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| Thread: Limited Rights or Limited Government? [religious opinions not banned from this thread |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 05, 2009 09:14 AM |
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*ahem* As somebody who prefers to seperate radicals from a religion, it is interesting that some here don't want to do the same for other 'organizations'.
Fox is anything but 'unbiased', to be honest I am not sure there is an 'unbiased' news source left. Each has their own agenda, and one should never believe everything they are told. Did ACORN (as a whole) do this, or just some of their employees? Time will tell. Lets hold off the lynch mobs until then. Of course, I have the torches and pitchforks for sale cheap if nobody wants to wait (joking, if nobody gets that).
Is Obama great and awe inspiring? Hardly. He has inherited one heck of a HUGE mess, however. Lets give him time to sort things out before making any judgements. So he isn't the next incarnation of Jesus, he might end up doing a decent job. Or he could totally tank things. Keep in mind that it is people who want a health care reform, and are pushing government to get it. Despite the fact that it might be a HORRIBLE idea. At least until they can get it right.
Obama is a politician, he is trying to make everybody happy, and failing. He doesn't have the experience needed to do the political dance. So until he wisens up that he can't make everybody happy, he is going to be Fail. Don't forget, however, that he is mostly a figurehead. Look to the 'people' (normal people) for where the problem is.
I think our whole government is FAIL, and nobody we elect or put in is going to do ANYTHING. Problem is, it is all we have..so *shrugs*.
Everybody, lets just all vote neither Democrat OR Republican. I have a vague suspician it won't matter. Even if not a single vote was cast for either, one or the other would be still elected. But I am a crazy conspiricy theorist....
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted September 05, 2009 12:58 PM |
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Quote:
I think our whole government is FAIL, and nobody we elect or put in is going to do ANYTHING. Problem is, it is all we have..so *shrugs*.
Everybody, lets just all vote neither Democrat OR Republican. I have a vague suspician it won't matter. Even if not a single vote was cast for either, one or the other would be still elected. But I am a crazy conspiricy theorist....
This question was risen before, but I think it got lost in the wall of text, so I'll try again.
If we changed the way from voting for a leader who can only promise certain ideas, but in reality may only deliver 10% and then change a lot of other things we weren't interested in, into voting for an idea, which the person, or administration that had to take care of the idea, would only be authorised to so, would that be better?
I know it removes a lot of flexibility, however since when was the last time we needed an urgent change to laws or similar? I believe this way would truely make the opinion of the people shrine, then it can be the very same administrations / persons that stands for getting the specific ideas through who also comes up with these and presents them for the people.
Or to say it short, change the vote for name into vote for idea.
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 05, 2009 01:11 PM |
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Which on paper sounds like a good idea. Here is a few flaws however. ((I really really like the idea, but have to point these out)).
1) Silent Majority, Vocal Minority. The Vocal Minority seems to get what they want because the Majority is .. unfortunately.. silent. In a systems such as you propose, the Vocal Minority would be even more powerful because of point 2.
2) The 'Meh' syndrome. The working person votes a lot less then they should, because often they have to work. It is the people that have very little else to do that gets to vote. Even when the working person HAS a day off, they often are 'meh' about voting. They would rather spend the time with family or relaxing. Which would give more power to those in point 1.
Of course now if there was a National 'Voting Day Off' where you could get paid if you bring something the voting booth people can provide back into work..(and get the whole day off). Then maybe..just maybe.
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Shyranis
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posted September 05, 2009 03:02 PM |
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Exactly, blaming all of ACORN for it is just like blaming all of Christianity for the IRA bombings, or the slaughter of the Huguenots during the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, or for violence against abortion doctors. Or blaming Islam and Judaism for terrorism. It's the same thing. A small fringe bunch of idiots that are morally bankrupt that claim to represent a larger organization.
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ohforfsake
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posted September 06, 2009 04:18 PM |
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Quote:
Which on paper sounds like a good idea. Here is a few flaws however. ((I really really like the idea, but have to point these out)).
1) Silent Majority, Vocal Minority. The Vocal Minority seems to get what they want because the Majority is .. unfortunately.. silent. In a systems such as you propose, the Vocal Minority would be even more powerful because of point 2.
2) The 'Meh' syndrome. The working person votes a lot less then they should, because often they have to work. It is the people that have very little else to do that gets to vote. Even when the working person HAS a day off, they often are 'meh' about voting. They would rather spend the time with family or relaxing. Which would give more power to those in point 1.
Of course now if there was a National 'Voting Day Off' where you could get paid if you bring something the voting booth people can provide back into work..(and get the whole day off). Then maybe..just maybe.
I only know about my community and have a faint idea of my country, but for what I know, here where I live, for whatever it's worth, people seem to take pride in voting, often claiming even a vote for nothing is a vote for democracy and you should always vote.
That's something that solves the problems you list, but however it's what made me come up with the suggestion in the first place actually, because I know a lot of people who especially vote out of habit (have always voted the same no matter what the politics of the given parti was).
I believe having a list of ideas to vote from, in stead of voting for parties and persons would take care the problems I experience, but I agree with you that given people have no interest in democracy, democracy will fail.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted September 06, 2009 08:40 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:42, 06 Sep 2009.
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Exactly, blaming all of ACORN for it is just like blaming all of Christianity for the IRA bombings, or the slaughter of the Huguenots during the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, or for violence against abortion doctors.
Not really since the New Testament says such people are not Christians and the NT is what defines Christianity.
ACORN is being prosecuted in a number of states for voter fraud. It is not an isolated incident and they have a history of doing such and always for the Democrats. And Obama PAID ACORN and formerly was employed by ACORN. And he made sure ACORN got stimulus funds. They are supposedly a non-partisan organization but in reality are a Democrat front group.
Don't get me wrong, Republicans and Democrats are both overall unresponsive to the voters as I said in the opening post. They do their own thing regardless of what the voters say. Too many people vote straight party ticket instead of saying, "Hey Mr "Representative" we told you to do 'this' and you did 'that' instead so I'll vote for a stray dog before I vote for you again."
What is needed is term limits. Let them serve a maximum of two terms and then send them packing. Taht would limit the power of lobyists.
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Fox is anything but 'unbiased', to be honest I am not sure there is an 'unbiased' news source left.
Maybe so but they do allow both sides to have their say. Other networks are not even doing that anymore. And FOX is the only network that is not leftist.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2009 10:59 PM |
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Exactly, blaming all of ACORN for it is just like blaming all of Christianity for the IRA bombings, or the slaughter of the Huguenots during the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, or for violence against abortion doctors.
Not really since the New Testament says such people are not Christians and the NT is what defines Christianity.
Okay then. How about Bill Ayers to the Democrats (a convicted domestic terrorist who didn't kill anybody) and G. Gordon Liddy for the Republicans (a convicted domestic terrorist who also didn't kill anybody, but planned to). The ties are tenuous at best.
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ACORN is being prosecuted in a number of states for voter fraud.
As already mentioned twice. As I said, does getting prosecuted make it true?
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It is not an isolated incident and they have a history of doing such and always for the Democrats.
They typically hire jobless vets and ex convicts that can't get work. Typically people that vote Democrat. *shrug* It's like saying the the employees of Blue Cross typically vote Republican and support Republicans. It's what they work with. How about the NRA? Aren't they always for the Republicans? (I have nothing against the NRA, just pointing out their constant support.)
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And Obama PAID ACORN and formerly was employed by ACORN.
He hadn't actually paid ACORN (Factcheck.org). And he wasn't involved during the General election. He was however involved with them a bit in the mid 90's and under-represented those ties during the election to try to distance himself further from them (see the factcheck article for this also).
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And he made sure ACORN got stimulus funds. They are supposedly a non-partisan organization but in reality are a Democrat front group.
You were lied to again. ACORN would have to compete with hundreds of other groups to get the money and did not get any stimulus money. (Factcheck.org). I suppose you've also heard the talking points implying ACORN would somehow get health reform money too? (Factcheck disproves that too. Or the FUD that ACORN will be conducting the census?
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Don't get me wrong, Republicans and Democrats are both overall unresponsive to the voters as I said in the opening post. They do their own thing regardless of what the voters say. Too many people vote straight party ticket instead of saying, "Hey Mr "Representative" we told you to do 'this' and you did 'that' instead so I'll vote for a stray dog before I vote for you again."
What is needed is term limits. Let them serve a maximum of two terms and then send them packing. Taht would limit the power of lobyists.
IMHO, I agree with you. But personally I think both parties should be dissolved and have their names removed as possible party names so that other parties could spring to life and actually be held accountable for what they say when they get elected instead of having steady, unflinching bases that selectively ignore the abuses done to them.
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Fox is anything but 'unbiased', to be honest I am not sure there is an 'unbiased' news source left.
Maybe so but they do allow both sides to have their say. Other networks are not even doing that anymore. And FOX is the only network that is not leftist.
Most networks used to be somewhat centrist really. I've seen plenty of networks that had Republican and Rightist speakers on them. Though I agree, it's sad that more and more of them are doing the Fox News style of mic cutting, talking over and shushing people they don't agree with. It actually sickens me pretty badly, I can't watch any American news seriously when they have somebody they disagree with because every station rigs it so they "win". All American networks are turning into this because it's profitable. Even Liberals sometimes whine about how one-sided every station is.
The trick is just not to trust the TV at all.
Please note that I've agreed with you that Obama has made many abuses and has done many bad things for the country but so has every President and really, it's still pretty early to judge him on some of the things he hasn't done that he promised. Still, you're chasing after this ACORN thing like it's actually something that really matters in the face of more legitimate abuses, even though it's been discredited at every turn by anything remotely moderate.
Factcheck.org is a non-partisan website that checks everything spouted by or about politicians concerning major policies or election mud slinging. It's been cited by Dick Cheney to win debates. It defends against baseless accusations done by both sides of what should be a debate with many sides...
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Elodin
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posted September 07, 2009 05:56 AM |
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Actually Obama admits to paying an ACORN subsidiary 800,000 to "get people out to vot." His people had initially said it was for polling purposes until called on it.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/election/s_584284.html
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U.S. Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign paid more than $800,000 to an offshoot of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now for services the Democrat's campaign says it mistakenly misrepresented in federal reports.
An Obama spokesman said Federal Election Commission reports would be amended to show Citizens Services Inc. -- a subsidiary of ACORN -- worked in "get-out-the-vote" projects, instead of activities such as polling, advance work and staging major events as stated in FEC finance reports filed during the primary.
One of the house Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee wants an official Congressional investigation on ACORN but the other democrats on the committee are blocking it. He had previously opposed investigating them.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/20/conyers-suggests-probe-of-acorn/
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In an startling partisan shift, House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers Jr. on Thursday proposed holding hearings on claims the liberal activist group ACORN engaged in a pattern of crimes ranging from voter fraud to a mob-style “protection” racket.
Mr. Conyers, Michigan Democrat and fierce partisan, suggested a congressional probe after scathing testimony about the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) during a hearing on various voting issues related to the 2008 presidential election.
Mr. Conyers called the accusations “a pretty serious matter.”
“I think that it would be something that would be worth our time,” he said during Thursday's hearing. “We've never had one person representing ACORN before the committee. ... I think in all fairness we ought to really examine it.”
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How about the NRA? Aren't they always for the Republicans?
Actually, they support whatever candidate supports the Constitutional right to bear arms.
Anyways, that is the last I'll say about ACORN because the "you just can't let it go" speech will be soon coming soon otherwise.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted September 07, 2009 06:28 AM |
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jaja i wish we had something here even similar to your "constitutional right to bear arms", people are getting slaugthered as crime rates reach the sky and if u shoot one of these negros in self defence then u get to stand on trail and probably prision.
A neighbour did that, shot someone on self defence, while the aggresor was shooting at him and he spent a month in prision and that´s because he has lots of cops as friends. I remember that when the corpses were carried out if his house, the whole family of the attacker was a block distance from there and shouted very loud "you are next, we are going to kill you" and things like that...people and cops noticed but nothing was done.
This neighbour of mine has an armery (dont know if i spelled it right but its a place were you buy guns) and they sent him to prision cause he was a danger to society as he had knowledge of guns and guns were meant to kill. Come on!
Dont draw me like a nazi but i would give an arm to have the same privilages you guys have!
BTW, when i say negros, i do not mean black people, just the expression in here to point out that a person is ...well lets say bad intentioned and does not have anything to do with the colour of skin.
I live in argentina.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 08, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Getting people to vote is a FAR cry from paying ACORN to sign fictious people up. I have hired Home Depot to install my washer/dryer, am I responsible for them shorting people of overtime? Hardly.
Dick Chaney (spelling?) Worked for Halliburton. Helped them get a huge government contract. Don't see anybody saying anything about that. It is Halliburton's job to KILL people. Guess that is different though.
Believe nothing of what you hear, only 10% of what you see, and the things you do believe double check with OTHER sources.
I am neither for or against Obama, because I think it is too early to tell.
[sarcasm]Paid for by the Obama Administration for getting the facts strait[/sarcasm]
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Elodin
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posted August 14, 2012 12:11 AM |
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Hey, Romney's new running mate, Ryan, has the same idea about rights as the founding fathers did!
Clicky
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But America is more than just a place...it's an idea. It's the only country founded on an idea. Our rights come from nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.
This idea is founded on the principles of liberty, freedom, free enterprise, self-determination and government by consent of the governed.
This idea is under assault. So, we have a critical decision to make as a nation.
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Doomforge
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posted August 14, 2012 12:15 AM |
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He's a politician. Chances he believes in what PR people wrote for him to say are pretty slim.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted September 04, 2012 03:58 PM |
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Thank you for bringing the subject of government vs people,Elodin!
I want to quote this:
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Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:224
I studied finance at the university.There I learned that the rules that Adam Smith wrote about the market forces were proved not working by the Great Depression.
Then Keynes wrote his Theory of employment,interest and money,in which he proposed the government to take bigger part in the economic processes and to regulate much of the economy.
After that period we have not only the Communism,which meant all in the hands of the government,but in the States and Europe governments began playing their power role.
George Orwell wrote his book "1984",in which he explored a world,where the Big Brother watches you whenever you go,whatever you say and where you have the freedom to be tortured and killed without notice and nobody will ever remember you existed.
I hope that we as people are conscious enough to not let this become a reality,that we can stand and speak in defence of our rights,which we want to give to our children after us!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted September 04, 2012 08:17 PM |
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If he was inspired by the founding fathers ideas, he would also be for fixing the election system into what it was suppose to be: Segregated by state borders. He is just lieing his teeth out, like any other politican.
And if we are getting on the topic again? There is a keyword of "Too big to fail", which usually happens to the banking industry. If a corp are too big to fail, they really don't deserve to live, for any downturn they take will result in them holding the marked as hostages. Its a good example of where a goverment could step in, and split into fractions, stop faulty markeding conditions from making it that big in the first place, or do nothing.
The other problem is that a goverment is usually by nature too big to fail, but as it has a secured cash deposite regardless, it usually never fail unless poorly managed. And poorly managed states exist.
There also exists poorly managed states which do not fail, because they got something to delay it, weither its a booming economy or nationalized oil. So as a anarchist would put it: A state is a defacto entity that holds its citizens as hostages.
A state usually allow itself to make laws too, and there are several historical examples that exists for both abuse and common good. Feudalism usually provides enough examples of a state abusing its citizens, while even something like forcing all food producers to properly mark their food is a example of a good.
But to don't write a too long post: Modern countries usually share their core problems with feudalism, as in that there usually is no way of removing the desillusioned rulers who no longer comprehend reality. Voting systems usually usure that incompetent people with no progressive spirit will hog a nice 70-90% of the seats, and on the top of that there will be nepotisme and outright corruption.
So what is this talk about goverment oppression about? Its either a sympthon of imbecils leading a country, a election system ensuring a stalemate between extremists, or the wrong people getting their wrong ideas trough the system to perform sympthon treatment instead of disease treatment.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted March 26, 2013 03:54 AM |
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Imagine working your whole life, sacrificing some present pleasures in order to put aside money for your retirement. As you become older and frailer and near retirement the government swoops in and steals 40% of your life savings. Now your careful planning has been destroyed and you'll not be able to retire.
What do you think? Should a government have the power to seize 40% of your bank account because its spending has been undisciplined, unwise, and out of control for many years? Or do you have a right to your property(you've paid all your taxes through the years?)
Cyprus
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Imagine waking up to find out that as much as 40 percent of the money you thought was safely deposited in the bank was seized, without your permission, to bail out a near-bankrupt government.
That's just what thousands of large depositors in Cyprus woke up to Monday morning after European Union officials accepted a last-minute deal offered by the island's lawmakers to secure a $13 billion bailout to avert imminent financial meltdown.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 26, 2013 07:42 AM |
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Should a government have the power to seize 40% of your bank account because its spending has been undisciplined, unwise, and out of control for many years? Or do you have a right to your property(you've paid all your taxes through the years?)
Kind of a silly question, because, yes, you have a right to your property, but also, yes, a government has that power, because that's in the nature of GOVERNMENT.
I mean, if your government has the power to involve you in a war (that will at least cost you money to finance it), then it really isn't that surprising that a government not only has the power, but also makes use of it to avert something deemed even worse. That's the task of a government - which changes, by the way, so if spending has been unwise, then it's not necessarily the same government who has to deal with the resulting mess.
This should also be fairly obvious.
Also obvious should be that a country stands and falls with your government, because what your government does will reflect on you. If your Secretary of State offends the leader of another nation, that may have repercussions for the whole country.
So whether you like it or not, a government DOES have a massive amount of power, otherwise that kind of institution simply doesn't make sense. If you'd start asking the population for permission for everything you do, you wouldn't need a government in the first place and instead rule a country with an administration making internet polls.
Also, yes, it looks hard - but think of the effect global deficit spending has on the economy. Your country has a debt of 12 Trillions, most of it via a war you approve, but many condemn. The consequence of that is, your country pays a lot of interest money to the likes of China, and that in turn is massively increasing inflation (since there has been so much more money spent that shouldn't have existed because it hasn't been covered by anything). Inflation does the same thing to your life savings than a direct governmental seizure, because the money you saved 20 years ago is now worth squat, and even with the interest you got, you didn't do a good deal, because what you COULD save then is worth a lot less now.
I don't see much of a difference there - except that Cyprus has had inflation as well, of course.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted March 26, 2013 07:58 AM |
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17. Not 12.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted March 26, 2013 09:39 AM |
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This idiotic concept that everyone is fit to vote for leaders or key decisions that have an effect on OTHERS, when likely they have no idea what a good leader is has allowed many imbeciles to reach a positions of power due to the ignorance of the electorate.
How can you have you hope to uphold your civil liberties when a burden on society in theory (and practice from what I've seen) has equal weight of influence as someone who's worked all his life and has the respect of his/her community?
The concept that 'heroes and cowards' are honoured alike has to stop.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 26, 2013 09:51 AM |
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Cyprus eh? I still want to know why they are not issuing a Interpol arrest order for the various EU conglomerates that caused this mess.
Seriously.
1. Issue order to tax banks
2. Banks default due insane tax
3. Offer banks loans to avoid default
4. Bank now in debt due tax setup
5. They earn money because they forced the banks to default
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted March 26, 2013 11:05 AM |
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Maybe getting all facts straight about that cyrpus issue would help NOT sounding like a propaganda machine?
Accounts with lower than 100,000 Euros are NOT affected (I think that is a good amount of money for a retirement, eh?)
Around 26 trillion Euros are deposited on those banks in cyprus, most of those euros are NOT from cyprus people, but from russian millionaires...
Living beyond one's means too long will have bad effects one day...
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