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| Thread: Limited Rights or Limited Government? [religious opinions not banned from this thread |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted March 26, 2013 11:37 AM |
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The Govermnent (including American Government) can as well recruit you and send you to a foreign land to die fighting "terrorists" against your will, so taking a few bucks out of your account seems to be pretty pale in comparison.
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xerox
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posted March 26, 2013 11:49 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:54, 26 Mar 2013.
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This is one of the great flaws of democracy. People who have no idea of how the economy works vote on politicans who have no idea of how the economy works. So the people end up taking the toll for the failed, populist policies of the very same politicans they voted for. I am very much in doubt that combining democracy with national economics is a good idea.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted March 26, 2013 12:53 PM |
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The Govermnent (including American Government) can as well recruit you and send you to a foreign land to die fighting "terrorists" against your will, so taking a few bucks out of your account seems to be pretty pale in comparison.
For some reason I don't see the government stealing money from your bank account to be equal to needing the military defending the nation. 40% is more than a "few bucks."
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Zenofex
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posted March 26, 2013 01:05 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 13:05, 26 Mar 2013.
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This is one of the great flaws of democracy. People who have no idea of how the economy works vote on politicans who have no idea of how the economy works. So the people end up taking the toll for the failed, populist policies of the very same politicans they voted for. I am very much in doubt that combining democracy with national economics is a good idea.
... then again politicians who "know how the economy works" usually preach unpopular policies, justifying them with with the laws and the dynamics of the economy, by placing the burden of the reforms on the (relatively) low income part of the population which is usually the vast majority. The much smaller "rich" part is usually unaffected or very selectively affected because it can lobby itself out of the changes. And then there are the speculators who are usually one of the main reasons for major economic issues who can get away by wasting somebody else's money (they don't produce anything anyway, they just artificially move the prices up and down). Really now, for every dumb "squeeze the rich" economic decision there's usually at least one equally dumb "the poor be damned" process already in motion. So, in short, the whole thing rarely has something to do with who knows how the economy works.
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Salamandre
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posted March 26, 2013 02:18 PM |
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needing the military defending the nation.
I would wish to hear one valid explanation about how the 5000 US soldiers who died in Iraq were defending the nation.
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fauch
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posted March 26, 2013 02:22 PM |
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the cyprus news caused quite a massive uproar, so we know what people think about it. that's also probably the reason why the UE finally accepted the russian proposition. they didn't want to, but maybe they now fear that refusing it will make them look like the bad guys (lol  )
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Accounts with lower than 100,000 Euros are NOT affected
I read they would have been taxed about 6%. and account above 100.000 would have been taxed 10%
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Around 26 trillion Euros are deposited on those banks in cyprus, most of those euros are NOT from cyprus people, but from russian millionaires...
billions, not trillions. it's cyprus, not the USA.
oh, I also read that, technically, what is on your bank account doesn't really belong to you. sure, you can withdraw it whenever you want, but if for a reason or another, it would become unavailable (such as the bank going bankrupt) it's unsure you would receive any kind of compensation.
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Salamandre
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posted March 26, 2013 02:27 PM |
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Yeah the majority wins again, there is a persistent bias nowadays to punish people who made it. Look in France with all the mediocre idiots being happy with the %75 tax for rich.
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fauch
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posted March 26, 2013 02:30 PM |
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well, I heard Hollande is quite low in polls now. but that doesn't make much of a difference now that he is elected and most likely doesn't care. in the worst case he can still send the cops to convince us he is right...
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2013 03:56 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:58, 26 Mar 2013.
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I would wish to hear one valid explanation about how the 5000 US soldiers who died in Iraq were defending the nation.
Millions of people, mostly civilians, died because they invaded a country for its resources, oil. The so-called reason, weapons of mass destruction turned out to be a lie. Even the fabricators of that lie don't deny that anymore. Yet it doesn't even have the impact of the Watergate scandal. I guess the bigger the lie is, the harder it becomes for people to admit it, so no one shouts the king is naked. Some Americans still don't realize the rest of the world sees those soldiers as stormtroopers out there.
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Zenofex
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posted March 26, 2013 05:00 PM |
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It's far more 2D actually. Local issues are always > than remote issues. On the other hand issues that affect you directly (like taking money from you) are always > than issues that affect other people (they can as well go to hell in most circumstances). Then comes the broken rationale about the public spendings in most people's heads - i.e. if the government declares that it increases the taxes paid by the regular John Doe by 1% an outcry from the public is very likely; if on the other hand the government declares that it's starting a multi-billion "defense project" or that it will send X soldiers, tanks, jets, etc. abroad, then usually nobody cares that the money for these endevours will again be taken from the taxpayers' pockets. Combine all the ingredients and you get Elodin's response.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 26, 2013 06:25 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 18:27, 26 Mar 2013.
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I would wish to hear one valid explanation about how the 5000 US soldiers who died in Iraq were defending the nation.
Yes, they were sent to dismantle a government that was becoming a sore for the US economy. If defending your oil imports is not defending a nation, than you need a some classes in GeoPolitics.
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Millions of people, mostly civilians, died because they invaded a country for its resources, oil.
Millions is a gross overstatement. At MAX it was some 20K or 10K.
Again, I have no sources, but so do you.
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The so-called reason, weapons of mass destruction turned out to be a lie. Even the fabricators of that lie don't deny that anymore. Yet it doesn't even have the impact of the Watergate scandal. I guess the bigger the lie is, the harder it becomes for people to admit it, so no one shouts the king is naked. Some Americans still don't realize the rest of the world sees those soldiers as stormtroopers out there.
I always wonder why people bash the US when they were NEVER affected by the US actions.
Here is another perspective, those "Stormtroopers" saved our asses from Serbian military. If it was not for their intervention, I would either be dead or living in the streets right now and thats because crossing borders or moving around those times meant to recieve a sniper bullet in your head or detention or a bloody beating and losing all your property by plunderes.
And what do you mean with world? The only parts of the world that see the US in a bad way are Slavic countries+Greece, Muslim Countries, NK, Cuba and thats because all of them have a Superiority Complex and people feel compelled to compare their complex, with that of the Americans.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2013 06:42 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:58, 26 Mar 2013.
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Millions is a gross overstatement. At MAX it was some 20K or 10K.
Again, I have no sources, but so do you.
I may not find the link in 5 minutes but I clearly remember reading the causality numbers as roughly over 3 million in total.
Edit: According to wiki it's much less but still in millions and not even close to 20k.wiki
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Here is another perspective, those "Stormtroopers" saved our asses from Serbian military. If it was not for their intervention, I would either be dead or living in the streets right now and thats because crossing borders or moving around those times meant to recieve a sniper bullet in your head or detention or a bloody beating.
That was under another administration and the call was made by United Nations. What is your point here, the US government should just do as it pleases, fabricate lies, tell UN to just **** off and we should sit and say "Hey, they were the good guys in Normandy and Bosnia"
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And what do you mean with world?
Yes, the world. Even their long-term ally Britain's people were against being in Iraq by 75 percent according to polls (but the soldiers were there anyway). During Bush administration the disapproval of US action and foreign politics got so high, some journalists even say that's the reason Obama had become a candidate in the first place. Americans themselves wrote blogs apologizing from the world when Bush was elected the second time.
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I always wonder why people bash the US when they were NEVER affected by the US actions.
I wonder what would you think if the GEOpolitics required it was your house under the bombs. Remember, back in the 80's Afghanistan and Iraq were "allies" of US too. Unjustified action is unjustified no matter who it affects.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 26, 2013 07:08 PM |
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I would wish to hear one valid explanation about how the 5000 US soldiers who died in Iraq were defending the nation.
Yes, they were sent to dismantle a government that was becoming a sore for the US economy. If defending your oil imports is not defending a nation, than you need a some classes in GeoPolitics.
It was a Kuwaiti trap. We know that Hussein invaded Kuwait for solely personal reasons (he had been grossly offended, and like the god-like dictator he was he decided to wash the offense off with blood) - and of course every attack on Kuwait will lead to the US intervening. It was simply a Kuwaiti-Saudi trap - Hussein marched into, not believing the US would actually intervene.
Of course that removed the balancing force with a view on Iran, so in reality nothing has been gained.
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del_diablo
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posted March 27, 2013 02:59 PM |
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angelito said....
Per monday, last news drafts I have read, the law was IN DRAFT, meaning you are essentially a propaganda machine yourself.
Regardless of what the law is drafted into, so long it causes a bankrun AND a loan to avoid that, its high daylight robbery.
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Doomforge
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posted March 27, 2013 03:56 PM |
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For some reason I don't see the government stealing money from your bank account to be equal to needing the military defending the nation. 40% is more than a "few bucks."
As long as invading a sovereign country because a politician told you so is "defending" to you, there's nothing we can talk about.
Besides, I guess you value your life lower than your money?
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 27, 2013 04:39 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:50, 27 Mar 2013.
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man, you're saying this like it was the soldier's fault we went somewhere we didn't belong.
And where am I exactly saying that? All I talked about was the government. But since you brought it up, military service is not mandatory in the States so most people who enlisted knew what they were being part of, weren't they. It was a deliberate choice. If you join to travel the world but what you call traveling others are calling invading then you can't expect them to feel exactly sympathetic, can you? Anyway, I'm glad you didn't get blown up. I'm sure there are good men among those soldiers but it was not a post necessarily to mention that.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 27, 2013 04:43 PM |
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I think the phrase is - "Those who will give up safety for freedom, deserve neither." Sorry don't remember who said it..but it applies.
I am for a balanced government, but that is a pipe dream. A government big enough to provide a good infrastructure (IE roads, etc), schools, military, and such..but not big enough to put its boot to your neck and take everything it dang pleases when it pleases. I am not against taxes, because those roads/etc cost. I don't feel the rich should be punished for being rich, but I also don't feel the poor should be punished for being poor. People should not have to chose between buying food or paying rent.
I do believe that some regulations are good, and that some are just idiotic. You drink and drive, you should be punished. You drink in your own home, the government should stay the heck out. HOWEVER..where do we draw the line? What if Pa Jones wants to teach his 7 year old that incest is good? Should we just 'stay out of it'?
Also, I don't believe a group has the right to tell people "You can't get married." As long as it is between two consenting adults, stay the F out of it. Now by all means if one is not able to give consent, either by mental defect or not being old enough to know what consent means..yeah ok I can see interfering. Let other people be as miserable as any other married couple .
I am slightly to the left, but mostly moderate. If people want to have guns, let them keep the guns. Unless those guns are being used to kill people, government should stay out of it. If people want to teach hate in the name of religion, more power to them. I'll feel sorry for them, but not my place to tell them how to raise their child. Just as we should not force them to teach something they don't believe in, they should not force us to teach something we do not believe in.
I will leave you with another famous quote...something some religious people conveniently seem to gloss over. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto me what is mine."
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Salamandre
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posted March 27, 2013 05:47 PM |
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like to expect is to stop hearing about how the u.s. does this
Not gonna happen. Unfortunately, US doing this or that affect all nations around, and most often have negative impact on others. So people talk about, that's the privilege and the backside of being super power.
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Zenofex
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posted March 27, 2013 06:42 PM |
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while i'm at it, if a country cannot defend itself from international bullies, then i'm not going to shed a tear for them.
Well yeah, the most modern weaponry, intelligence, logistics and so on vs. technologically obsolete and usually undertrained "armies" with questionable morale is quite a fair fight. If I come to bully you with a tank and you have a pocket knife, it's your fault if you couldn't defend yourself properly. 
Some of the things you say are reasonable but there's the thing that, from a military perspective, the US is incredibly spoiled. You've never had a big-scale war on your territory and just don't know how cool it is to bombard your houses, kill your relatives and so on cool things. Going abroad to do these things to other people doesn't count, sorry. Say what you will but that plays a big role in the typical American's apathetic view about his government invading country X.
And somewhat related to the topic - I just can't figure out how spending many billions on military projects and enterprises is never considered a problem. You can fix a pretty large number of your social issues if you just cut your military spendings by some 15-20% (that would be more than 100 billion greens) but nobody seems to even consider pressing the government about that. Announce some new tax which will make you pay to the state 20 extra dollars monthly and it's the end of the world. Take no offence, things like that make your country look arrogant and irresponsible to people living elsewhere.
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MeanMan
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posted March 27, 2013 11:26 PM |
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I think the phrase is - "Those who will give up safety for freedom, deserve neither." Sorry don't remember who said it..but it applies.
It's the other way around, giving up freedom for safety, not safety for freedom.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (1775)
- Benjamin Franklin
However, maybe you mean a different quote?
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