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| Thread: Compassion for murderers and other criminals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted August 23, 2009 02:06 AM |
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Compassion.
I hope they get the needle.
I would say the chair but that chair is too good for them lol.
Whoa! The chair is much worse than the needle dude!
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Salamandre
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posted August 23, 2009 02:56 AM |
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i think its wrong to judge all israelites by this. there is a differnce between retrebution. and alleged justice. notice i did not have opinion on the case.
It is not me who judged but the newspaper. They choose two testimonials and give full names. One is jew and asking for revenge, other is not jew and asking for mercy. I only read between the lines.
I also don't know how I would react if I was victim of this.
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Aculias
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posted August 23, 2009 04:41 AM |
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True Death hehe.
DEATH AWAITS YOU!!!
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sith_of_ziost
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posted August 23, 2009 06:52 AM |
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So wrong, USA is propably the only nation gone for that, and the freedom thing is merely a façade.
O, but you have made your point invalid by saying thus. If freedom did not exist, then I guess all lives are founded on a lie.
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I disagree. Justice entails punishment for a crime. I believe in justice.
As do I, but there are levels in justice. We judge him, he judges himself, the system judges him, the world judges him, but then life itself shall judge him.
Setting one free, believe or not (I care not), will not destroy the world.
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then I hope that there is a hell where he will burn.
Who knows wait awaits after death, and I in no degree doubt that those who do wrong will start that bereft in the afterlife.
Saying that there can be no mercy is rather too blind for me. Few murders stem from true depravity, ie Manson. Many murders stem from a self-pity or desperation. However, those who do these things and in themselves, feel no remorse, I feel shall be tormented with all tortures written in any scripture.
@ Anti - I don't judge israellites, In fact, I deplore racial profiling, and I deplore stereotyping. I talk about this as a man, not an Israeli man.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 23, 2009 08:36 AM |
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I agree with blizzardboy.
The guy shouldn' have been convicted in the first place since the evidence seems to have been not only thin but even partly forged, including statements of key witnesses.
It's more of an example for biassed justice in order to get a conviction more than anything else.
Moreover, if the guy wouldn't be terminally ill his case would have been undergone revision now with good chances for him to be released anyway.
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Totoro
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posted August 23, 2009 10:53 AM |
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I disagree. Justice entails punishment for a crime. I believe in justice.
May I ask you, how can any human ever know if the punishment is justifiable? How can you know if it is too mild or too radical?
Humans can only aim to the most justifiable decision based on their feelings but we can never set clear rules based on facts, numbers and statistics if we act according to our feeling of justice.
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In the case of the bomber, what is to prevent him from carrying out another terrorist attack in his supposed last months to live? Why should we assume he is now safe to dwell in society and no longer a threat since he has cancer? I think he would be a prime recruit for a suicide bomb attack. If he does, what will the beaurocrat who set him free say? Ooooops?
If there is a reason to fear that releasing the prisoner would cause increase in crimes, he shouldn't be released according to the rule: Choose the option what would most reduce the possibility for any future crimes by the same or other persons.
If he is a terrorist with personal values involving criminal acts prioritized higher than his own life, it would be a wrong decision to release him.
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O, but you have made your point invalid by saying thus. If freedom did not exist, then I guess all lives are founded on a lie.
I did not say that freedom didn't exist. Where did you come up with something like that?
I said that there haven't been thousands of wars over freedom, but over greed and wrong allocation of power.
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Mytical
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posted August 23, 2009 01:16 PM |
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Hmm I have to ask. Is this thread about ALL criminals? If so then yeah I am a strong believer in second chances. Now although I said that there is something else I have to say.
I believe that Compassion is ok, to an extent. Everything has limits. Having been a victim of Assult (rape) personally it would not bother me a bit to castrate all rapist with a dull grapefruit spoon, handcuff their hands behind their backs and throw them in to the worst of the worst of prisons. It would be so easy just to say carte blank "They deserve no compassion." I've never did things the easy way.
One second chance for all but 'THE WORST' (I will get to this) is ok. They do their time, get out and don't do it again great. For the 'lesser' (I will get to this also) charges, even a third or a fourth chance would be ok.
There are some, however, that should never see the light of day again. Parents who kill their children. Any rapist who rapes children. Mass murderers (who manage to kill many people before being caught). I am sure I am skipping over a few here.
Lesser charges would be anything considered a 'misdemenor' (spelling). Murder, Rape, Etc there should be no chance for a 'third strike'. You get ONE pass AFTER doing your time. ONE chance to lead a normal life, your past forgiven (but not forgotten). I am not saying you jaywalk you get thrown in for life, but anything but a 'misdemenor' and you never get out again.
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Salamandre
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posted August 23, 2009 01:25 PM |
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There are some, however, that should never see the light of day again. Parents who kill their children. Any rapist who rapes children. Mass murderers (who manage to kill many people before being caught). I am sure I am skipping over a few here.
Do you realize that you just pointed the core religion dilemmas for a different purpose?
God ordered parents to kill their children.
Mohamed raped children.
God ordered genocides.
Heh
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Elodin
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posted August 23, 2009 03:18 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:22, 23 Aug 2009.
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I disagree. Justice entails punishment for a crime. I believe in justice.
May I ask you, how can any human ever know if the punishment is justifiable? How can you know if it is too mild or too radical?
Humans can only aim to the most justifiable decision based on their feelings but we can never set clear rules based on facts, numbers and statistics if we act according to our feeling of justice.
Of course we have to base our judgement on the available information.
Society sets rules for punishment. A jury in democratic societies usually determines what the punishment will be within the guidelines of the law. Unfortunately a government beaurocrat threw out the punishment set by the jury in favor of his own feelings of being "compasionate." In being "compassionate" on the murderer he was not being compassionate for the victims or their families. Most of the families are outraged and can't understand why getting cancer means he got a "get out of jail free card."
That was in my opinion a "crime" against the 270 victims and their families.
@Salamandre
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God ordered parents to kill their children..... genocide..
See my 4th post on the third page in the
What Do You Really Know About The Bible?
thread rather than me repeating my answer yet again. Incorrigible disobedience, rebellion and beligerence by late teen "sons" resulted in death after a trial if the parents brought the matter to trial and proved their case.
As for the genocides thing, the short answer, yet again. God used Israel to judge surrounding nations and surrounding natinos to judge Israel. I have dealt with the issue extensively and quoted verses. I am sure you can find the discussion in on of the religion threads.
If you have furthur comments on those issues you should post them in an appropriate thread. This thread is about modern crime and punishment and not about ancient wars or ancient crime and punishment in the nation of Israel.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 23, 2009 04:14 PM |
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The thing here is that if the case would be reopened - which would be possible - it's clear that the guy would come free. Ths would raise lots of questions about what went down in that case - not to mention give Libya an opportunity to sue for getting the recompensations back they paid for the victims.
This would take some time of course, so this is the solution of choice for all parties: no going to court again, and the guy is pardoned due to his condition.
I think, the relatives of the victims would be a little more offset if the reopening of the case would demonstrate that they nailed the wrong guy with wrong testimonies and fake evidence.
THis is one of the cases that demonstrates how wrong the death penalty is - the heavier the crime, the more emotional all parties, the higher the pressure to get results and the higher the likelihood that the first decent suspect will get nailed no matter what.
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Totoro
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posted August 23, 2009 05:19 PM |
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Most of the families are outraged and can't understand why getting cancer means he got a "get out of jail free card."
That was in my opinion a "crime" against the 270 victims and their families.
What is done is done, no matter whether the guilty gets punished or not. Those who seek revenge are nothing but selfish because they merely want to bring satisfaction for themselves.
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Elodin
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posted August 23, 2009 06:36 PM |
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The thing here is that if the case would be reopened - which would be possible - it's clear that the guy would come free. Ths would raise lots of questions about what went down in that case - not to mention give Libya an opportunity to sue for getting the recompensations back they paid for the victims.
This would take some time of course, so this is the solution of choice for all parties: no going to court again, and the guy is pardoned due to his condition.
Perhaps you could link to reputable sources that indicate he is innocent? The leftist US media is not proclaiming him innocent so I would seriously doubt such evidence exists.
Libya already admitted guilt in the incident. And they were well known sponsors of terrorism.
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What is done is done, no matter whether the guilty gets punished or not. Those who seek revenge are nothing but selfish because they merely want to bring satisfaction for themselves.
I disagree that it is selfish to want criminals to be punished. I don't understand calling victims the selfish ones. It is the criminal who is selfish, not the victim.
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antipaladin
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posted August 23, 2009 07:17 PM |
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Most of the families are outraged and can't understand why getting cancer means he got a "get out of jail free card."
That was in my opinion a "crime" against the 270 victims and their families.
What is done is done, no matter whether the guilty gets punished or not. Those who seek revenge are nothing but selfish because they merely want to bring satisfaction for themselves.
why is it selfish? they can't be selfish? the killer didnt thought of them when making them victoms...
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TheDeath
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posted August 23, 2009 07:26 PM |
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What is it in killing that people get so revolted over?
Didn't you have the opinion that death is worse than torture? 
On another note, I think I'll start to gather some statistics and see how many non-religious people always bring religion into non-religious topics, and then religious people get blamed for that.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 23, 2009 07:30 PM |
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On 28 June 2007 the SCCRC announced its decision to refer Megrahi's case to the High Court for a second appeal against conviction.[42] The SCCRC's decision was based on facts set out in an 800-page report that determined that "a miscarriage of justice may have occurred".[43] Köchler criticised the SCCRC for exonerating police, prosecutors and forensic staff from blame in respect of Megrahi's alleged wrongful conviction. He told The Herald of 29 June 2007: "No officials to be blamed, simply a Maltese shopkeeper."[44] Köchler also highlighted the role of intelligence services in the trial and stated that proper judicial proceedings could not be conducted under conditions in which extrajudicial forces are allowed to intervene.[45]
On 15 October 2008, five Scottish judges decided unanimously to reject a submission by the Crown Office to the effect that the scope of Megrahi's second appeal should be limited to the specific grounds of appeal that were identified by the SCCRC in June 2007.[46]
In January 2009, it was reported that, although Megrahi's second appeal against conviction was scheduled to begin on 27 April 2009, the hearing could last as long as 12 months because of the complexity of the case and volume of material to be examined.[47]
The second appeal was expected to be heard by five judges at the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh. However, on 12 August 2009, Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi applied to have his appeal dropped. Although it would have been necessary to drop the appeal to secure repatriation under the Prisoner Transfer Scheme, this was not a pre-condition for compassionate release, which is what was actually granted. Megrahi's defence team stated in a press conference that their client had been pressurised into dropping the appeal prior to the decision being made on compassionate release, however in his public statement Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill stated that that decision had been entirely Megrahi's own choice. Prior to the appeal being dropped, a procedural hearing at the Appeal Court took place on 11 October 2007 when prosecution lawyers and Megrahi's defence Counsel, Maggie Scott QC, discussed a number of legal issues with a panel of three judges.[48] One of the issues concerned a number of documents that were shown before the trial to the prosecution, but were not disclosed to the defence. The documents are understood to relate to the Mebo MST-13 timer that allegedly detonated the PA103 bomb.[49] Maggie Scott is also asking for documents relating to an alleged payment of $2 million made to Maltese merchant, Tony Gauci, for his testimony at the trial, which led to the conviction of Megrahi.[50]
This is quoted from Wikipedia article about PanAm Flight 103.
The guy wouldn't need to prove his innocence - it would be enough to prove that some of the material his conviction was based upon has been forged.
Moreover, the Libyan government has admitted nothing. It was a Libyan citizen who was convicted, and the Libyan government took the chance to try and get off the embargos and the list of terrorist nations, and they paid only under the condition that they would be removed. In essence they bought themselves off.
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Totoro
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posted August 23, 2009 09:02 PM |
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I disagree that it is selfish to want criminals to be punished. I don't understand calling victims the selfish ones. It is the criminal who is selfish, not the victim.
If a will is based on nothing but one's own feelings, it is a selfish will.
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why is it selfish?
Because the dead cannot be brought back so it doesn't matter what is done to criminals if it wouldn't reduce future incidents. I wouldn't waste resources on such a vague thing as justice when you can use them to prevent future crimes. Often these go hand-to-hand though, so justice seekers are satisfied.
I don't know about afterlife but I don't believe that justice happens while we're walking on this ground, so it should be everyone's own business not to interfere with.
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Elodin
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posted August 23, 2009 11:22 PM |
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@JJ
I asked for a reputable source. Wikopedia can't be used a source.
Here is the New York Times (a leftist paper) saying Libya had acknowledged guilt.
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/pan_am_flight_103/index.html
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Sixteen months after Mr. Megrahi's conviction, Libya acknowledged responsibility and offered $10 million in damages for each of the 270 victims, although that payment later became an issue. Libya offered the money in stages, as sanctions were removed, and the last portion was to come after the United States restored full diplomatic relations. In May 2006 the United States agreed to do so, but that was after the deadline set by Libya in the agreement, so the final $2 million per family was not paid.
Congress is considering legislation that would bar construction of a new American embassy in Tripoli until Libya settles with the families, and with the victims of a previous terror attack, the bombing in 1986 of a disco popular with American servicemen in what was then West Berlin. Lawyers for those victims say their Libyan counterparts had agreed to damage payments but then reneged.
@ Totoro
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If a will is based on nothing but one's own feelings, it is a selfish will.
Ah well, we have a differnce of world views. I view jutice as an important thing and it is often a deterent to crime.
I have noticed when watching a movie and the bad guy gets stomped by the good guy eveyone in the theatre cheers so I think lots of people have a sense of justice and don't consider that to be a selfish thing.
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mvassilev
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posted August 24, 2009 12:09 AM |
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If a will is based on nothing but one's own feelings, it is a selfish will.
Every will is selfish, then?
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sith_of_ziost
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posted August 24, 2009 12:44 AM |
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Good point, mvass. Selfish is not basing things on your feelings, but expecting only one-sided results. Murder is selfish becuase it takes away anything for the victim, only the murderer gains (or loses). But why would one consider murder as selfish? Selfish is such a simplistic term it should not be tied to such a horrendous term like homicide.
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I wouldn't waste resources on such a vague thing as justice when you can use them to prevent future crimes. Often these go hand-to-hand though, so justice seekers are satisfied.
This is so eloquently put, justice is abstract, vague, and people, concrete in their ways, try to employ something that cannot be seen, heard, or touched. Justice as a tool to preventing these is the proper use...
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Shyranis
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posted August 24, 2009 01:15 AM |
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I have noticed when watching a movie and the bad guy gets stomped by the good guy eveyone in the theatre cheers so I think lots of people have a sense of justice and don't consider that to be a selfish thing.
Everybody wants to see that. Movies are fantasy worlds, like Homm. Everything is black and white. Everybody likes to see the bad guy get their comeuppance because the villain is always some demon in human guise that feasts on the suffering of the innocent (in one way or another). Everybody with even an ounce of decency (99% of people really) in them likes to see the fantasy pure evil people get stomped into oblivion to at least some degree.
Real life doesn't work like the movie though. Some people commit murder because their families are held at gunpoint for example. Not a good solution, but some people are thrown into extreme circumstances we don't always understand.
I'm not saying that's the case with this person however.
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