|
| Thread: Freedom of speech or something else? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
posted February 04, 2009 02:37 PM |
|
|
Freedom of speech or something else?
In the OSM debaters club a new topic sprung up, and rather than derail the thread (which would be so ironic to do actually...  ) I thought I would open a new topic.
JollyJoker's last post: (his initial quote is saying what I had said to him )
Quote:
Quote:
You're fine with hate speech on a forum often visited by children, but take issue with moderators stating that they would hold to the forum rules?
Your quote that I referred to is:
Quote:
KILL ALL GAYS LIKE GOD COMMANDS US TO
In the Code of Conduct it states:
Quote:
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality. For example: instead of saying who they are ("you suck" or "you are an idiot") say what you think about their opinions/actions and why ("Your post about me is wrong because I never said that heroes 4 is a bad game" or "I disagree with your opinion because centaurs have more hit points than gnolls"). This simple rephrasing strategy can resolve many conflicts and fights before they even happen, both online and in life.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color. Sexism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their gender or sexual orientation.
No matter how many times the freedom of speech issue flag gets waved here, I'm still shocked by it in examples like this. How can people believe that the right to spew hateful uneducated comments is somehow more important than a person's right to be who they are without fear of those who condemn them?
I'm sorry - but if this was a forum for mature discussion rather than gaming, and if there were warnings when registering that you might read unsettling opinions then I could see you taking issue with what I said. But this is a gaming forum frequented by impressionable young kids...
This is a bit amusing because if you think consequently about it you'll have to ban the Bible because that's what stand in it.
It's not THAT much different from demanding to execute all child abusers.
Perhaps in your interpretation, that's what the Bible is about - but many people would argue against the notion that it's a book giving license to kill homosexuals.
Your logic really escapes me, first of all - there are many different ideas expressed in the Bible, and those ideas have been interpreted and accepted in many different ways across many religions.
I'm not going to start a religious debate with you - because I have no desire to - but even the Catholic Church has asked for empathy and compassion when dealing with homosexual people, even though it maintains it's stance that homosexuality is a moral sin.
While I may disagree with someone, I would not penalize anyone who cites the story of Sodom and Gomorrah while explaining their opinions opposing homosexuality. I wouldn't have any issue with anyone trying to illustrate their viewpoint in a mature, intelligent manner. However an all caps cry of kill the gays? You seriously believe this to be perfectly acceptable?
There have been many opinions expressed here that make me ill over the years, I have never once acted on those posts based on my personal feelings. As much as I may dislike the thought process that certain people go through - I certainly do not believe its within my right to judge based on how I feel. But if someone does have an opinion that may be deemed offensive to someone, I should hope that they find a way to express themselves intelligently and in a manner that encourages a like response - I will not allow a "KILL ALL GAYS LIKE GOD COMMANDS US TO" comment o go unchecked.
As for the last bit of your post
Quote:
It's not THAT much different from demanding to execute all child abusers.
Really?! This is exactly why I am so opposed to the idea of participating in threads in the OSM. Was this post meant to incite anger, or do you honestly believe that? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you - are you saying that your 'death to homosexuals' idea is the same as 'death to child abusers' ? , or are you stating that by penalizing members for writing hate speech is akin to murdering child abusers?
If you wish to have a dialogue about one topic, why insert another very inflammatory and unrelated idea in there to back yourself up?
I don't see any way that your last statement relates to what I've said under any imagining of what you meant.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 02:42 PM |
|
Edited by pandora at 14:42, 04 Feb 2009.
|
I just read your addition:
Quote:
Okay, let me add something: if you leave out the caps and the hatefulness, but just have a calm reasoning, like, God wouldn't want them to exist and they would be sinners and should forswear their evil ways lest god wouldn't smite them - can you really ban that? I don't think so.
I don't see how what you're doing is any different than Mvass's change the initial post so that the responses look funny gag in VW.
If you're speaking about one thing - inserting an entirely different thing as your platform to argue from is hardly making a sound argument.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 03:24 PM |
|
|
You forget what my point actually is: not getting exiled when debating something I take issue with. The example was drastic, but of course it shouldn't be as drastic that it would allow a simple ban, that's why I made the addition.
At this point I don't wish to discuss the bible and what it says either; what is expressed in the old testament would have to be considered law for all fundamental Jews - this includes the rules about homosexual and other conduct. There are enough Christians who are quite fundamental as well, even though most of them understand that they don't live in a God state but in secular state with different laws they have to abide to.
BUT: That doesn't change the fact that the bible states explicitely that god "disapproves" about homosexuality and wants them to be punished by death. Sex with children - from the AT point of view . is not worse than that. You can conclude from that what you want, but for my logic you could make a case for demanding the death penalty for homsexuals IF and WHEN you make a case for the death penalty for people who have sex with children.
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 03:52 PM |
|
|
My point is that you're choosing to alter the discussion to suit what you're feeling about what I said. To me it would be akin to my saying that in the current state of life in North America it is unsafe to allow children to play outside unattended all day as they did when I was younger - and to have you reply to me by stating that what I said is the same as stating that all children should be bound in duct tape and locked in a closet. You take a simple statement and try to apply it in the most extreme context.
If we're to go back to what you said was the original point - (which wasn't actually what I was responding to.) I still feel that you're taking an extreme view on what's been said.
There was nowhere that I stated that such a thread should be made to exile those people who like to debate. I don't know why that is how you took this whole guild idea.
In the initial thread about posting limits, Mvass expressed an idea that there should be further separation at HC either in the way of a new forum for debate - or to move any non debate topics into the tavern. I suggested that simply creating a thread catering to those who like to debate would be a better idea, as I am opposed to constantly splitting and dividing the boards.
If you read what I said without trying to force the context that I'm looking to exile anyone, I think i was very clear in saying that it shouldn't be the case.
What I'm hoping to see end here, is that two or three people stop picking at one element of a discussion and starting an offtopic debate amongst themselves within a thread.
If someone raises a point that another person objects to and its ontopic - there would be no issue.
I don't know why words like ban and exile are even being tossed about..
As for your aside about homosexuality and child abuse - you're speaking about the laws of the old testament without taking account the laws written in the ten commandments, as well you're ignoring any of the teachings written in the New Testament - as well as any of the views looked upon by churches today, which are widely varied -- and to boot you are comparing those laws to the laws of men.
You can take any text anywhere and find a way to have it suit the arguement that you wish to have, all it takes is a little imagination - it doesn't mean that you've stated any concrete 'fact' on the matter.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 03:53 PM |
|
|
Sorry to butt in your friendly chat:
Quote:
but for my logic you could make a case for demanding the death penalty for homsexuals IF and WHEN you make a case for the death penalty for people who have sex with children.
If you weren't sleeping for the last 2000 years, maybe you'd notice how society changed since those commandments were made. You are comparing homosexuality (sexual preference) to child abusers (sexual preference AND inflicting pain upon others). Aparat from the fact that comparing those 2 complitely different cases proves nothing - if I were gay I would get offended by that.
____________
none of my business.
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 03:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
God wouldn't want them to exist and they would be sinners and should forswear their evil ways lest god wouldn't smite them
Don't apply the god argument here,its irrelevent,because im atheist and i know many more,infact the meare god excuse is offensive to me!
I do think its allouded to be banned. If i want to qoute the bible saying all people that are not jews can be die, and should die for not being jewish/muslim/christian, will that be not the same thing?
Pedophilia is a dieses Homosexuality is a way of life,not the same thing!
Quote:
child abusers (sexual preference AND inflicting pain upon others)
i disagree - BDSM.
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 03:59 PM |
|
|
This was an example. By the way, JJ is just trying to make a sensible discussion regarding this freedom of speech as it is seen from both sides or neutral (not "I am offended" because I can say I am offended by capitalism and what? not have capitalism discussions? what would that solve?). You know, not thinking about it won't make it go away, or make it more analyzed.
Quote:
Pedophilia is a dieses
Oh I'm pretty sure Moonlith would disagree with you
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 04:04 PM |
|
|
Yet again, freedom of speech only concerns government actions to limit speech in some fashion.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 04:12 PM |
|
|
I don't see how it's a sensible discussion to raise one point and then swap it out for something different.
As for my own feelings on the matter of freedom of speech, what you need to understand is that my views in real life are quite different than how I see things at HC. Some people need to recognize that distinction.
I personally don't care what anyone says about anything when I'm just reading, I'm an adult woman - I actually invite views that oppose my own when I'm looking to have a discussion with someone, i find it far more interesting than constant agreement.
BUT - at Hc there are rules. It is my job as a moderator to uphold them. Its really as simple as that.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 04:17 PM |
|
|
Let me put this differently. Suppose in real life, there was an incident of some fanatics who tortured ( ) gays because they said, it was God's command. Should we not discuss this?
(nevermind the torture part being completely off, but that's the whole point anyway)
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 04:20 PM |
|
Edited by pandora at 16:51, 04 Feb 2009.
|
Why would we not?
edit:
What I really don't understand is where the notion comes from that anyone would be exiled, or that I'm saying that certain topics are not to be discussed.
All I am saying is that if mature topics are to be discussed , it should be done with a level of maturity and responsibility.
If you have an extreme view on something, then please do try to explain it in a way that others might gain some understanding of your viewpoint. Don't just make some inflammatory statement like 'kill the gays' etc and assume that's enough.
Take into account that you're speaking in type to strangers. They have no idea where you're coming from, they don't have the benefit of watching your body language or reading the nuances of your inflection to determine when you're being wry.
There will be people who take what's said as face value - if you present something as fact they will read it as such, and if it comes to it that I believe that someone might act on what you said in a harmful manner because they believe it to be factual, I will intervene. Telling people to kill gays falls into the category of what I believe to be harmful - and it has no place here.
This doesn't mean that I think things shouldn't be discussed - I believe that the more diverse viewpoints people are exposed to, the more they can grow as individuals - the more likely they are to do some research and come to their own opinions on the subject. I do not believe that trying to force your opinion on someone by means of strong arming and belittling them for what they believe is right, nor will I ever accept any opinions being submitted as facts when there is no evidence to back up what you're saying.
If anyone wishes to discuss this with me, I've no problem having a dialogue with any of you - but don't put words into my mouth please.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That doesn't change the fact that the bible states explicitely that god "disapproves" about homosexuality and wants them to be punished by death.
Actually you need to learn to read. It says that "sleep with a man as you would with a women" is a abomination. So it does not ban homosexuality at all.
The term homosexual reffers to people in love with the same gender, while bisexual means your are falling for both, and hetrosexual means that you go for the opposite.
And a man with a man as with a women could mean like:
*Vaginal sex
*Make babys
*?
So indeed, please fail And it does not touch women for a peculiar reason.
Ontopic: Without the random swearing and ridiculess arguments, what would the discussion be? Small childer means "yet to reach puberty", teenagers are a different breed. Very few non-teenagers at this bord, no?
____________
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:17 PM |
|
|
We've had kids under 10 yrs posting here
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:21 PM |
|
|
Dam it!............... How many kids under 10 at OSM then? I kind of wonder <.<
____________
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Without the random swearing and ridiculess arguments, what would the discussion be?
Fun and enlightening?
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:33 PM |
|
|
regardless of what any one person's views are of what should be okay ( I for one would still ove to see an adults only forum for mature discussion so that i needn't ever talk about censorship again )
The simple fact is this forum has a Code of Conduct, you agree to it when you register, and you need to follow it.
The board language is English, rather than cussing you could pick from one of the many words in the English language as a substitution to express the same views.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 05:54 PM |
|
|
The notion of being exiled comes from reading about people complaining about having to "endure" a 3-page discussion revolving around the definition of love in a thread called "What is love" and the comments that the OSM is suffering from those things.
If that's off-topic, everything is.
So if THAT's used as an example of what should be put into the debater's guild in the future, yes, then I call that being exiled.
For the comparison of child abuse and homosexuality you miss the point entirely. The point seems to be that everyone is shocked about the notion of demanding death penalty for homosexuals - but seemingly has no trouble imagining it for child abuse.
Now, what foundation would the demand for death penalty fot sex with children have? No legal one, of course, at least not in Western countries... BUT THEN WHAT? Which foundation? A Bible quote?
And then, where's the difference?
Because the Bible DOES say it and demand it, and neither commandments nor NT changes anything about it. As all Christian and Jewis fundamentalists will tell you.
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 06:08 PM |
|
|
Thread titles do not always reflect the thread subject, people are often creative in choosing how they start out their topics.
Regardless, its quite evident that no matter what I say, how you hear it will remain unchanged.
Quote:
Because the Bible DOES say it and demand it, and neither commandments nor NT changes anything about it. As all Christian and Jewis fundamentalists will tell you.
Here's an example - you say that the Bible demands that gays are killed? That to you is a relevant fact that you cannot budge from. The bible also says "Thou shalt not kill", but this doesn't suit you - so that's to be ignored.
As I said, I've no problem with open dialogue or debate - but you remain absolutely closed - so this is futile, feel free to go debate yourself - as really my participation in this discussion is unnecessary lol
No anger or anything here, I just don't feel there's anything worth saying but "agree to disagree".
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 06:12 PM |
|
|
Either you don't read what has been written about the What is Love thread or you just don't care.
And noone is stopping you from posting there, it's just that heavy discussions are not fit with the character of the thread. I believe you need to find another term, exiled does not apply. How about 'confined' (but not entirely since you can still do it elsewhere)? I'm surprised you used 'exiled' seeing how directly you take the meaning of words.
____________
none of my business.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 04, 2009 07:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
As I said, I've no problem with open dialogue or debate - but you remain absolutely closed - so this is futile, feel free to go debate yourself - as really my participation in this discussion is unnecessary lol
Schoolyard logic - you are open, I am closed - or vice versa?
But I agre that this is a completely unnecessary discussion: it's atypical case where someone - in this case you - is doing what is supposed to be so bad: picking things out of connection, clinging to a specific point and start a discussion about it. Why?
Remember my point I made to ASheera: I don't want to be put into some arena where my debate skill or whatever is judged when I react within the context of a thread on an on-topic remark I have an issze with or find even offensive. The example I gave was extreme, but you can pick just any extreme opinion like that which is ON-topic. Whether it's religiously motivated or not. Simply on-topic, but "debatable" in its content and not bannable.
You are a woman, so simply take this example: most Christian fundamentalists will NOT allow abortion in case of a rape. That's simply a fact. Obviously this is a debatable point of view. Now, if abortion is viewed as murder, it would be possible to call a woman who aborted a child after a rape a murder.
If it's halfway on topic you cannot ban the poster or their opinion, can you? Which is what matters.
If that's the case I want to answer. In that thread.
Now, if people complain about something not being in the spirit of what OP wanted - how about asking OP about it? Mind you, I wasn't aware that OP has the right to censor postings, like, I want answers with sentences at most having as many words as the longest word letters and no quotes. But I'm not going to eat something like "your post is not in the spirit of what the thread intended" by ANYone EXCEPT OP.
So what does Mighty Mage say to all of this.
For Father's thread, if I'm not wrong he took care of "his" thread, steering it, making clear exactly what the spirit was and what he found ok and what not - and it seems that one worked.
Last but not least I'm apologizing to you, Pandora, since, after rereading it, it's clear that you don't want to exile anyone from any thread. So in case you felt attacked in that direction I appreciate he fact that you have made it clear that this isn't what you want.
|
| |
|
|
