold, are they made of gold or something?
Maybe they don't use gold for the buildings.. But then we need a totally new system, to compensate for the high gold cost of the buildings...
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted October 15, 2008 02:40 PM |
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you are right... but you have to pay some one to train it!
... many building are made by metal! *if you look at dwarven fortress... - if we use your resouses sistem dwarves will use only metal and stone... no wood *SAVE the forests!!- *
and gold... yes, we have to pay the wages for all worker who will build the building! buildings cost gold! we have to hire someone to build this *of course, if are a powerful wizard you only have to say 'abra kadabra' and here is your new building... but it's other story!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 02:42 PM |
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Quote:
if we use your resouses sistem dwarves will use only metal and stone... no wood *SAVE the forests!!- *
And what's wrong if no Wood is used? I mean, it's not like now Dungeon (example) needs a lot of Gems and Mercury (your barely need those)
Also, Wood IS used, for example for Spearwielders and their upgrades, just not for buildings.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 15, 2008 02:42 PM |
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Edited by Snatch at 14:43, 15 Oct 2008.
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I think a new or expanded resource system is a good idea. Especially that creatures need not only gold. But is it really necessary? What can food and other new ressources do what gold can't? I think that gold stood not only for coins but for all sorts of simple goods like food, clothes, ... all along.
I don't see why food should not be produced by map buildings (farms) too. And an ore mine can only produce metal if it has a foundry too.
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Asheera
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Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 02:44 PM |
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Quote:
But is it really necessary?
Well of course it will provide more variety.
Unless of course, you don't like the current system either, and you'd prefer the buildings to cost only gold as well and scrap the other resources completely. I'd say it would be a lot less interesting with only gold - that's why I want to expand this to creatures as well, to not cost only gold.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted October 15, 2008 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
I think a new or expanded resource system is a good idea. Especially that creatures need not only gold. But is it really necessary? What can food and other new ressources do what gold can't? I think that gold stood not only for coins but for all sorts of simple goods like food, clothes, ... all along.
I must say I agree to this, though it's a lovely idea...
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted October 15, 2008 02:55 PM |
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dont use wood isn't wrong! I only coment this... u.u
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted October 15, 2008 02:58 PM |
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More variety? Yes. Definately. And thats not a bad thing.
Wouldn't be the next step to introduce some sort of upkeep? I think when introducing food all humanoid creatures would appreciate to eat every day and not just when hired.
Quote:
if we use your resouses sistem dwarves will use only metal and stone... no wood *SAVE the forests!!- *
And how dwarves will make their blacksmiths fires without wood?
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 15, 2008 03:00 PM |
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yes i agree with you Asheera there have to be change an change in resource system, and costs, maintaenance of building and creatures. Now the cost system is simple, but little complexity would be a good chainge. All in all you can buy/train creature in echange of food, wood and other resources or buy the missing resources with Gold, so i think that there should be two prices the rare resource value and gold value.
Nice idea
Quote:
btw this will also provide more strategies - I mean, with the system with have now with Gold, when your town is fully built the mines become useless...
No useless you can sell them and gain more Gold lots os lots of GOLD.
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LordGodric
Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
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posted October 15, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
if we use your resouses sistem dwarves will use only metal and stone... no wood *SAVE the forests!!- *
And how dwarves will make their blacksmiths fires without wood?
...in h5 they live in volcanos with lava rivers... do they need to make fire? they forge what they need in the deepests fire abyss of world!
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted October 15, 2008 03:14 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 15:14, 15 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
Wouldn't be the next step to introduce some sort of upkeep? I think when introducing food all humanoid creatures would appreciate to eat every day and not just when hired.
What kind of upkeep do you mean? The upkeep thing from WC3? I hope not...
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2008 03:33 PM |
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I'd say that in general, some modifications to the resource system would be quite welcome. It's been the same since Heroes 2 - or was that Heroes 1!?
Food: Didn't we just have a thread about this recently? Anyway, I think the idea of units costing Gold for recruitement and Food for upkeep is interesting and could work well. Food would probably be available from town buildings (like Gold) but also from adventure map objects (Farms, whatever) and even in stacks. It does add some interesting new aspects to the game - it might motivate a more balanced, or at least different, building order, and it could have some funny side effects on gameplay - for instance, undead don't eat - and it would add some interesting tactical aspects to skills like Diplomacy - if 200 peasants offer to join you, do you take them in, or do they eat too much?
Btw., something to contemplate: How much food would each creature consume each day? Does 1 peasant consume 1 Food, or 20, 30, or whatever number we choose - and in either case, does a Swordsman and a Priest consume the same (i.e. standard unit for each creature), or do higher-level creatures consume more food? While the former solution might seem more intuitive (i.e. all creatures eat the same) this offers some problems in terms of gameplay, because you would need relatively more food in early game (many (low-level) creatures) than in late game (fewer overall creatures of higher level), which is difficult to implement!
Resources for buildings: While I see the logic of having buildings cost wood and ore, I say no to this suggestion, because it's a poor decision for gameplay. The current system with buildings costing also rare ressources is a very effective way of balancing things and controing game evolution - you dont build Black Dragons in week 2 because you need all those precious resources, and there's simply no way you're gonna find them lying around on a balanced map. To miss out on that option, you're gonna make them cost enourmous amounts of wood/ore instead, which is just going to be a pain.
Resources for units: In general, I'd say yes to this, although not in a strictly "systemized" manner as you suggest. However, I don't see any reason for it only being level 7 units that require precious ressources on recruitement - this could be the case also for level 6, 5, maybe even level 4 units. This, of course, would increase demand of certain ressources in town, and this would make a very handy coupling to the "upgrade mines" feature we discussed in another thread.
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Asheera
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Elite Assassin
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posted October 15, 2008 04:01 PM |
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Well about Food, I didn't want to make it like that with upkeep, etc - It's just a 'normal' resource like the Gold we have now (I know, it's not realistic that you give them food only once, but too much realism sometimes is not good)
And about buildings costing rare resources, sorry for the first post - I actually agreed (in the second post) that I want to cost rare resources as well -> there are even some "magic" buildings with effects, so even for realism it's better to cost crystals and other rare resources.
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2008 04:05 PM |
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To continue on the food discussion: I'm not sure I see a point in having food as a regular ressource on line with Gold - I mean, what would be the point? Ok, I can see some points, like with the rare ressources, you have to split your priorities - but I actually think the long-term upkeep would be a much more interesting aspect of this (even if that was not what you originally had in mind). The latter would add something new - not just in terms of realism, but could actually do good for gameplay also - whereas if you want to add another cost dimension, why not simply use the rare ressources that are already in the game?
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Asheera
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posted October 15, 2008 04:10 PM |
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I agree that it would be more interesting with upkeep.
The "Food" resource in the first post wasn't something really new, it was just like Gold now (but I also suggested creatures to cost resources on top of the "gold" (food) )
It's nothing special about "food", only that it's more real than gold IMO (since you don't "hire" your troops - they're not mercenaries)
Also, there's now a difference between Artifact costs (gold) and creature costs (food)
But I agree that some form of upkeep would be more interesting.
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