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| Thread: [Mod Design] Faction Independent Class System |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2010 11:19 AM |
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magic protection (protection, sap magic, fire resistance, and that protection perk for the necromancian) in defence and magic resistance (resistance, barbarian luck, dwarven luck) in luck. makes sense.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 14, 2010 01:44 PM |
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Barbarian luck is a broken skill in toe 3.1, it doesn't work as it should, it just gives +5% magic proof, but I can make it 15% or 20%.
If you place all these kind of skills in one skill the shatter destruction skill becomes almost useless if players are able to stack up 70-80% magic proof (not even addressing the question whether this ability would be balanced at all).
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Thanquol
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 27, 2010 10:44 AM |
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Edited by Thanquol at 11:06, 27 Jan 2010.
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Excellent idea with an increased number of more finely defined classes.
However, I am not sure that making the racial skill open to everyone is going to work to well. Instead I'd suggest keeping the racial skill and pairing it with regular skills to define the Classes.
Also, there seem to be enough sensible combinations to allow for at least 4 classes for each faction.
Following are my suggestions for the Class names and pairing skill - with secondary skills in ().
HAVEN: Counterstrike
Knight - Defence (Logistics, War Machines)
Crusader - Leadership (Attack, Luck)
Cardinal - Light Magic (Enlightenment, Defence)
Paladin - Shatter Dark (Light Magic, Leadership)
INFERNO: Gating
Demon Lord - Attack (Leadership, War Machines)
Demonologist - Logistics (Luck, Leadership)
Heretic - Dark Magic (Shatter Light, Sorcery)
Pyromancer - Destructive Magic (Defence, Light Magic)
NECROPOLIS: Necromancy
Death Knight - Attack (Defence, War Machines)
Reaver - Shatter Light (Leadership, Luck)
Necromancer – Summoning Magic (Enlightenment, War Machines)
Defiler - Dark Magic (Shatter Summoning, Sorcery)
SYLVAN: Avenger
Ranger - Logistics (Attack, Luck)
Warden - Defence (Leadership, Dark Magic)
Preserver - Shatter Destruction (Light Magic, Summoning Magic)
Bard - Luck (Logistics, Shout)
DUNGEON: Irresistable
Beastmaster - Logistics (Attack, War Machines)
Guildmaster - Luck (Leadership, Defence)
Warlock - Destructive Magic (Luck, Dark Magic)
Sorcerer - Sorcery (Destructive Magic, Enlightenment)
FORTRESS: Runelore
General - Defence (Attack, Leadership)
Engineer - War Machines (Logistics, Attack)
Runemage - Destructive Magic (Luck, Sorcery)
Sage - Enlightment (Light Magic, Shatter Summoning)
ACADEMY: Artificer
Seer - Enlightenment (Shatter Dark , Defence)
Wizard - Sorcery (Destructive Magic, Luck)
Illusionist – Summoning Magic (Light Magic, Attack)
Battle Mage - War Machines (Leadership, Logistics)
STRONGHOLD: Bloodrage
Barbarian - Attack (Defence, Luck)
Warlord - Leadership (Logistics, War Machines)
Prophet - Enlightenment (Shatter Light, Shatter Dark)
Shaman - Shout (Shatter Summoning, Shatter Destructive)
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 27, 2010 11:33 AM |
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Nice pickup thanquol!,
I only think you missed one point about the racials. Racial skills will only be available to classes that can really use them. Irresistable, counterstrike and necromancy are the only racials that can be learned by more then one faction (and necromancy will be just as rarely as in H3). If I keep the racials as they are, the mod cannot be created because of hard-coded limitations. Secondly it will be impossible to make dungeon might classes and haven/sylvan magic classes will have a poor starting position.
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Also, there seem to be enough sensible combinations to allow for at least 4 classes for each faction.
True, but the game has a limited amount of heroes and I have a limited amount of time. Furthermore many classes will be a lot the same. For example your cardinal and paladin will offer few possibilities for differentiation. Also starting with shatters was not a very good idea. Because for example, if a class starts with shatter light, it has a wasted skill slot when fighting necromancers.
It is better to pick them during development to accomodate to the enemy.
BTW, I changed my design like this:
There are two new skills:
Combat = redesign of counterstrike, focus on hero attack, can be learned only by might classes. This skill will be especially awesome, Hero fighting will become a true alternative for destructive magic, just like in H4.
Occultism = redesign of irresistable, focus on rituals and support for dark & destructive magic, can be learned only by magic classes.
List:
Knight - Combat
Paladin - Light magic
Heretic - Dark Magic
Ranger - avenger
Warden - defense
Sage - Enlightenment
Demonlord - Leadership
Gatekeeper - Gating
Sorcerer - Sorcery
death knight - combat
reaver - dark magic
necromancer - necromancy
assassin - Logistics
Overlord - attack
Warlock - Occultism
Seer - Luck
Wizard - Artificer
Elementalist - Summoning
Engineer - WM
Runemage - Runelore
Flamekeeper - destructive
chieftain - shouting
veteran - barbarian enlightenment
shaman - shatters x4 (every choice possible)
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Thanquol
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 27, 2010 01:16 PM |
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There are more than 4 Heroes per faction and I fail to see why time would be increased by having 1 extra Class to assign them.
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to make my own mod instead to get what I want.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 27, 2010 05:34 PM |
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There are more than 4 Heroes per faction and I fail to see why time would be increased by having 1 extra Class to assign them.
LOL, yeah but you have to design 8 extra classes + skillwheels and implement them. You have to puzzle out a scheme of 32 classes, make them all different from each other, overcoming many hard coded limitations and still you want to make the whole community happy with it? Impossible! The manual for this mod is already ~250 pages long, with 8 classes more I could easily add another 100. It took me one year to be where I am now, so I wish you good luck!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2010 05:44 PM |
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well, you haven't been working exclusively on this project for one year. if you would put all your time in it, it would probably be done in a few days.
going with 2 classes per faction (might and magic) would have been an easier way I think. and it would probably still offer enough satisfying opportunities.
from my experience, specialized heroes seem much more efficient than balanced ones. you just have to pray to not face a hero specialized in a strategy that counters yours.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 27, 2010 06:22 PM |
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well, you haven't been working exclusively on this project for one year. if you would put all your time in it, it would probably be done in a few days.
No!, counting in the pre-work I did with heroes of axeoth/ashan and learning the required skills certainly three months at least and I should add to that I have a very good memory for IDs etc. Reworking the skills.xdb can be done in one day, but it is the endless process of learning new problems, solving them, bug fixing, testing that takes all the time.
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from my experience, specialized heroes seem much more efficient than balanced ones. you just have to pray to not face a hero specialized in a strategy that counters yours.
Did you play fortress, fortress has a balanced class.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 27, 2010 06:37 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 18:40, 27 Jan 2010.
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I was initially going to speak against starting with shatter, but I'm glad you already deemed it a bad start yourself  I like the idea, though I personally (obviously) have a few different ideas.
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Knight - Combat
Paladin - Light magic
Heretic - Dark Magic
 , although I do admit it seems a bit strange that a more might-based faction like Haven has, essentially, 2 magic-skill starting classes... I assume though the Paladin is a might class who simply implements light magic in it? In that case though it does make it a little painful their only magic class starts with dark magic, which doesn't seem like the ideal image of Haven. Then again, I don't see a full magic-class focussesing on Light, admitted. Tricky.
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Ranger - avenger
Warden - defense
Sage - Enlightenment
Personally I prefer the sorceress, in light of H1 / H2's elf faction with their sorceress hero, I really liked that concept. Also, I was going to suggest pathfinding as a starting skill for one of the heroes, but then I realized H5 doesn't have that as a skill
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Demonlord - Leadership
Gatekeeper - Gating
Sorcerer - Sorcery
Favor Pyromancer with destructive here.
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death knight - combat
reaver - dark magic
necromancer - necromancy
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assassin - Logistics
Overlord - attack
Warlock - Occultism
, though a summoner could also be a decent start and replacement for an assassin. Unless you intend on actually changing the starting magics for factions? If possible, definately consider switching about Dungeon's and Inferno's mage guild, and Academy's and Sylvan's.
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Seer - Luck
Wizard - Artificer
Elementalist - Summoning
Hmm... Can't say I agree here.
Wizard - Summoning
Alchemist - Artificer
Those would be my preference. Seer - Luck seems fine, though War Machines might be suitable here as well, considering the faction's focus on constructs and all.
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Engineer - WM
Runemage - Runelore
Flamekeeper - destructive
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chieftain - shouting
veteran - barbarian enlightenment
shaman - shatters x4 (every choice possible)
Combat might be suitable for one of the might classes to start with. Otherwise,
I agree it would be much easier to start off with 2 hero classes per faction, but I also admit I like the 3-hero system. Nice project, I hope it will see the daylight 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 27, 2010 07:03 PM |
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@Moonlith:
Most of your ideas are actually perfectly similar with the design I started with, but I will explain to you why i changed them later.
Let me first mention the spellschools for dungeon will be destructive+dark and sylvan will have light+summoning. For Academy I'm still doubting destructive+summoning or light+summoning, but after all with the library it is less important.
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although I do admit it seems a bit strange that a more might-based faction like Haven has, essentially, 2 magic-skill starting classes... I assume though the Paladin is a might class who simply implements light magic in it? In that case though it does make it a little painful their only magic class starts with dark magic, which doesn't seem like the ideal image of Haven. Then again, I don't see a full magic-class focussesing on Light, admitted. Tricky.
The problem with haven is the nature of dark and light magic, they are not spellpower-focused, so more then a 30% probability for spellpower or knowledge would 'break' a haven class. So basically paladins and heretics are both balanced classes, with a totally different secondary skill tree. I personally think its a good thing the haven faction has a bad side, after all they are human! i had an initial build with combat+leadership+light magic, but in this concept the leadership class and the light magic class became too similar.
An alternative would be adding in summoning or destructive.
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Personally I prefer the sorceress, in light of H1 / H2's elf faction with their sorceress hero, I really liked that concept. Also, I was going to suggest pathfinding as a starting skill for one of the heroes, but then I realized H5 doesn't have that as a skill.
One hero will get the tracker specialization. I didn't end up with sorcerer because generally in fantasy games, this class is more often connected with bad factions and most certainly not with elves (H2 did not have a racial town). Secondly what should I do with enlightenment if the elves don't get it?
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though a summoner could also be a decent start and replacement for an assassin. Unless you intend on actually changing the starting magics for factions? If possible, definately consider switching about Dungeon's and Inferno's mage guild, and Academy's and Sylvan's.
Dungeon is really the hardest faction, if academy takes summoning and dark is already used twice, then what to do with the dungeon balanced class?
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Hmm... Can't say I disagree here.
Wizard - Summoning
Alchemist - Artificer
Those would be my preference. Seer - Luck seems fine, though War Machines might be suitable here as well, considering the faction's focus on constructs and all.
The artificier skill needs to be connected with the class with the highest knowledge production: 45%. perhaps a little to much for alchemist, but after all changing names is easy. Luck was really hard to connect to a class because it is actually not a skill. I decided the ability to predict the future is probably the best possible connection.
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Combat might be suitable for one of the might classes to start with. Otherwise,
I have to admit the stronghold town has no real classes, because that's impossible (hard coded). But since they have an overload of possible secondaries I decided to use shouting+learning as class defining skills and make them impossible to get for the other classes.
I think you noticed I'm trying to use every skill at least one time. That is making it quite a difficult puzzle.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2010 08:44 PM |
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you could also make each classe starting with 2 skills.
like :
necromancer : necromancy + summoning
reaver : dark magic + defense
dark knight : combat + leadership, if you can find a way so that dark knights decrease moral.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 27, 2010 09:59 PM |
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In a lot of cases the specialization already defines the second skill.
For example: warden + tracker specializations will be defense+logistics.
So that would force me to predefine 3 skills for many heroes. In TOH forums and Temple of Ashan people often complain about predetermined skill choices so I actually like to keep it as free as possible.
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Thanquol
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 27, 2010 11:57 PM |
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There is still a serious unbalancing problem with the fact that only 2 of the racial skills are effectively useable by any faction other than their original one (Counterstrike and Irresistable).
The rest of the racial skills either require buildings only available in the original factions town (Avenger, Artificing and Runelore), doesn't offer main benefits to any units other than those of the original faction (Bloodrage, Gating and Runelore) or offers benefits that is unthematic and doesn't work well with units of other factions(Necromancy).
Of course if you have found a way to resolve these problems then please share.
Anyway, regardless of whether the racial skills are tied to a faction or not then I still think that each class should be defined by 2 primary skills instead of just one.
If you are worried about the extra work required to implement a more sensible spread of classes based on a 2 skill line up then I'd be happy to lend a hand with that (I am working on it anyway).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 28, 2010 12:29 AM |
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The rest of the racial skills either require buildings only available in the original factions town (Avenger, Artificing and Runelore), doesn't offer main benefits to any units other than those of the original faction (Bloodrage, Gating and Runelore) or offers benefits that is unthematic and doesn't work well with units of other factions(Necromancy).
Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I tried to explain to you Runelore, Gating, Bloodrage, Artificer and Avenger WILL NOT be used by other factions. Only Counterstrike (redesigned), Irresistable (redesigned) and necromancy (redesigned). Necromancy will only be available to Inferno and Dungeon (with very low probabilities to get, not disturbing the hero development) because they can sacrifice them and suffer none or minimal morale penalties. If you want more details you can download the xls sheets (they are not the same as what I have now but give the overall idea).
Thanks for offering help, but considering the xdb work I'm pretty much done (aside from the reworking I expect after releasing the mod). I am only interested in people able to make new skins and better icons. For example I would like to have a red colored markal skin that fits the haven faction.
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Thanquol
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 28, 2010 01:31 AM |
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I am sorry that you can't see that what you made is unbalanced.
Oh well, back to my own work then.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 28, 2010 11:30 AM |
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I am sorry that you can't see that what you made is unbalanced.
If there is a language problem you should better notify . If you suspect me of doing A, and I say that's not true I'm doing B. Then you react as: oh well it's unbalanced anyway. That's not an argument.
I have been working on these things since 2007, I have tried pretty much every possible concept: dual class with racials, dual class without racials, triple class with one skill, triple class with two skills. When I first posted this thread I actually had a four way class system. So far this is the only concept I'm able to make working without creating redundant classes and falling into hard-coded traps or making the mod so complex it is not useful as a game for a large group of different people. You should also take in mind I try to fit all the classes in the Ashan lore and have corresponding faces. For example: there are hardly any suitable cleric/cardinal/bard/prophet portraits or models in the game.
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Thanquol
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 28, 2010 02:10 PM |
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I am certainly not opposed to the idea of making the unique skill available to all factions. I just have some concerns about the way you are going about implementing this idea.
IMO then making the unique edge of only of 2 factions available to all the other factions - without giving those 2 factions anything new and unique in return - is going to be unbalancing.
Regarding the Cleric type heroes then you are right that obvious candidates are in short supply, but Beloved of the People, Paragon Knight and Dragonblessed could pass for Cleric like abilities (with a little renaming perhaps).
For a Bard type class then Sword of Sylanna and Swift Striker could easily emulate battle boosting songs.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 28, 2010 02:34 PM |
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IMO then making the unique edge of only of 2 factions available to all the other factions - without giving those 2 factions anything new and unique in return - is going to be unbalancing.
My approach will be that every secondary skill is equally powerful, and every class can pick exactly 6 skills out of a pool of 12. It doesn't matter what the total amount of skills useful for a certain faction is.
It is very well possible to play a faction without using the racial skill, it is not like gating > leadership. Furthermore do not forget that dungeon is still the only faction that can use elemental chains and haven is the only one that can use training. The total amount of useful skills for haven is 18, for dungeon it is 19, for stronghold it is 14. So it is actually stronghold that has the fewest options. Dungeon and haven are very well stocked. The max is Inferno with 20 options.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 28, 2010 04:16 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 16:19, 28 Jan 2010.
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Let me first mention the spellschools for dungeon will be destructive+dark and sylvan will have light+summoning.
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For Academy I'm still doubting destructive+summoning or light+summoning, but after all with the library it is less important.
Are you still aiming though to maintain 3 magic schools of each represented in mage guilds ? If so you'd have to remove Dark from Inferno, and replace it with summoning. What's left for Academy then is Light + Destructive. It seems fitting to me honestly.
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The problem with haven is the nature of dark and light magic, they are not spellpower-focused, so more then a 30% probability for spellpower or knowledge would 'break' a haven class. So basically paladins and heretics are both balanced classes, with a totally different secondary skill tree. I personally think its a good thing the haven faction has a bad side, after all they are human! i had an initial build with combat+leadership+light magic, but in this concept the leadership class and the light magic class became too similar.
An alternative would be adding in summoning or destructive.
Good point. What about making the Paladin a focussed class then though? Hum, again tricky, since then you can't really start a balanced class with haven whithout dark. Actually, thinking about it, it's probably fine the way you intend it here. One alternative could be Enlightment, but meh.
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One hero will get the tracker specialization. I didn't end up with sorcerer because generally in fantasy games, this class is more often connected with bad factions and most certainly not with elves (H2 did not have a racial town).
I'm aware, but I think that made the H2 Sorceress town so interesting She was more like an enchantress, a nice break from the standard evil sorceror concept. Hence I wouldn't mind seeing her return here.
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Secondly what should I do with enlightenment if the elves don't get it?
Academy Perhaps place luck in here with the elves, although that's probably wasted since I assume Sylvan heroes have the highest chance to get Luck on levelup.
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Dungeon is really the hardest faction, if academy takes summoning and dark is already used twice, then what to do with the dungeon balanced class?
Quite frankly, Dungeon is one of the factions which is pretty much fine the way it is with only 2 heroes. I always liked to consider Dungeon the town of powerful extremes, unique in having one extreme might hero (Overlord) and one extreme magic hero (Warlock). So in that sense, I don't think I can help you come up with a different idea for a Dungeon balanced class, since I personally disagree with that addition
A racial skill I considered for the Overlord was slavery, which allows him to capture a small part of the defeated units, who are then send back to the Dungeon town, where they can either be sold or recruited from the prison. I know you can't make such racial skills in HoMM5, but "slaver" might be a useful classname. Starting with logistics I'd say.
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The artificier skill needs to be connected with the class with the highest knowledge production: 45%. perhaps a little to much for alchemist, but after all changing names is easy.
That dependancy can't be changed?
Alternative, there is no way to alter the artificer skill, so maybe other heroes can use it in a different way ? Like allowing you to construct some basic set of artifacts to wear. Not stronger than major or relic artifacts you'd find on the map, but at least slot fillers. Would seem a decent option for the otherwise fragile academy heroes, without alienating it from other heroes.
Likewise; gating, isn't it possible to make this an ability on the inferno units, instead of a skill? Then you could perhaps use Hellfire as a more universal skill instead of Gating, adding a bit of extra fire damage on attacks. Or something else. Avenger; could turn it into something that standardly gives you a minor boost to damage and chance to critically hit, or at least make it possible without the need of the avenger's guild.
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Luck was really hard to connect to a class because it is actually not a skill. I decided the ability to predict the future is probably the best possible connection.
Consider Enlightment But yeah it works.
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I have to admit the stronghold town has no real classes, because that's impossible (hard coded). But since they have an overload of possible secondaries I decided to use shouting+learning as class defining skills and make them impossible to get for the other classes.
I think you noticed I'm trying to use every skill at least one time. That is making it quite a difficult puzzle.
Noticed, but I'm not sure if you need to fit that puzzle I catch myself doing it often as well, wanting to completely 'balance' the schematic on paper. Just because it -looks- good that way, but sometimes I don't think it's a bad idea to step out of line.
Why not allow a bit more lenience ? Keeping the options open about what starting skills to give a hero. Like how currently a Warlock starts with Dark Magic. Frankly it might be boring if they'd all start with the same.
Knights for example, they might have Combat (or leadership) as the norm; what that would mean is that at least 2 would start off with that skill. The other two can be different. Like one having Light Magic, another having Defence, Attack, WM, or Combat/leadership (depending which is not the norm).
Just a suggestion It would give you a bit more space to shift around some skills. Besides, even if Warlocks don't immedeately start off with Occultism, they would have a very high chance of getting it on level up.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 28, 2010 05:12 PM |
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Are you still aiming though to maintain 3 magic schools of each represented in mage guilds ?
Not really, gameplay is more important but on the other hand that also requires variation.
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I'm aware, but I think that made the H2 Sorceress town so interesting She was more like an enchantress, a nice break from the standard evil sorceror concept. Hence I wouldn't mind seeing her return here.
I think i'm going to play safe and name them druids
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Academy Perhaps place luck in here with the elves, although that's probably wasted since I assume Sylvan heroes have the highest chance to get Luck on levelup.
Luck for a warden is not really the point, but enlightenment in academy would actually create two similar knowledge gathering classes, one based on artificer and one on enlightenment
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I don't think I can help you come up with a different idea for a Dungeon balanced class, since I personally disagree with that addition.
Just for symmetry I want every faction to have three classes, but I'm quit happy now. Leadership for overlords solves the poor creature growth from the dungeon faction (which is problematic for might classes. recruitment is very effective for them.
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That dependancy can't be changed?
There needs to be one class in academy with 45% knowledge production, if it is not the one starting with artificer, another class has the possibility to become a better artificer then the artificer-based class. That's contradictive.
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Alternative, there is no way to alter the artificer skill, so maybe other heroes can use it in a different way ? Like allowing you to construct some basic set of artifacts to wear. Not stronger than major or relic artifacts you'd find on the map, but at least slot fillers. Would seem a decent option for the otherwise fragile academy heroes, without alienating it from other heroes.
Likewise; gating, isn't it possible to make this an ability on the inferno units, instead of a skill? Then you could perhaps use Hellfire as a more universal skill instead of Gating, adding a bit of extra fire damage on attacks. Or something else. Avenger; could turn it into something that standardly gives you a minor boost to damage and chance to critically hit, or at least make it possible without the need of the avenger's guild.
I can't do things with skills like that, but the good thing of this system is: you are not forced to use those racials.
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Like how currently a Warlock starts with Dark Magic. Frankly it might be boring if they'd all start with the same.
Warlocks start with occultism not dark magic. There are 4 heroes per class, so already 3x more variation as in H5TOE where every hero starts with the same racial.
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