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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2009 03:52 PM |
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Bak:
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A fascist government, for example, can't be expected to lean too much to the Left, as far as I know.
You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.  For example, Hitler's government was pretty to the left, economically speaking.
Father:
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You will then state your own oppinion in reply and then fail to follow your own advice by providing these explanations yourself.
What do you want me to explain?
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Eccentric Opinion
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 04:02 PM |
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@ JJ: MONSTER! 
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school would have to be quite different, but school should be different anyway and is not the issue here.
Depends what country you are in, and I shall not discuss it, since you said it's not the issue. Yet, if it's not the issue... Why bring it up?
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Obviously, what a job pays should play no role
It does... It is paid according to how much it is needed. If there are a million doctors, they won't get paid as much as when there would be a thousand... Competition does that... Unless, medical care is in the hands of the state... Then yeah, you have the right to complain. But it's more something you have against universal healthcare, then aganst anything else.
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the demand of society for a job does
Which is mirrored by the amount of money and benefits the job in question has.
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on the basis of how good someone does their job.
This is the death of culture, thank you. Who decides how well the job goes? free trade is dead then? Because a merchant can't be allowed to earn more than a plumber which is doubly unfair, because how will you compare the work of a plumber as opposed to the job of a doctor?
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The DEMAND would have to be decided sooner, at the moment of education.
What are you saying? It sounds horrible... Like 1984...
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This is of course VERY sketchy, but I'm not about to paint a full picture, it should be clear what is meant.
NO, it is not! Please, specify how this would even work.
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You know, one reason why money is so important in capitalism is that so many people are unhappy with their work. For the people who ARE really happy with their work, money is not nearly as important.
Happiness shouldn't be found in your job (nor should unhappiness be found in it, mind you)
Happiness should stem from whatever criteria you choose. If you think happiness stems from a job, happy little working ant, then I'd say you find your happy job and let othe rpeople find happiness through leisure, spirituality, socialising, charity or arguing over internet forums. point is, who are you to decide what dictates happiness?
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usually the things that are done by the lowest of the lowly
Or by people who go to college. You see, there are always people who need a job, so why take that away from them? Didn't you just say there is a fixed amount of jobs? then why take some away?
@ del_diablo:
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Eqonomic freedom is quite subjective
No, I tend to disagree...
How many industries are in the hands of the government? What goods are you allowed to distribute? Etc...
@ at all:
All animals are equal, yet some are more equal than others?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 17, 2009 04:14 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 16:15, 17 Apr 2009.
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1, 2... 9 quotes...
Dagoth...
You too? 
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO HIM, YOU BASTARDS?!
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 04:20 PM |
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Oh, my God, baklava... You're right! NO!
I shall leave this mundande task to my peers who are more experienced with this. After all, I will probably never be able to convince young people people with their idealistic romantic sous who want to create a perfect world without poverty and where society is always right. (I don't say too young, I said: just that age where idealism strikes)
Off to the glade!
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2009 04:53 PM |
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@Mvass
And you call yourself a "liberal"? Eyes wide shut is what I call it. Deserves no answer because of willful dogmatic stubbornness.
@Baklava
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why would anyone possibly want to spend half their life in complex studies of medicine when they can get a one-month crash course in typing and work as a secretary, without being responsible for people's lives, for the same wage? (or a larger one if they're good at typing
Because they WANT to? Do you think that MONEY would help people take responsibility for people's lifes? You must be kidding then - money is always the worst possible incentive. Talent is better.
I repeat, in China the doctors got paid only in case of a SUCCESS. If you'd pay according to that (with treatment being an obligation, if possible), you can bet that the costs of the health system would deflate MASSIVELY.
@ Dagoth
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Happiness should stem from whatever criteria you choose. If you think happiness stems from a job, happy little working ant, then I'd say you find your happy job and let othe rpeople find happiness through leisure, spirituality, socialising, charity or arguing over internet forums. point is, who are you to decide what dictates happiness?
Shows the whole tragedy of capitalism. Thanks for making that point abundantly clear once again.
See it from this point: if you'd find a job you'd actually like, something you really found interesting and so on, wouldn't that be better than a totally boring job or a job that you'd hate and so just because it paid so well?
Note that getting gratifications for a job well done is deeply capitalist. Getting fat money even if you do a lousy job is definitely not - still it's the rule here with us, in capitalism.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 17, 2009 05:24 PM |
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The pay-according-to-success thing is great.
China however has billions of people and is a communist country. They can afford experiments with health care.
Do you want to spend the first half of your life studying your butt off and then doing a job in which people's lives depend on your success, with the knowledge that a secretary which is good at typing gets paid more than you do?
Cause I sure as hell don't. I'd have a distinct feeling that someone's making an idiot out of me.
What you proposed isn't equality but imbecility.
And talent isn't an incentive, but a requirement for working with people's lives. Money isn't there to drag people to do that job, but to reward those who are talented, skilled and brave enough to do so.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 17, 2009 05:31 PM |
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@Mvass
And you call yourself a "liberal"? Eyes wide shut is what I call it. Deserves no answer because of willful dogmatic stubbornness.
Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Father, you idealise the hive mind, congratulations. Honestly, why put the community higher than yourself? You can't become happy that way, because measuring happiness by the grandeur of a community is just a big letdown.
You get no feedback whatsoever from the grand community.
Money doesn't corrupt at all. It's the power that comes from the money which could corrupt.
Listen, the community would only care about the health of the people who dictate the community. this would be the media and the politicians. Want to put them over you? Why? Do you have no sense of self-preservation?
Also, corribus just cried foul at an ad hominem.
Father, I would like you to name one country that utilises the ideas of capitalism that isn't working, just so we can debate about facts instead of pointing the 'blatantly obvious', because I havn't heard of one country that doesn't 'work'. North korea works now, Kenya under idi Amin worked. Do you consider those countries to be (or to have been) as awesome as ours?
And capitalism works, because it gives an automatic incentive to contribute to society in a pleasant way and it gives freedom to make your own happiness anyway you want.
@ jj: If it's a job you like, then do it. If it's a productive, legitimate job, then you'll get your means of staying alive and the satisfaction of a job. No one will get a good-paying job, if he's highly incompetent.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 17, 2009 06:13 PM |
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Also, corribus just cried foul at an ad hominem.
Bingo. It's just amusing that JJ, who wouldn't agree with you if you told him the color of an orange, would call someone stubborn.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 17, 2009 06:40 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 18:47, 17 Apr 2009.
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After all, I will probably never be able to convince young people people with their idealistic romantic sous who want to create a perfect world without poverty and where society is always right. (I don't say too young, I said: just that age where idealism strikes)
For the last time, dude, you're as 17 as the rest of us
Oh and DON'T REPLY TO FATHER'S POST!
The OSM is trying to devour you! Snap out of it, man!
(though I agree with him about some of the stuff in the post )
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 06:48 PM |
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You say pay it forward? I say animal farm and 1984...
And, father, i understand that self-sacrifice ggives great joy. it's a wonderful if you can do that. You could become a social worker fr the government or for thechurch or whatever cause that's non-profit. But why wouldyou impose that on others? Why take away the means of procuring money from other people? Why take away their economic freedom?
And money has as much power ads we let it have. Socialist power tends to stem from guns or mass-media (granted, you can buy mass-media, but that's limited only by the amount of money you have) (politically overpowered socialists are worse than power-hungry capitalists, if legislation is correct), but let's not confuse economics with money.
My first statements concerning happiness and the community comes from psychologists who studied happiness. Optimists are happier than others, for example, but you can hardly change that, since pessimists are... Pessmimistic, see? Anyway, People from the Sovit union had a harder time to be happy, becaus ethey measured their happiness by 'the good of the Union' or 'the Motherland'. The problem is, you don't know how good your Union or Motherland is, nor will it say that YOU improved. they will say it's people improved it.
In mass-society you have to shape your own happiness, because it's MASS-society. You are estranged from yourself, because you live in the masses and can be missed, even in a socialist society. A socialist society will still not care for others, because the government does that for them, now. Nothing would change in a mass-society, except that people will become poorer and they could even afford less to care about others. In fact, they will care about others less, because they have given up all their money for the government to spend it wisely, but it's the government! How can you trust them with anything other than taxation, protection, legislation and public services?
Would you rather not decide for yourself where your money goes in charity by living in a more ecomically free country?
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How do we improve ourselves? Simple...by helping others.
You're not helping others by forcing them to help others.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2009 07:24 PM |
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Father:
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Why does capitalism work?
Fundamentally, it is because of the most basic principle of fairness: free voluntary exchange. Even small children know that if Johnny has a red truck and wants a yellow one, and Billy has a yellow truck and wants a red one, the exchange should take place and no one should prevent it.
All the rest of the capitalist system is built on top of that basic principle. For example, the price system evaluates how a collection of individuals prefers some stuff to other stuff.
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you have a chance to step on and/or over your fellow man and put yourself in a better position
What? 
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For me finding true joy and happiness comes from the sacrifice of self for others. When we take the time to put the other foot forward and help all in need that we can, we contribute to a society built around charity and compassion.
It's a society built on self-debasement and self-immolation. You may like it. But don't make the rest of us do it. Wherever I get my "true joy and happiness", it's certainly not from being forced to do community service. If you live for others - that is a sure way to ruin. Once everyone sees that you are producing for others, they will cut back on their work. Pretty soon, you will be carrying everybody.
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I would stand much taller and humbly so if I had the strength enough to lift the world above me.
If I saw Atlas holding up the world, I would tell him to shrug.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 17, 2009 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:40, 17 Apr 2009.
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Quote:
Fundamentally, it is because of the most basic principle of fairness: free voluntary exchange. Even small children know that if Johnny has a red truck and wants a yellow one, and Billy has a yellow truck and wants a red one, the exchange should take place and no one should prevent it.
And in socialism, they share all the trucks with all the kids on the block. Which sounds great. But since nobody actually owns any of the trucks, nobody had to work for them, nobody had to sacrifice anything to get them, and everybody has the expectation that more will just show up because everybody has the right to unlimited free trucks. Nobody actually takes care of the trucks and then most of the trucks get damaged very quickly, meaning that there are less trucks to go around, so there's the inevitable fighting over the few remaining trucks, and the truck-providers can't keep up with the rate that trucks are being gone through simply because nobody actually tries to keep the trucks in decent shape, so here we have a situation with too many people per unit number of trucks, and no system to get more no matter how hard the people work (not that people have any notion that hard work actually equals rewards, so forget that approach), so what happens is the stronger kids hoard the trucks, because that's human nature, so that the weaker kids can't play with any trucks, and to trade for truck time, the weaker kids have to work for the stronger kids. But because there are no regulations in place, the weaker kids get abused and the labor value of truck time goes down and down until the weaker kids are virtual slaves and the stronger kids are virtual kings, and since the stronger kids get so drunk on power, they just decide to control EVERYTHING. After all they own all the trucks and means of production right so then what do you basically have? Well i'll tell you what you basically have - you basically have gone back to capitalism but this time with no laws or regulations - until the weaker kids eventually get fed up and revolt and murder all the stronger kids because they do outnumber the stronger kids. And then what do they do? They get this crazy idea that everyone should be equal and all the trucks should be shared among all the kids, because that would solve everything.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted April 17, 2009 07:42 PM |
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Calm down now Father
And thanks for the appreciation shown a couple of posts before.
First of all, you should acknowledge that within such an intrinsecate discussion it is pointless to search a final satisfying position to both opposing sides. What I always do is, present my ideas and let people get to know them. Even when not accepted at first glance, a part of it will always be taken into account, even if used as a model for a future opposite argument. This increases variety and therefore the richesness of our debates. YOUR PART IS IMPORTANT. I dearly appreciate your contribution to this discussion, even when the "opposing side" seems to be unshakable.
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Mvassilev said:
quote:The idea of "making your community" instead of "making yourself". To think of common interest before your own. Thats also socialism.
Well, if that is socialism, then I am proud to call socialism my enemy. Why is economic equality even desirable? All individuals should be free to make themselves as well-off as possible, as long as they don't initiate aggression against others.
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I am sure you do. I actually knew that before I joined this discussion. But time will soften you up, if not you, than certainly your children or grandchildren. This dichotomy capitalism good X socialism bad is not only juvenile but FRUITLESS above all.
Making your community IS a very effective way of "making yourself". That is what escapes most of the narrowminded capitalists. Finland for instance (thx for the post, Minion) is one of the multiple examples in Scandinavia where the wealthy will pay high in taxes, so all the other "not-so-wealthy" will have equal right for free education and health-care.
And that all without discarding an economy based on free-market.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 17, 2009 07:59 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:03, 17 Apr 2009.
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@Corribus
Now I have to break the first rule of the OSM and actually agree with someone.
That is in my humble opinion the single best post in the history of this place.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2009 09:52 PM |
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Quote:
But since nobody actually owns any of the trucks, nobody had to work for them, nobody had to sacrifice anything to get them, and everybody has the expectation that more will just show up because everybody has the right to unlimited free trucks. Nobody actually takes care of the trucks and then most of the trucks get damaged very quickly, meaning that there are less trucks to go around, so there's the inevitable fighting over the few remaining trucks, and the truck-providers can't keep up with the rate that trucks are being gone through simply because nobody actually tries to keep the trucks in decent shape, so here we have a situation with too many people per unit number of trucks.
What about air and enviroment then? I dare you to respond.
Besides, what if we decided to get in a law of "Don't randomly destroy or wear out crap without attempting to repair it"?
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so what happens is the stronger kids hoard the trucks, because that's human nature, so that the weaker kids can't play with any trucks, and to trade for truck time, the weaker kids have to work for the stronger kids.But because there are no regulations in place, the weaker kids get abused and the labor value of truck time goes down and down until the weaker kids are virtual slaves and the stronger kids are virtual kings, and since the stronger kids get so drunk on power, they just decide to control EVERYTHING.
Someting akin to that is what created most revolutions in the world.
The kings and tyrans abused their power to till the place where the weaker decided to unite and do someting about it. Peasants did it, the poor did it, women did it, the supressed did it.
Revolutions, when the weaker united and become the strong.
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After all they own all the trucks and means of production right so then what do you basically have? Well i'll tell you what you basically have - you basically have gone back to capitalism but this time with no laws or regulations - until the weaker kids eventually get fed up and revolt and murder all the stronger kids because they do outnumber the stronger kids. And then what do they do? They get this crazy idea that everyone should be equal and all the trucks should be shared among all the kids, because that would solve everything.
Sharing does not solve everything, haveing a proper ground structure to reinforce it would do a better job. I like the "You break it, you fix it" idea, its someting for society.
And as i said revolutions happens all the time, but without a proper foundation their useless. Soviet Union is an example on that in contrast to France.
Also i find supply and demand VERY subjective, for instante if you break someting you just buy another when sometimes changeing 1 minor part like a screw would make it work again.
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Finland for instance (thx for the post, Minion) is one of the multiple examples in Scandinavia where the wealthy will pay high in taxes, so all the other "not-so-wealthy" will have equal right for free education and health-care.
And that all without discarding an economy based on free-market.
Welcome to an leftwinged idea, we are doing quite fine in executing it over here. If only the rest could se the light.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 09:58 PM |
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If you just said that either the russian revolution or the french revolution had no point and changed nothing for the better, than I see no point in discussing with you any further
but I think you misunderstood corribus' post. In capitalism, the responsibility is put in your hands. In socialism, since everything is owned by everyone, there is little responsability and...
Oh, nevermind, just reread it, diablo... pretty please
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 17, 2009 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 22:24, 17 Apr 2009.
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@del diablo
I had hoped it was clear that my post was at least in part tongue and cheek. So, I'm not going to go and defend every portion of it as if it was a strict analogy. At the same time it does try to make a number of points.
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The kings and tyrans abused their power to till the place where the weaker decided to unite and do someting about it. Peasants did it, the poor did it, women did it, the supressed did it.
Revolutions, when the weaker united and become the strong.
I think the point you missed is that any system that tries to enforce equality is doomed to fail because equality is not "thermodynamically favorable". Any economic/government system is only metastable. The point I was trying to make is that this system which starts out as "everybody sharing trucks" (i.e., everybody equal) eventually (naturally!!) degenerates into a system of inequality with some people controlling the trucks and other people slaving in order to use them. But since the (new) system was not set up to accomodate a distribution of wealth, there are no laws or regulations to stabilize it, and the system quickly further degerates into complete anarchy and mayhem.
Geez, it's so deflating when you have to explain your own satire.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2009 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
If you just said that either the russian revolution or the french revolution had no point and changed nothing for the better, than I see no point in discussing with you any further
Nah, your not reading correctly. What i said was that during the French revolution they had the foundations needed on place before they was done with overthrowing and exterminating king and queen. They was ready for it, they had the walls that you need for a solid castle.
In the Russian however they did not build that solide walls, Lenin failing to get Stalin out of the lead did not help the matters at hand further.
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but I think you misunderstood corribus' post. In capitalism, the responsibility is put in your hands. In socialism, since everything is owned by everyone, there is little responsability and...
Oh, nevermind, just reread it, diablo... pretty please
Oh please........... Don't strawman me.
In capitalisme there is no responsibility except money, in socialisme there is no responsibilty except you are taught from day 1 that your a part of the society. Without laws or minor regulations their not that far from each other except nobody is going out better in soclisme because of their parents. And eqonomi as a system beyond that.
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I think the point you missed is that any system that tries to enforce equality is doomed to fail because equality is not "thermodynamically favorable". Any economic/government system is only metastable. The point I was trying to make is that this system which starts out as "everybody sharing trucks" (i.e., everybody equal) eventually (naturally!!) degenerates into a system of inequality with some people controlling the trucks and other people slaving in order to use them.
`The system only enforces that we start out equal and that people will go for the jobs they like to do instead of the job where you earn the money, sure you could say that we could use private time at that but why is there already people doing this then?
And who said it was going to be constant again? Society and laws and morals change over time, it still would.
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But since the system was not set up to accomodate a distribution of wealth, there are no laws or regulations to stabilize it, and the system quickly further degerates into complete anarchy and mayhem.
Thats a nice teori. And i agree, but only partly. Your almost saying that there is no law, but the thing is that there would have to be a law of sorts or we could be as well back at the bloody noble age.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 17, 2009 10:33 PM |
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The Russian revolution had lenin, Marx and Trotsky... how was that NOT a good foundation?
Okay, yeah, Stalin ruined everyone's fun and maybe it WAS doomed to fail from the start, but Old Major was a good foundation. Napoleon and Squealer just ruined it with their dogs and the banishment of Snowball.
And I have nothing more to say about your points, since my English isn't good enough to understand what you're saying.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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