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| Thread: Did you know that every HoMM V game is actually a stalemate? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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iohann
Hired Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 04:09 PM |
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Did you know that every HoMM V game is actually a stalemate?
This applies to all maps with only 1 castle for each player and to most of the rest. Genesis included.
I have actually had several good games where I had ~40% more troops and stats than my opponent on e.g. Heritage of Deleb but every time I tried to attack my weak opponent in his castle I lost miserably, just a blowout. Siege is of course not possible at all. With 4000 from capitol it is possible to buy up the entire weekly crop.
Levelling up on opponent’s side and fully controlling it actually gives you nothing. Def. not enough to overcome castle.
There is also a code honour, of course. It prohibits "castle sitting". But then again Lixue makes one of his notorious rushes and comes to me in week3 in genesis. Does the code of honour compel me to commit a suicide and march out to meet him in the open field at once? That's not what they did in Helm's Deep after all. In case described I think I might feel like "resting" for couple of weeks in castle if nothing better comes around 
Lots of balance issues have been discussed and eventually changed but for some reason I have never heard about castle. Bottom line is that "castle is too strong". It is actually strong enough for most games to actually end in stale mate if winning strategy is applied.
Thats how it is... or am I terribly noob-wrong?
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 04:29 PM |
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When I was a beginner I tought the same abt this, but in fact there is no code of honour which prohibits castle sitting (town sitting). Its not dishonorable at all.
But the technique of the attacker is easy. Do not siege, just stop in front of the castle, took all the map with secondaries and wait. Usually this way sooner or later the attacker army will be overwhelming, so its just not reasonable for the defender to wait too long. Of course, there could be very poor maps, where its still worth to do it, but mostly played maps its suicide to town sitting for month.
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iohann
Hired Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
When I was a beginner I tought the same abt this, but in fact there is no code of honour which prohibits castle sitting (town sitting). Its not dishonorable at all.
But the technique of the attacker is easy. Do not siege, just stop in front of the castle, took all the map with secondaries and wait. Usually this way sooner or later the attacker army will be overwhelming, so its just not reasonable for the defender to wait too long. Of course, there could be very poor maps, where its still worth to do it, but mostly played maps its suicide to town sitting for month.
How can you "outgrow" your opponent if there is only 1 castle for each of you? He gets exactly the troops as you do. I don't even think you can outgrow the townsitter enough (to compensate for castle) on Genesis after you take his 2nd town!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 28, 2008 04:35 PM |
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Grab all his dwellings and I'll tell you if you can or not 
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 04:37 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
When I was a beginner I tought the same abt this, but in fact there is no code of honour which prohibits castle sitting (town sitting). Its not dishonorable at all.
But the technique of the attacker is easy. Do not siege, just stop in front of the castle, took all the map with secondaries and wait. Usually this way sooner or later the attacker army will be overwhelming, so its just not reasonable for the defender to wait too long. Of course, there could be very poor maps, where its still worth to do it, but mostly played maps its suicide to town sitting for month.
How can you "outgrow" your opponent if there is only 1 castle for each of you? He gets exactly the troops as you do. I don't even think you can outgrow the townsitter enough (to compensate for castle) on Genesis after you take his 2nd town!
U can grab more level ups, gold mines and stat boosters around opponent side
End of day, townseat will be disadvantage.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 28, 2008 04:45 PM |
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Not to mention the mind-numbing that comes from needlessly prolonging a game.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 28, 2008 04:51 PM |
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Quote:
Grab all his dwellings and I'll tell you if you can or not
1) Those dwellings produce his faction's troops, right?  And a few imps would be useless when you have a lot of gremlins, they won't fit in the army.
2) What if there are no dwellings?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 04:57 PM |
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Call me stupid, but I've always (with any Heroes version) thought, that a Multiplayer map should either have more victory consitions than killing the opponent or have enough stuff on the map to make sure those who get there will have a big enough advantage to overcome the siege stalemate: specific spells, additional troops, valuable artifacts, money donations, gold mines, you name it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 28, 2008 04:59 PM |
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There usually are. And it's not about you getting extra troops, it's depriving him from getting any while you still do.. Also he loses that +1 growth bonus per dwelling so if there are tier 7 dwellings that's minus 2 tier 7 per week.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 28, 2008 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 18:36, 28 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
there is no code of honour which prohibits castle sitting (town sitting). Its not dishonorable at all.
I know I will get flamed for this.. but...
I disagree... I think townsitting is dishonorable act. It always was in H3 days.. and in H4 days.. Especially when you kill catapult first thing and trap opponent outside walls and just pick him off.
The ONLY time I think the townsitting is acceptable is if sitution like lixue did.. rushing week 3 on a week 6 map If he can take those monster garrisons week 3.. then he can seige a castle no problem..
But at the end of a normal game... hiding behind castle walls just so you can try and kill catapult and trap opponent.. Or just reduce his masses before he can get behind wall.. is just unethical.
But.. I play for the honor and integrity and fun of the game.. not soley for the cutthroat pursuit of points ONLY.
To each there own.. Some people like mentoring - goblin hording - hit and run - townsitting - many many ways to exploit this game. Most of them techniques are designed to tip the balance of the end game drastically to one side.. and in my mind.. that is not the nature of a multiplayer balanced hard fought game.
With the exception of extreme rush... I will never town sit.. even if it means my ONLY way to win game. If I cant beat my opponent face to face.. then I didnt do enough or play well enough thru out game to deserve the win anyways.
Here is example of recent game I had... since someone already brought this subject up... I will not post my opponents name so dont ask.....
We played abysmal... Fortress ( me ) vs. Necro ( him )
Now everyone knows that you have to try and end game as early as possible vs. Fortress... that is no secret... And it was my first game on Abysmal so I was already slow... and fortress is extremely slow to start anyways.. and to top it off... I was NEVER offered any Logistics...
So I see Lucretia... storming around map with no problems... it wasnt long before ofcourse here she came.. and I was far from ready.. I was desperately trying to get Elemental Balance to defense Necros Massive 44 spell power Bird.. but each level up and NO offer of it!!! I had no money to upgrade my Dragons.. and couldnt buy all my army.. and yet Lucretia is coming... AND then I notice.. that I have almost NO resources!!! How am I going to use RUNES with no resources... I am TOAST!
....... but wait.. Lucretia gets within 1 day on my main castle on day 7 .. and says something like " Missed it by 1 day now you will have extra weeks troops" and townportals home!!!!
I cant believe my eyes! So I continue my search for Elemental balance.. getting lost around map in process... Soon..here comes Lucretia... and again.. I am NOT ready...AND AGAIN she gets within 1 day of my castle.. but day 7 again. and again she townportals home!!!
To make a long story short ( too late.. ) Lucretia came to my area 3 times and townportaled home letting the game go until Month 3 week 3!! By now I have finally managed to get elemental balance.. Upgraded all my Dragons.. Have had Week of bezerker and week of Thane since they came and went... and had all my resources now built up to 40+ accross board.. and re visited my Utopia and sunken temple 2nd time.... which I NEEDED cause until then.. my stats were also about half of hers.
NOW for the POINT to the story.....
Now lucretia takes my 2nd town and sits there... and tell me that there is NO way she can beat me in the open field with my rune of charge etc etc.. And says she will sit in town until end of game.. that I must attack her in town. Whose fault is it that game went this long and I got this strong? Bad play on there part!! But now I must decide.. to I waste couple more hours passing turn.. or take chance and attack in castle.. Fully expecting her to try and kill catapult and trap me outside of walls.. and then puppet me and let me kill my self... and sure enough she killed catapult first strike with her 100 Liches....
In the end... its lucky I took Summon magic and had expert earthquake.. if not for that... I woulda lost that battle.
And even tho I WON the game.. I am still pretty disappointed in my opponents actions. They played bad and deserved to lose the game by TP'ing home instead of attacking me... and then they woulda gladly accepted a win if there catapult dirty trick woulda worked?!?!?!
And there are people around that HONESTLY think that is acceptable?
Bah! Shame on you.
EDIT : Added a story..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 06:26 PM |
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Nah, it's always the mapmaker's fault. 
As I said, a decent mp map will provide ways to overcome the stalemate, whether someone sits in his town or not.
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iohann
Hired Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 06:34 PM |
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Edited by iohann at 20:56, 28 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
I disagree... I think townsitting is dishonorable act. It always was in H3 days.. and in H4 days.. Especially when you kill catapult first thing and trap opponent outside walls and just pick him off.
Taking out catapult = first thing to do. Always.
Quote:
reducing opponents masses before he can get behind wall.. is just unethical.
Lmao... I like your understanding of warfare. Sun-Tzu reborn  Those 300 spartans were among the most despisable beings ever walked the surfaceof earth, righty? 
Gave it a 2nd thought - ok, maybe if one really controls entire opponents half (lelvel-ups, mines, dwellings) then he could eventually outgrow townsitter because of dwellings. Does anyone want to try it out? The game will be no longer than 15 weeks, guarranteed 
EDIT: There is one thing! Dragon's Set! If there is an artifact merchant on the map, the one who controls ir will sooner or later get the full Dragon's Set. Now THEN, the owner of it will outgrow opponent in no time. So in maps with artifact merchant the endless stalemate is impossible! Just don't ban any of the set artifacts from map! Ain't I good?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 28, 2008 06:54 PM |
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Quote:
I think townsitting is dishonorable act. It always was in H3 days.. and in H4 days..
No my friend, YOU and a little clique thought that . Don't make a general statement. Long life to HoMM without any rule!
I am not playing HoMM V. So my comment will not be related to actual game, but to previous (as you made a remark). To any extreme action, extreme answer. I can't believe you guys still think that an opponent who lost control of ALL map and is sitting like a duck in his town can't be anihilated. it is only question of time. He will run out of money, scouts, troops. Hit and run him to death, take all his income, don't let him get out from his misery. Read history about big cities falling and learn. Come on Jinxer, you proved being a true warrior over time. Stop being short on strategies.
You think it is a boring tactic? No, it is a new challenge and not easy to be done. Why want always have a final battle when it is also fun to weak an opponent to the point he concede?
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Era II mods and utilities
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iohann
Hired Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 07:25 PM |
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Quote:
I can't believe you guys still think that an opponent who lost control of ALL map and is sitting like a duck in his town can't be anihilated. it is only question of time. He will run out of money, scouts, troops. take all his income, don't let him get out from his misery.
People, people, veterans, emperors! What misery? What lack of resouces? Who runs out of money?
It is easy to calculate that ALL factions have greater income from capitol than is needed to buy entire weekly crop from castle (double growth)!
Here I calculated some, not hard at all:
1. Academy - income 31500 (4500x7); the cost of the weekly crop 26640
2. Sylvan - income 28000 (4000x7); the cost of the weekly crop 27240
3. Fortress - income 28000 (4000x7); the cost of the weekly crop 26290
4. Orcs - income 28000 (4000x7); the cost of the weekly crop 27500
Calulate you the rest. Besides capitol there is a resource income from silo which can be sold. If the opponent comes by week 3-4 or later the town is fully build and is self-sustaining. You can have the rest of townsitters resouces outside the town but what can you possibly do with them? Nothing really decisive (ok, Haven's an exception; Academy is not)
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 28, 2008 07:34 PM |
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Oh come on. There is no problem about him recruiting troops from a town, but you recruiting troops from ALL the other towns and having free access everywhere. That's why he will be in the misery soon.
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Era II mods and utilities
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iohann
Hired Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
Oh come on. There is no problem about him recruiting troops from a town, but you recruiting troops from ALL the other towns and having free access everywhere. That's why he will be in the misery soon.
Majority of HoMMV maps have only 1 town for each player.
I assume that townsitter would have cleared most of his side and be quite strong. The attacker would be higher lvl and better in stats but not enough to compensate for additional 50% penalty from walls to his shooters.
As I see it stalemate is not the only possible outcome only if artifact merchant or utopias (does anyone know exactly how often do "dragons return" to it?) are present.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 28, 2008 07:51 PM |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 28, 2008 08:29 PM |
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Salamadre... ofcourse I agree... that you can more then likely win in the end by waiting them out.. but who wanted to spend extra 2+ hours game time accomplishing same result.. Thats to me is disrespectful.
And its not always 100% victory. I could wait around and Grow 50 Emerald Dragons! And attack and he kills my catapult and then puppets my Emeralds. Or if he is Sylvan.. he can mass Frenzy/rain me and watch me kill my self.. even if I have 5 times his army.. while he sets cozy by the fireplace watching me kill my self.. trapped outside the walls... cause cant always take Summon and have earthquake.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 08:48 PM |
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It's as Salamandre and Kis say. The only rule i request is that catapult is left unharmed in siege battle.
Also, Iohann pointed out quite clearly the principles of warfare and example of spartans
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 28, 2008 10:29 PM |
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I don't get it.
You people mean, you are playing simple kill them alls on mp with 2 towns without additional victory conditions or cache areas, additional fully devloped towns and so on?
That's... strange.
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