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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2014 12:02 AM |
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Well, once you imitate a design you can make up any fictional technology to rationalize it. What's fair about it when the idea of the transfer itself is blatantly lame? Of course, what's really interesting is this crossguard lightsaber resulting in 3 pages of discussion, a first in a 120 page movie thread! I have the excuse of being stuck to bed with a hernia on my back and a mind toxicated by pain killers, what do you have? 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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somi
Known Hero
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posted December 01, 2014 12:28 AM |
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blizzardboy said:
New explanation: The ancient model lightsaber also uses a special Jedi relic metal that is capable of withstanding the heat of a lightsaber for a period of time.
Crossguard lightsaber = 100% logical. Case closed. I win. Ty ty.
Yea, but than there is no logical reason to have mini lightsabers sticking from those metal parts, as it would be whole made just of that metal (the part that should protect your hand) .
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2014 12:35 AM |
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artu said:
Well, once you imitate a design you can make up any fictional technology to rationalize it. What's fair about it when the idea of the transfer itself is blatantly lame? Of course, what's really interesting is this crossguard lightsaber resulting in 3 pages of discussion, a first in a 120 page movie thread! I have the excuse of being stuck to bed with a hernia on my back and a mind toxicated by pain killers, what do you have?
The correct side.
*puts on sunglasses*
And, as I've already pointed out, the minor change in design is not just some arbitrary addition for the sake of throwing in an addition. I'm fairly certain that this particular Sith is an ancient one that has been awakened. I agree that changing up a lightsaber for the sake of changing up a lightsaber would be kind of stupid, but I highly doubt that's what is going on here.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2014 12:38 AM |
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somi said:
blizzardboy said:
New explanation: The ancient model lightsaber also uses a special Jedi relic metal that is capable of withstanding the heat of a lightsaber for a period of time.
Crossguard lightsaber = 100% logical. Case closed. I win. Ty ty.
Yea, but than there is no logical reason to have mini lightsabers sticking from those metal parts, as it would be whole made just of that metal (the part that should protect your hand) .
Au contraire, Rebel scum. Although the metal protrusions at the beginning are a necessity for storing the crystals that power the crossguard lasers, the lasers themselves are better as a secondary offensive weapon on top of the protection they provide for the wielder.
Darth Wallace is most displeased with you guys dising his two-hander.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2014 01:31 AM |
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Well, protecting your eyes from the sun is a good idea to start curing the blindness, so kudos on that. It doesnt matter if the saber is explainable by stretching out logic if it is a lame idea to begin with, only good artistic decisions deserve that. And putting in a direct medieval flavor (as you confessed yourself) to an irrelevant universe is not one of those: Star Wars is not Barbarella. The crossguard is not only unimaginative, it is the worst cliche they can come up with if they had tried to do just that. Why not put in a ninja, a janissary and a musketeer while you're at it. They can make pretty interesting ancient lords, too! The musketeer will fire plasma muskets with his laser rifle.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2014 01:52 AM |
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Okay. Here's why it's completely different to simply add a crossguard to a weapon versus adding an actual symbol to Earth history. A crossguard is just a naturally conducive design for any melee weapon, whereas a real symbol, such as the golden Roman eagle or a Benedictine cross, would be completely different, because those two symbols don't serve any kind of practical purpose. They're strictly works of artistic design.
Saying that a crossguard on a melee weapon is too Earthlike would be like saying that blasters being in the same shape as real-life guns is too Earthlike. For a blaster to be held by a person with two hands and a head, it's just normal and practical to have a weapon designed in that kind of way. It's Star Wars, but there are still "humans" in it, and physics presumably still works the same way, other than the addition of having a mystical Force aspect added into it.
So yes, I said that the crossguard gives it a certain medieval European flavor (like Han Solo & the Millennium Falcon gives it a certain Wild West flavor), but saying that a crossguard on a light saber is analogous to Imperial Officers walking around with Swastikas on their hats and scarfing down sausages is completely bogus.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2014 01:59 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:16, 01 Dec 2014.
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Okie Dokie
(And about your edit, no, it's a flawed analogy. Lightsabers = Swords would be the same level of flavor of Han Solo = Cowboy, such a T shaped lightsaber would be more like Han Solo carrying a revolver. That's why the whole internet is making fun of it.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Elvin
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posted December 01, 2014 08:24 AM |
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As I was saying, this is not the first time the crossguard appears. There does not seem to be some correlation with ancient sith lightsabers which is disappointing.
I think the reason the crossguard has caused so much fanrage is that the whole force and lightsaber theme is tied to Eastern philosophy with ki, katana and samurai allusions. It is not a matter of practicality but flavour and expectation. Of course, the more important thing is to see an awesome sith fight.. Many disliked the phantom menace but at least it had Darth Maul.
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kipshasz
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posted December 01, 2014 08:31 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 08:38, 01 Dec 2014.
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oh for bleeps sake. the Expanded Universe has plenty of crazy lightsaber designs.
also, the crossguard one was already done. Albeit a bit different.
Damn you Elvin for posting it first!
the main problem with the prequels are two things:
moronic relief character(calling it a comic relief is an insult to comic relief characters everywhere) Jar Jar Binks
and the idiots of the casting department who thought that Hayden Christensen with all his little wimpy teary b1tch voice and crappy acting would make a great adult Anakin.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2014 10:44 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:25, 01 Dec 2014.
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@ Elvin
Yes, the Far East influence is there but keep in mind they are already Jedi Knights, so the medieval influence is already there, too. It's just that, this time it is too direct, tasteless and lame. A comic making the same mistake doesnt matter much, people expect comics to be a little shallow and caricaturistic at times.
------
So, I watched Fury and spoilers ahead:
The movie kind of starts of like Platoon; young, naive man thrown into the horrible realities of war. We have Brad Pitt as the William Dafeo type, good at heart but toughened up and experienced low rank officer who watches out for his men. At this stage, we have a pretty decent war movie with good effects and production values, balanced take between action and psychology. But then, Hollywood happens! Their tank steps on a mine and our guys are stuck in the middle of nowhere with the cannon of the tank, some grenades and machine guns. A battalion of SS, fully armed with bazookas, sniper rifles, trucks etc is approaching them. Somehow (and we are given no motive or logical explanation for this), Brad Pitt who was supposed to be realistic and protective of his men decides to face them head on with a tank that cant move from the middle of the road, out in the open. The young man under his wings already made the transition from "I dont want to kill" to "die you Nazi scum, die die die," so all of them decide to stay with him. After shooting and dropping dozens and dozens of Germans like flies Rambo-style, they each die separate, heroic deaths. Brad Pitt is shot by a German sniper 3 times from like 40 meters but he manages to close the hatchet of the tank and make a speech to the young man before he kicks. He, on the other hand, takes a secret entrance to the ground and hides under the tank, why didnt I think of that! The Nazis pass him by and we go back to Platoon style finale where the allied forces pick up a changed man to send him home a hero.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted December 01, 2014 12:39 PM |
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artu said:
Okie Dokie
(And about your edit, no, it's a flawed analogy. Lightsabers = Swords would be the same level of flavor of Han Solo = Cowboy, such a T shaped lightsaber would be more like Han Solo carrying a revolver. That's why the whole internet is making fun of it.)
I don't see the problem. Darth Vader already was prancing around in a Japanese yoroi. Star wars has a lot of direct influences that it's not very subtle about representing.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2014 01:22 PM |
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Well, the Japanese yoroi wasnt that flashy and direct a reference (at least back in 1977 to the Western audiance's eyes, were you aware of that influance as a kid, I sure wasnt), besides, it all comes down to this: The lightsabers always looked elegant and cool, everything in Star Wars were embedded in with taste, where as this looks too blatantly inserted and forced. (Yes, I see the pun.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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DagothGares
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posted December 01, 2014 02:29 PM |
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Hah, joke's on you, I never watched star wars as a kid. Every film snob can cite Hidden Fortress as a direct source of inspiration for the original trilogy however. Storm troopers and their officers have nazi influences, Han Solo is a space cowboy. Giving someone a crossguard to insinuate a crusader-like character is no different from having Darth Vader wear a yoroi to make him look an intimidating authorit figure, from imperial officers wearing nazi uniforms to make them look blatantly evil or from Han Solo carrying a blaster and walking around in leather boots with a gun belt to make him look more rogueish.
A cross is a very basic shape. Unless we start seeing prayer beads, hear gregorian choirs or have him walk around in plate mail, I don't think it's any more blatant. The light saber is already a ridiculously improbable weapon. Having more dangerous bits attached to it doesn't make it more ludicrous, since it's already on a max scale of ludicrous.
Though, I'll admit to it making my eyes roll (but that is because I had somehow accepted the basic shape of the light saber as acceptable,) it's something that'll wear off eventually, like british people having no issues with eating "spotted dick" and gamers hearing about "Solid Snake" and light sabers being ludicrous weapons.
EDIT: I'm basically saying what blizzboy is seeing, but that doesn't make you less feeble and cursed.
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artu
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posted December 01, 2014 02:50 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:37, 01 Dec 2014.
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Dude, I'm tired of pointing out that a significantly Christian-Cross hilt is not any crossguard and the assocciation is extremely direct, I gave out examples from Twitter, Kip linked a gag picture with Jesus, it's not just me who sees it. You are someone who is interested in medieval weaponry and history of swords, without the religious symbolism, does any culture come up with such a hilt, not every cross is an open wide T and the open wide T is very unpractical if you have no symbolical motive, no sword evolves like that. Without the symbolism you dont have such swords and it is beyond obvious they are the inspiration behind the lightsaber. It is a very lame inspiration and it grins out. As I said, the fictional rationalizations would only make sense if it looked cool. Darth Vader looks cool, he is still selected as the coolest villian ever by all kinds of pools constantly. This sword is definetely not, almost everyone agrees it is an eyesore.
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frostymuaddib
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育碧是白痴
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posted December 01, 2014 03:08 PM |
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We already have space cowboys, yoroi, nazi soilders and everybody is ok with that. But if there is a cross hilt (and cross is rather common shape everywhere, and it is rather simple to use for a hilt) and if it reminds of Christianity, than it is bad thing to see in the movie.
I'm not ok with the new design, but because of different reason. Why change something that is already well made and established (lightstaber) just to get the 'wow' effect. To me, it smells like: 'let us use cool fancy effects and gadgets, and film will be success'. I don't like that. Of course, I may be paranoid about them messing up the film, and I really hope that I'm wrong 
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JoonasTo
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posted December 01, 2014 03:23 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
I'm not ok with the new design, but because of different reason. Why change something that is already well made and established (lightstaber) just to get the 'wow' effect. To me, it smells like: 'let us use cool fancy effects and gadgets, and film will be success'.
You do realise that's the thing the whole star wars history is based on, right?
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DagothGares
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posted December 01, 2014 03:38 PM |
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Crossguards are precursors to basket hilts. And are found through various cultures and time periods. Until it was decided that armor was for idiots and guns were kings, people have basically been using cross guards.
This is an inbetweeny weapon (also a langmesser) they have a protruding bit at the side that will later become a basket hilt.
I'm also sure you can find Indian, Chinese and Turkish weapons with cross guards (I've found some examples already, but I don't mean to image spam). It doesn't look as christian, because the longsword is a typically western european design. Different times, different ways of waging war and when everyone defaulted to the saber they had basket hilts (though, indian sabers are really pretty). A western european armor smith didn't fashion a cross guard to the pommel because he was particulary pious, regardless. A cross guard was a very functional thing.
Can you imagine being a soldier and taking a straight cross guard knowing it would be an inferior option? Of course, you couldn't. Or even if you could imagine someone stupid enough, YOU wouldn't use it. Professional soldiers carried equipment that would maximise their chances of survival and they bought from the people that would help them do so.
It provided good hand protection. It wasn't as good at catching swords and protecting your fingers as a basket hilt, but it would catch blows aimed at your arms and allowed you to catch your opponents sword with it as well. Also, you could brutally bash heads with it, when those heads wore too much armor.
Either way, it's distinctly medieval and vaguely European, but so are straight swords. You can imply a basic shape like a cross and whatever connotations it has, without having to directly relate it to 14th century crusaders. I'm saying here that historically the straight cross guard is there for practical purposes, rather than religious ones.
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kayna
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posted December 01, 2014 03:47 PM |
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They should've been fighting with cross guard light sabers since the start. Now it just means all the previous jedi fights were fake because they could've chopped their wrists far more often. Oh noes.!
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artu
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posted December 01, 2014 03:54 PM |
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@DG
Yes, but dont you see an obvious difference with what you link here and the wide T of the lightsaber we are talking about? I already stated many times, I don't consider every crossguard a crucifix. Yet, the lightsaber design even looks like the huge ones used in knighting people, the ones too unpractical to use in actual battles. (I saw them in a museum in Scotland and they are really huge.)
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DagothGares
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posted December 01, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Not quite sure
Typical late medieval longsword
Is that sword's guard in this post wide enough? That's a very practical sword still that could be used in the late medieval era. The little "hooks" at the guard can also be perfectly flat like here or they can be more "rounded" like here, but it all boils down to the same thing: balance and hand protection. These are all longswords, long narrow blades that would probably see use versus armored opponents.
If you maintain that it is different from the light saber than I'll concede my point.
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