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| Thread: Native Americans |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted October 06, 2009 01:54 PM |
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@Mytical: 
I'm not touching Hiroshima or Nagasaki, lest I get dragged into a political war. 
My beef is how the US treats other nuclear countries nowadays...when the only documented attack using nuclear technology in HISTORY was by the American military. 
Food for thought.
Yes, the US dropped 2 nuclear bombs on an aggressor nation that attacked the US. The US saved both American and Japanese lives in the process and Japan is now an ally.
Are you refering to how the US (and other nations) is trying to stop Iran from getting nukes?
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Binabik, aiming a post at Elodin with the purpose of showing him an alternate view on things or presenting facts to him not in alignment with his view on things is simply a waste of time.
That has been made abundantly clear with the slavery question - which wasn't, after all, invented by the US, and since the US haven't invented the "territorial war" either, nor any other evil, they are excused for everything they did and do as a matter of course.
Your insistance on continually insulting me just shows the utter weakness of your arguments.
Oh, and if you are claiming I defend slavery you are a liar. I clearly stated slavery is wrong but it is also abundantly clear the US did not invent slavery, the native Americans had slavery, slavery; existed in Africa before the Europeans arrived, Africans sold other Africans into slavery, Europeans brought African slaves to America, and that slavery has existed for all of recorded history and still exists today. So anyone who condemns America for having had slavery in its past is condemning the entire human race.
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angelito
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posted October 06, 2009 05:56 PM |
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So anyone who condemns America for having had slavery in its past is condemning the entire human race.
Always depends on what time slavery was present.
There were times in Europe and America, when enemies' heads were cut off. Nowadays we call some islamic countries "barbaric" coz they still do it.
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angelito
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posted October 06, 2009 06:04 PM |
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I have to agree with Elodin here.
No need to get personal in such a thread. Stay on topic and discuss, or don't react on posts of users who do not post/argue the way ou like. That easy.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2009 06:22 PM |
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No, no, wait a sec, Angelito. Not at all that easy.
Doomforge made this thread SPECIFICALLY for ELODIN - he stated that in his first post and later on again, so this thread is QUITE personal with the first sentence.
Secondly, when I said, there was no reason to bicker about the past, Binabik posted something along the lines that these things about the native Americans were posted SPECIFICALLY with the purpose of showing Elodin something, and I quote what:
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JJ, to quote Bak, keeping in mind that this thread was largely aimed at Elodin...... I think this thread's about showing certain Americans that their country isn't founded on liberty and God-given endless goodness any more than any other
Not personal? I answered this directly, because it's not that long ago that someone brought up the issue of slavery with exactly the same intention - showing to Elodin that the founding fathers were NOT the super-duper über-ultra guys, and Elodin reacted with his "10-point-list" proving once and for all that no American, least of it the founding fathers was at fault for agreeing with slavery.
Why would he think otherwise now with the Natives?
So I can't follow your line of argument here. Not in the least, sorry.
And as an afterthought, I cannot understand why Elodin feels insulted by that post - it's after all his position.
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angelito
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posted October 06, 2009 08:36 PM |
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Directed to Elodin with the topic "Native americans".
I can't see where Doomforge is asking other members about Elodins posting behaviour.
I'm pretty sure you get my argument..
So please, let it be....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted October 06, 2009 09:03 PM |
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It was a chance to start fresh and that's about it. But there's hundreds of sci-fi books written with that theme:
~group of people go to new land, or new planet
~people try to learn from past mistakes and do things better
~works ok for a while then eventually it becomes just as bad as it was before
Yes. And that's why "starting fresh" or "giving another chance" is a load of crap.
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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baklava
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posted October 06, 2009 09:03 PM |
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So you are claiming the US can cram an unlimited number of people in its borders?
Of course not.
But I'm sure the Mexicans would give you beautiful reservations to live in.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted October 06, 2009 11:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
No need to get personal in such a thread. Stay on topic and discuss, or don't react on posts of users who do not post/argue the way ou like. That easy.
So it's forbidden now do opine on what you don't like? That's a bit strange.
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winterfate
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posted October 07, 2009 03:43 AM |
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Are you refering to how the US (and other nations) is trying to stop Iran from getting nukes?
Well...I didn't want to get into this argument per se, but since you asked:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. It's plain hypocritical and judgmental. Who died to give the nuclear countries the right to choose who can have nuclear technology and who can't?
I just mention the US since they also nuked Japan in WWII, but it's just as applicable to every other country with said technology.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted October 07, 2009 05:03 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 05:06, 07 Oct 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you refering to how the US (and other nations) is trying to stop Iran from getting nukes?
Well...I didn't want to get into this argument per se, but since you asked:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. It's plain hypocritical and judgmental. Who died to give the nuclear countries the right to choose who can have nuclear technology and who can't?
I just mention the US since they also nuked Japan in WWII, but it's just as applicable to every other country with said technology.
Again, the US did not use nukes on Japan simply because Japan exists. Japan attacked the US. Nukes saved American and Japanese lives and forced an immediate end to the war.
Of course the madman Ahmadinejad has threatened to turn Israel and the US into a nuclear wasteland. Also Iran is a well known sponsor of terroristm. Only a fool would think Iran would not arm terrorists with nukes if they are allowed to develop them.
And of course terrorists conduct operations in places other than the US and Israel. Any western country would be a prime target for a nuclear attack by radical Islamic terrorists.
Oh, and do you really think Iran's missile testing on Yom Kippur was a coincidence? That is the most holy day fo the Jewish calandar.
It is hardly hupocritical or judgemental to try to prevent such a madman from getting nukes. In fact, I don't see how any sane person could think Iran having nukes is s good idea.
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winterfate
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posted October 07, 2009 05:23 AM |
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Ok, so then in this instance we agree Iran shouldn't have nuclear technology to create nukes. But what if they wanted said technology to make power plants?
And yes, I am aware why the US launched the nukes...hence why I mentioned WWII. 
As a general statement though, the US and the other countries shouldn't decide who gets to use nuclear technology and who doesn't. Instantly assuming (without evidence mind you; the Iran example is already done and dead, we can agree that it's a bad idea) that X or Y country is going to use them for nuclear warfare...well we can go back to square one and mention who was the only country in the world to use them (up to now).
But anyways, we're steering off-topic here. I'm not too sure what nukes have to do with Native Americans.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 07, 2009 06:13 AM |
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This is not the VW, lets try to keep somewhat on topic.
Now what I am about to say might offend some, so proceed at your own risk.
What gets me is this. When the topic of African Americans is brought up, everybody cringes and talks about how horribly they were treated. Which I agree, slavery is a horrible horrible thing. Some of the things done to Native Americans are just as bad, if not even worse. Some of the conditions they were forced to live in were absolutely deplorable. Yet it seems that some African Americans have the belief that they were the only ones who were mistreated. Note : That does not mean that every one of them feel this way, nor that I harbor any ill will toward them.
Lots of people have had many horrible things happen to their Ancestors. Holding that against the decendants of the ancestors of the people who did that to them is senseless. Some of our 'founding fathers' were just as bad or if not worse then a lot of others that I won't mention. They are not saints that should be deified and placed on a pedestal. Nor should they be demonized, it was a different time.
Now, should somebody still be persecuting another people then sure.. I can see harboring ill will then. The people who directly had a hand in it, even if years ago, yes I can see harboring ill will toward.
Anger and hate are like a poison. They get in your blood and slowly eat away at your soul. If you let it take root, it will only get stronger.
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Message received.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 07, 2009 07:25 AM |
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Ok, so then in this instance we agree Iran shouldn't have nuclear technology to create nukes. But what if they wanted said technology to make power plants
Considering that they kicked out the international supervising people, tested missiles, and plain admitted that they would have nukes at some point in the future, I think it's safe to say that we should try as hard as possible to keep that tech out of their hands.
But actually, they would be subject to a MAD too, as the countries they hate the most (US and Israel) have nukes and have way more nukes than them, they would get a nuclear retaliation so bad that there would be a sea on the spot of Persia.
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del_diablo
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Manifest
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posted October 07, 2009 12:18 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Ok, so then in this instance we agree Iran shouldn't have nuclear technology to create nukes. But what if they wanted said technology to make power plants
Considering that they kicked out the international supervising people, tested missiles, and plain admitted that they would have nukes at some point in the future, I think it's safe to say that we should try as hard as possible to keep that tech out of their hands.
So what? Who don't do missile testing these days? And, the country wanting Iran to submit to their divine will got loads of nukes themselves.
If a country without nukes said to them that they should sign some treaty on not making nukes, then its more valid.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 07, 2009 03:29 PM |
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If a country without nukes said to them that they should sign some treaty on not making nukes, then its more valid.
That has been done 
Soon Iran will have the same kind of steel ring around it as North Korea has.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted October 07, 2009 04:06 PM |
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Anger and hate are like a poison.
but they also give you strength.Quote:
and plain admitted that they would have nukes at some point in the future
actually, they didn't.Quote:
But actually, they would be subject to a MAD too, as the countries they hate the most (US and Israel) have nukes and have way more nukes than them, they would get a nuclear retaliation so bad that there would be a sea on the spot of Persia.
It doesn't make a difference if you can destroy a nation one time or 50 times over.
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It is hardly hupocritical or judgemental to try to prevent such a madman from getting nukes. In fact, I don't see how any sane person could think Iran having nukes is s good idea.
The only madman I was in the last decade was George W. Bush and the US who INVADED Iraq. 
and guess what? they were wrong too (about having WMDs), but somehow, they're still divine.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 07, 2009 09:01 PM |
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but they also give you strength.
Anger leads to hate, hate leads to fear, fear leads to suffering [/Yodavoice]
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The only madman I was in the last decade was George W. Bush and the US who INVADED Iraq.
and guess what? they were wrong too (about having WMDs), but somehow, they're still divine.
They invaded Iraq?So what?Why should I care?Their methods pre, during and post invasion were made of 100% fail anyway.
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actually, they didn't.
Ahmadinejad stated that Iran would have nuclear capabilities in the future (He didn't state what kinds of capabilities though, could be a poor translation).
Actually death, I was talking about that if Iran shot ONE nuke to Israel, it would get HUNDRED nukes in return
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TheDeath
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posted October 07, 2009 09:06 PM |
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Ahmadinejad stated that Iran would have nuclear capabilities in the future (He didn't state what kinds of capabilities though, could be a poor translation).
Yes but never said anything about NUKES, just power plants. Of course I don't believe him, but he didn't say anything about nukes.
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Actually death, I was talking about that if Iran shot ONE nuke to Israel, it would get HUNDRED nukes in return
Who would shoot only one nuke?
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JollyJoker
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posted October 08, 2009 07:27 AM |
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Just a minute.
Well, I didn't see Doomforge asking for opinions on Iran or Da Bomb either, so the next thread looks to be going straight to the wastes as well.
In fact all those threads seem to follow the same pattern. There are a couple of issues here that will elicit extreme opinions of the kind
X is 100% good or
Y is 100% bad.
As soon as this occurs it has to be proven that this statement is wrong in principle, and once that happens the thread strays off-topic to the issue that of course isn't uncontestedly proving for everyone what it is supposed to prove...
Ok, go on.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 08, 2009 08:29 AM |
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I am going to clean this thread very soon, if you want to save your nuke debate, you had best do it NOW. Start a new thread, copy/paste the debate on nukes. If the nuke thing comes up in this thread after this post right here, whoever brings it up in this thread will get a -qp (except other mods cause I can't -qp them, but they have more class then to do something like that...). No questions asked, no second warning.
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Message received.
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