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| Thread: Native Americans |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 01:31 AM |
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I live near a Indian Reservation in Washington State. Let me speak a bit about the Indians (They don't like to be called Indeginous or Natives like you may keep hearing)where I live okay?
All the ones I know do not hate the White man at all. All of us get along just fine, thank you. Most of their ancestors when the white man came along adapted and adjusted to the white man ways when the white man arrived. And vice versa. Most whites adaped to the Indian ways for survivial.
Things went sour in the 1890's when the U.S.Government sent out people from the East coast who knew nothing of the ways of how the Indians and the Washington white people got along. The east coast government troops even angered the whites here and hated them for what they did. And this is in the 1800's mind you.
Whites and Indians got along here without the government needling in the affairs.
Now, I live near the Colville Indian Reservation in Eastern Washington. And they are an offshoot tribe of the Nez Perce. Both whites and Colvilles have gotten along since they were each introduced to each other around the 1860's or so. The Colvilles were moved to a Reservation and there was no dispute from the Colvilles. They still roamed around as they pleased and there was no wars on either side from the other.
Chief Joeseph, the famous Nez Perce Chief actually sold horses to the troops at the fort that hunted him down before the Fort was ordered from Washington D.C. to hunt them down. Chief Joeseph was a business man first, who spoke fluent English and made the Nez Perce the richest tribe in North America. Which is one reasnon the U.S. Government hated the Nez Perce.
The war between the Nez Perce and the U.S. Government was the first war the United States ever lost. 95% of the tribe made it across the Canadian border, leaving sick women and children behind for the U.S. Government to tend to. The U.S. will never admit defeat, but all involved at the time admit they lost.
Today, the tribes are doing well with Casinos scattered all over the place. And they actually hire white people and other nationalities to help run them.
Finally, as I stated earlier, I have never met one Indian who blames me or my ancestors from what has happened. It is what it was. There is more to real history than movies and 5 cent novels. Indians and whites got along pretty good with each other. It's the U.S. Governement that was ignorant.
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Elodin
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posted October 06, 2009 01:42 AM |
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How do you endure the fact that your beloved country was formed by force-taking the land by European settlers from the right owners?
I certainly don't agree with what was done, but you seem to be ignorant of a number of pertinant facts.
1) The Europeans began to drive the "Native" Americans back (henceforth refered to as Indians.)
2) The Indians did not evolve (nor were not created) in America.
3) The Indian tribes warred amoung each other for territory.
4) The Europeans did not evolve (nor were created) in their respective nations.
5) Europeans fought each other for territory.
6) The human race for all of recorded history has battled for territory.
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What do you think of Indian reservations? Even though they got better in time, don't you think that it was pretty inhuman to gather people in such ghettos - with all the problems it brought, especially in the past: starvation, poverty?
Of course I don't think Indians should have been given a poor choice of land in the cases where they were, nor should they have been forced to live on reservations.
Perhaps you are ignorant that in these times many Indians chose not to live on reservations and many do chose to live on reservations. They do has a certain degree of autonomy in making laws. For example, even in states where gambling is illegal they can generally have casinos on the reservation.
By the way, most Indians that I know are happy to be living in the America that exists today and would rather have air conditioning than to be living in a teepee.
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How do you view the fact that the 20 medals of honor were never taken away from the "heroes" of Wounded Knee? ("heroes" that did a "heroic deed" of, ummm, slaughtering unarmed fleeing women and children).
Sorry, but in your drive to engage in America bashing you have uncovered something I know nothing of. Obviously such things as the Trail of Tears were an abomination but the people guilty are the ones who forced the march, not all of America for all time. Just like I don't blame the German people for Hitler murdering 6 millino Jews and 7 million Chrisitans.
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Are you aware that your country's constitution was inspired by Iroquois' "Gayanashagowa"? Isn't it shameful that the "wild people", mostly exterminated by the settlers, actually were far more civilized then their opressors?
Never heard that one before. The laws pretty much came from teh Judeao-Christian perspective and the founders said they divided the branches of government into three from an inspiration from the Bible.
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. While reading Isaiah 33:22, ““For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us,” it came to James Madison that this is how the government of the United States should be structured. You can thank the Bible for a lack of tyranny in American government. That parallels the prophet, priest, and king in Judaism. The Law (Word of God) came through the prophets, the priests acted as judges, and the king was the executive.
The idea that all men are created equal and endowed by God with inalienable rights is the foundation of the Constituion. That foundation was inspired by the Bible. Rights flow from God to the people and the people establish a government to protect those rights according to the founders.
The Constitution was set up to limit the goverment so that it would not infringe on the rights of the people. The founders were very suspicious of government and knew that government tends to oppress the people. Please see an earlier thread I started called something like "Limited Rights or Limited Government?" for a more detailed examination of this.
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Binabik
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posted October 06, 2009 01:58 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 02:13, 06 Oct 2009.
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[off topic]
@Bytebandit, I spent a summer in Walla Walla as a consultant in approx 1995 or so. I remember there were some reservations nearby but don't specifically remember any of the indians.
[/off topic]
I also lived in Arizona near reservations, mostly Hopi and Navajo. (I went to college there) I never noticed any animosity on the part of the indians, but a lot of the local cowboys were pretty predudiced. I didn't know any of the indians very well. I was just mildly aquanted with a few. We never talked about this stuff though, we just passed them the joint like anyone else.
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Vlaad
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posted October 06, 2009 02:22 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:35, 06 Oct 2009.
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I'm with the cowboys on this one
Although I agree with fellow Europeans in every way that matters, I'm afraid we cannot anachronistically apply present-day ideas when interpreting past events.
I'll also share a personal impression. Being fascinated with the Indians myself, I attended the local powwow. The opening dance featured a Sioux chief carrying the American flag. End of story.
By the way, here's a photo I took at the festival:
All the razzmatazz aside, you'll notice the dance took place on a basketball court.
Finally, always keep in mind we are probably as ignorant about their history as they are of ours:Quote:
@Bak, are you asking why we don't hold grudges and hatred for hundreds of years like the ethic groups in the Balkans? That concept is so totally foreign to us that we can't even grasp the idea, it's completely beyond our comprehension. I see stuff like that and shake my head in wonder, it amazes me that it can even exist.
The ethnic groups in the Balkans were good neighbors and allies for hundreds of years - the recent hostilities are not older than 70 years.
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TheDeath
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posted October 06, 2009 02:29 AM |
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Quote:
 You don't need enemies just beliefs..You can have that without enemies.
Yes I know, that was supposed to be metaphorical (even if the "enemy" is just imagined).
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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friendofgunnar
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posted October 06, 2009 04:42 AM |
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ahh yes, the white folk gave the Indians death, disease, and destruction, and the Indians gave the white folk tobacco. All in all, I think it was a fair trade.
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 05:07 AM |
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A lot of the tribes where I live, the Okanogan, Umatilla, Yakima and others, are basically Nez Perce Indians. The Nez Perce, once they were introduced to the horse, became excellent breeders of the stock and produced the best horses in the country. Tribes as far as south Texas like the Commanche and Arapaho, travelled to Idaho just to trade for them. The Lakotas, or Sioux, always traded for the Appaloosa horses the Nez Perce produced. The Nez Perce were one of the few tribes in North America that never warred against other tribes. Because other tribes knew that if you angered the Nez Perce, you would never get horses from them.
As I stated. The Nez Perce were the richest tribe in North America. They had money. And when the U.S. declared war against the Nez Perce, the war itself was far from what you ave read in history books or, even read online. Here are actual facts that may surprise you:
1. The General at Fort Lewiston was such good friends with the tribe, he gave them a one week head start.
2. There is an area in either Idaho or Montana called the Camas Prairie. There, General Terry, known for participating with Custer, marched into the area with 100 or so soldiers. The Nez Perce killed everyone within a half an hour and purposely let General Terry live so he could march back to his Commander and tell them to leave his people alone. The largest Calvary loss during the Indian Wars. Only 5 Nez Perce were killed.
3. During the chase for the Nez Perce, Chief Joseph would go into a small town, dismount his horse, walk up to the livery stable and ask each owner to buy every horse he could get his hands on. He always was granted the request because he paid for the horses in gold. The U.S. Calvary would oonly give a piece of paper saying they would be reimbursed by the Government after a month or 2.
4. The Nez Perce never, not once, ever killed a civilian. Meaning farmers, merchants, women or children of the white race. And the Nez Perce were always welcome when they came to a town on thier march because they had money.
5. The chiefs never allowed their young braves to drink whiskey or any other alcohol because they wanted thier fighting men to have a clear head.
6. General miles was appointed the head commander looking for the Nez Perce as people from Washington D.C. and the East coast society mogols demanded a quick end to the "Indian problem" in the West. General Miles was the Hitler of the Indian Nations and was barbaric in his methods. Hated by many who were friends of the Nez Perce. Both indian and white alike.
7. When the Nez Perce were finally cornered, General Miles wanted to go in and slaughter all of them. The original General thought that to be a mistake and wanted to hear what Chief Joseph wanted. In doing this, both the original General and Chief Joseph knew this was a delay tactic to get the Nez Perce across the Canadian border.
8. Four days later, Chief Joseph surrendered after his people slipped across the border.
9. The famous saying of Chief Joseph "Where the Sun now sets, I will fight no more" was never heard from Chief Josephs lips. That was something the media wrote for it's East coast audience. It's documented he never daid it but never made public.
10. After the US Government sent Chief Joseph to Oklahoma for 15 years, he went back to his home in Idaho. A white settler now owned it. He saw that the white settle still left Chief Josephs fathers spirit bed intact and turned it into a shrine, where Chief Joseph thanked the man for not destroying it. The settler told the chief he could stop by any time he wanted to, to see his fathers grave.
Ironically, Chief Joseph is buried not far from the General Sherman High School in Omak, Washington on the Colville Reservation. Just a few miles from my house.
And like the previous poster, I partied with the Indians a lot. Got drunk and stoned together all the time. My first encounter with love making was with an Indian girl btw. Best I ever had too.
The country is harsh where I live and we all depend on each other for survivial. If you run into an Indian with an attitude, it's a rare thing. They are the most non racist group of people I have ever known. And I've been around them all.
To really appreciate the Indian yoou have to respect their beliefs, as they do respect yours. Are they savages or ever were? Raising a family and survival is savage no matter what your culture is.
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winterfate
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posted October 06, 2009 05:14 AM |
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@ByteBandit: Long time no see! 
That's a very insightful and nice read. QP material if I may say so myself. 
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 05:39 AM |
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Hello Winterfate!! Long time no see!!
I hate it when I read about people feeling sorry for the Indian. That's not what they want. They have more pride than that. They just want respect like any of us all.
Native American Indian culture and history is a passionate hobby of mine. History books are not fair to the Indian.
White settlers coming across the Oregon trail is another example. There is onlly a handful of accounts where the Sioux attacked the wagon trains. And they only attacked when they were attacked or crossed an area clearly marked for them to go around. Like buriall sites! Imagine someone spitting on your mothers grave. Same thing with the Sioux.
But 75 per cent of people coming across the Oregon trail were outlaws and outcasts from the eastern seaboard of the U.S. They were the main troublemakers with the Indians, not the settlers themselves. It's documented.
But as with any group of people you have your troublemakers. Red Cloud and Sitting Bull were the big names of their groups. General Sherman and General Miles were another set. As a whole 90 per cent of the time, Indians and Whites got along for the most part. They really did. People tend to forget that.
Sure we brought disease and all. But just as many whites as indians died from it. But the indians were the last to get the vaccine. Truly a shame.
But as far as today goes, I know a lot more Indians than I do any other race, and I have yet to run into one that hates the White man. I've worked for a few and had a few work for me. Any mistreatment on either side. wish I could say 'Yes' but I can't.
Yes, they still ride horses today. And cars. And Motorcycles. And Airplanes. And....you get my drift. Gee! I even got beat in Golf by one of the chiefs. I told him afterwards I hated him. He told me to improve my game....with a smile.
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Mytical
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posted October 06, 2009 06:08 AM |
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As one of the few Native Americans (yes I have mixed blood but the majority is Native American) on the board let me say...
The sins of the fathers do not follow their children until seven generations. Do I think what happened is a travesty? Absolutely. Technically the diseases did more to my people then any man did, but that is beside the point.
I harbor no ill will, at all. Crud happens. It is a fact of life. Though I still laugh when I hear people screaming "Immigrants go home." They seem to forget that their people were once Immigrants, just like the 'Native Americans'. In fact chances are except a very small portion of people somewhere (don't ask me where) everybody is decended from 'immigrants'.
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 06:42 AM |
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Yeah! The "Immigrant go home!!" thing is kinda stupid. I agree. Being an American, I harbor no ill will towards mexicans coming across the border. But that's off topic...sort of I guess.
Back to Indians, though, Being a white guy, I was invited by a member of the Alaskan Klinqt tribe to join them. A Klinqt friend wanted me to marry his sister. He showed me the picture of her, I wanted to go...yes! Yes! Just a knockout! But....I had to money to go up there. So it was'nt to be.
My neighbor, when I lived in Tonasket, Wa. was a Colville Indian and he grew pigs and had other farm animals he sold. He sold me a pig and came by every day to see how I was doing with it. Made sure I fed it right and so on. Everytime he needed help with something like one of his fence lines I always went to his place and helped him rebuild it. We never asked for money when we did stuff for each other. Neighbors.
I guess what I'm saying is, when I saw this topic, I wanted to make a point that I get along with the tribes and they get along with me. And I hate reading stuff here, what the White man did to the Indian. Not all White men hated the indian. Only the minority of Whites. And not all Indians hated the white man. The Government of the US in the 1800s failed to realize the potential of a huge society and acted on a barbaric rampage and shady deals that was unwanted by most settlers of the west instead.
The Civil War Generals felt compelled to keep on their killing ways for one reason or another after they attained power in the White House, while the rest of the public dealt with problems in their own way.
Raiding parties from both sides was extremely rare, and blown out of proportion by the newspapers of the time when it did happen. Again, what one reads in history books or sees in the movies or on TV is not the true description of how it really was. They only show the rare and magnified versions of that particular time in US history. But I guess if they showed the true way it was, it would be boring.
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Binabik
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posted October 06, 2009 07:02 AM |
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By definition news is the exception, not the rule. But when you watch/read too much news, the sheer volume of it makes it seem normal. It's like the concentrated version of reality. You have to dilute it with 100,000 parts water to get the normal version.
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Binabik
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posted October 06, 2009 07:07 AM |
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btw, I wouldn't mind living on this reservation
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winterfate
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posted October 06, 2009 07:18 AM |
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Me neither! 
Looks just like a resort. 
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Binabik
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posted October 06, 2009 07:28 AM |
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Pay the Havasupai enough money and you can swim there. You can even pay them to take you down there on horses or fly you there in a helicopter....or you can hike/backpack the 10 miles and 3000 ft drop in elevation to get there.
Yes, it's like a paradise there.
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 07:34 AM |
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I hope Reservations can be preserved for everyone, like State Parks. I love travelling through the Colville Res and see all the untouched land that the White man considered scrub land in the 1800's. Just beautiful.
One thing I do hate seeing is the Colvilles selling outer sections of their Reservation to Developers. I guess they are slowly losing their lands again! But this time for lots of money. They use that money to build Casinos. And the profits of those Casinos go to the tribal members. BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) money is hard to come by now that most Natives are not 'pure' Natives anymore. And so the US Government has allowed them to build Casinos to help fund tribal members and tribal community services instead. I like the idea. The Natives where I live actually have more money now and are healthier than they used to be through the BIA! Good to see. They deserve it. They worked hard to get it too. It's a win/win for everybody where I live.
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angelito
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posted October 06, 2009 07:44 AM |
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I'm not a native american (), but I am mostly with Binabik here.
Of course it was not "nice" what happened that time, but don't blame the current generation for that. I have the same opinion when it comes to germany and Hitler. Don't blame ME for what happened that time!
One more note to Elodin and his list, especially no. 6
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6) The human race for all of recorded history has battled for territory.
Why do you blame the mexicans nowadays then for illegally coming to the states, when it is ok for you the europeans came 1492 and illegally took away the lands of the natives that time?
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Mytical
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posted October 06, 2009 07:53 AM |
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Its what I call the 'other then me' syndrome. As long as it is somebody they know (or are 'like them') it is fine and acceptable. As soon as somebody else does the same thing (like coming uninvited) it is a whole different story.
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Binabik
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posted October 06, 2009 07:58 AM |
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Why do you blame the mexicans nowadays then for illegally coming to the states, when it is ok for you the europeans came 1492 and illegally took away the lands of the natives that time?
We learned from the Indians. A few immigants are OK, but when millions and millions immigrate it's just too many. Initially there was plenty of resources and land for everyone. But the European immigrants just kept comming and comming. I don't think the natives had any idea there could be so many people.
Once again the population is becomming a problem....the growth is just too fast to keep up with it. Even in a country this big, a milliom immigrants a year is a heck of a lot of people to provide for.
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ByteBandit
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posted October 06, 2009 08:00 AM |
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Angelito,
I was'nt making a bad mark on Germans when I referred to General Miles like I did. At the time I wrote the post, I was trying to find the worst person I could compare Miles to. What he (Miles) did to the Natives was unspeakable here. America had it's share of villians just like every country in the world had. You just aren't aware of it because America tends to paint them as 'Heroes."
General Miles was a bad one. So was President Jackson. The guy on our 20 Dollar Bill. He's the one who forced all the Natives east of the Mississippi River to Oklahoma. The Trail of Tears. One of the darkest episodes, to me, in US history. Our Holocaust, if you will. Many died. Many never recovered. Jackson did many good things for this country I guess, but not that event. One could argue he was our Hitler. No offense to all my German friends. But I should'nt have to explain what I mean. He had to have problems sleeping at night once he signed the Bill for the Trail of Tears. Who could do something like that?
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