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| Thread: To Elodin, on trade |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted October 16, 2009 08:17 PM |
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To Elodin, on trade
You're against free trade because it takes jobs from American workers. Suppose we take this one step further. Let's ban all trade between states. Surely it will stop the Texans from taking the Oklahomans' jobs, right? It'll create jobs in Oklahoma because it won't have to compete with Texas. Let's take it another step further - let's ban trade altogether. Then no one will ever have to worry about losing their job to a cheaper competitor. Right? It seems rather arbitrary to put barriers on trade at national borders. Why not state, or county, or property borders?
Absolutely wrong. Specialisation is a major driver of economic growth. Because cheaper workers produce cheaper goods, it produces economic growth in all areas, because those who buy these goods have more money to spend elsewhere - and thus create more jobs.
I wish you'd agree more with the Republican party line on this issue. 
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JollyJoker
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posted October 16, 2009 08:27 PM |
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Mvass, are wrong.
Cheaper workers do NOT produce cheaper goods - they MAY do so, but don't do it automatically, because the aim isn't to produce cheaper, but to make the biggest profits.
Second, cheaper works earn less money and will therefore buy less, since the BASIC goods - housing and food - are not getting cheaper. And since workers are not in the well-paid department anyway, cheaper workers mean LESS jobs, because they buy less consumer goods. That's why minimum wages are good - they bring the money to those who are keen on spending it.
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mvassilev
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posted October 16, 2009 09:00 PM |
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I want Elodin's response, not the tired socialist one.
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Cheaper workers do NOT produce cheaper goods - they MAY do so, but don't do it automatically, because the aim isn't to produce cheaper, but to make the biggest profits.
Well, of course they don't do it automatically, but with competition, they do. That was implied.
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the BASIC goods - housing and food - are not getting cheaper
Untrue. Housing and food are indeed getting cheaper.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 16, 2009 09:54 PM |
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Quote:
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the BASIC goods - housing and food - are not getting cheaper
Untrue. Housing and food are indeed getting cheaper.
Yeah, I see you paying the rent, noting that you pay less, and I see you running through the supermarket, buying things. THose things are becoming just as cheaper as gasoline.
Of course, BUYING housing... but tell that the workers that justgot cheaper.
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Elodin
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posted October 16, 2009 10:17 PM |
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I am opposed to free trade between countries with unequal standards of living.
For example, many workers in Mexico make so little that they have to live in filth in cardboard shacks outside the factory. The American worker can't compete with such "cheap labor" that is actually slavery. In addition, there are no safety standards in Mexico so the company there furthur saves money in that regards, and no environmental standards to meet there either.
The American worker (or any worker) should not have to live in filth in a cardboard shack. The American worker can't compete with slave labor without becoming a slave.
I am opposed to the American workers being enslaved and living in cardboard shacks in squalor.
Sure it is great for the international companies that can move their factories across the borders and overseas to use slave labor but it is immoral and is bad for the American worker.
There are very few manufacturing jobs left in America because of companies taking advantage of the slave labor to be had across the border/overseas.
Goods coming into the US from slave labor nations should have a high tarrif slapped on them to equalize the prices so that American workers can at least compete within America.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 16, 2009 10:23 PM |
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Who'd have thought I'd agree with Elodin...
Anyways, of course you have to consider US companies producing their stuff cheaply in some 3rd world land and then re-importing it - of course that's happening in Europe as well.
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mvassilev
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posted October 16, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Elodin:
First, of course the Mexicans' standard of living is low - no one's arguing that. But it's much, much better than it would be otherwise. At least they have more job opportunities - it may not look like much to an American, but to third world residents, usually the choice between subsistence farming vs. factory manufacturing is a very clear one in favour of the latter.
Also, the thing is, there are jobs besides those in manufacturing, and the US should be moving towards them. We can offshore most of our basic manufacturing to China/wherever, and focus more on high tech stuff and creativity. We should be selling them technology while they sell us the stuff they make with it. (At least for now.)
Also, you didn't reply to my states analogy. Mississippi has a lower standard of living than Connecticut - does that mean Connecticut should have tariffs on Mississippian products?
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Elodin
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posted October 16, 2009 10:49 PM |
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Also, the thing is, there are jobs besides those in manufacturing, and the US should be moving towards them. We can offshore most of our basic manufacturing to China/wherever, and focus more on high tech stuff and creativity. We should be selling them technology while they sell us the stuff they make with it. (At least for now.)
Oh, yes, that was the promise of the globalists years ago, but it has not happened. And now the "service sector" jobs are being outsourced to India too. The city I live in once had a large call center that provided technical support for Dell computers. That was shut down and moved to India.
You can't really make a living flipping burgers at McDonalds. And you can't have a whole nation that is nothing but lawyers and doctors.
The fact is the standard of living of the American worker has been steadily declining for a number of years. Once only one income was needed for a family. Now it takes both parents working in most cases.
Everyone can't be a lawyer and doctor. Manufacturing jobs are needed. Manufacturing takes raw materials and transforms them into goods worth more. It produces wealth. Service jobs don't produce wealth.
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Also, you didn't reply to my states analogy. Mississippi has a lower standard of living than Connecticut - does that mean Connecticut should have tariffs on Mississippian products?
No, it is unconstitutional for one state to refuse to trade with another or to put tarrifs on goods from another state.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 16, 2009 10:58 PM |
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tigris
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posted October 16, 2009 11:10 PM |
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Goods coming into the US from slave labor nations should have a high tarrif slapped on them to equalize the prices so that American workers can at least compete within America.
To be honest, I feel insulted by this statement as in fact i feel insulted by the whole of your hypothesis.
I dont live in America, but I am perhaps one of those people who migrated from one of those slave labor nations to the western world in search of a better life.
With the global recession phenomena, unemployment rates have risen everywhere and everywhere around the globe, people have to go the extra mile in order to find a job.
I have heard so many times this argument that people from these so called "3rd world countries"come to "the civilised world " and TAKE the jobs of the decent hard working natives.
What a load of bullsnow!
There are so many people who prefer living on social support with doing **** all, queuing in front of the job center instead of getting a job simply because it's "under their standards". Then they go to the pub and get smashed blaming it on the foreigners.
I am quite sure in every country member of a free trade pact, weekly work hours are strictly enforced by laws ( i.e. no more than 45 hours of work a week,minimum wage).So your whole slavery theory is very much obtuse and you speak without knowing the facts.
The problem is, people in US and other so called "developed countries" are plain LAZY.
Do you have any idea how many of the mexicans or eastern europeans or asians sweeping your street used to be teachers, engineers, doctors or lawyers in their countries?
Yet there they are, mopping your street and doing the lowest of the low payed jobs in your country simply because it pays better.
They decided to give up their pride and grasp a chance that has been given to them..if i remember correctly that was one of US's trademarks wasn't it?
Many of the manufacture workers you mentioned in your post, cant be bothered to embark on a career change and just settle with going from pub to the job center and back..and all they do is whine its not fair.
And i ask you why?
Oh and by the way..you say someone should put taxes on goods coming from "slave labor countries"...let me just ask you..who do you think gets rich? Is it the guy working there? ( the one you say lives in the cardboard house)Is he getting a villa instead?
The money goes back to US increasing your standard of living even more.
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mvassilev
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posted October 16, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Elodin:
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Oh, yes, that was the promise of the globalists years ago, but it has not happened.
Because we haven't made the necessary adjustments to the education system. If we would, then we'd have higher growth, instead of the lower growth that trade barriers would create.
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And you can't have a whole nation that is nothing but lawyers and doctors.
Not just lawyers and doctors, of course. Engineers, scientists, architects, etc. High-skilled jobs.
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No, it is unconstitutional for one state to refuse to trade with another or to put tarrifs on goods from another state.
The Constitution can be changed, but I don't see you advocating such a change even though it'd be consistent with your stance on trade.
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TheDeath
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posted October 17, 2009 12:28 AM |
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Goods coming into the US from slave labor nations should have a high tarrif slapped on them to equalize the prices so that American workers can at least compete within America.
Tariff? You do know that's going to go to the GOVERNMENT right?
very capitalistic idea... at least mvass is not a hypocrite, even if I disagree with him.
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del_diablo
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posted October 17, 2009 09:07 PM |
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Right.
Now exactly what are you "Right..............." on? Elodins post? But up a better argument.
Elodin: "Unconstitutional" itselfs tends to be a really poor argument. Stay away from using it, since it will lead to bad debates(since its to vague for an argument).
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JollyJoker
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posted October 17, 2009 09:32 PM |
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In this case his point is right.
The problem isn't the differences in payments within a certain aconomic entity whether it's the US or the EU.
Whether you earn 12 or 12.50 the hour doesn't matter much, but when they earn 0.50 and corps don't have to pay for social security of the workers it backfires.
So in principle it would be correct to stop goods produced under conditions considered unworthy (you know what I mean) entering the country - it's been produced under "illegal" conditions.
It doesnÄt do to forbid let's say children to work and then import goods made by children. Makes no sense.
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mvassilev
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posted October 17, 2009 10:28 PM |
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It doesnÄt do to forbid let's say children to work and then import goods made by children. Makes no sense.
Actually, it does. The difference between developed and developing countries is that in developed countries, children should be doing better things than working - and it's not so vital for them to work anyway. In third-world countries, on the other hand, if they don't have factory work, then they might just turn to crime or prostitution, or become child soldiers. Hardly the desired alternative.
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Elodin
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posted October 17, 2009 10:35 PM |
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Quote:
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Goods coming into the US from slave labor nations should have a high tarrif slapped on them to equalize the prices so that American workers can at least compete within America.
To be honest, I feel insulted by this statement as in fact i feel insulted by the whole of your hypothesis.
I find it strange that you are offended by me contending that workers should make enough that that don't have to live outside a factory in a cardboard shack.
Since I don't want US workers to have to do that too, I am opposed to "free trade" with slave labor nations. Tariffs must be imposed on goods coming from such nations in order to protect the American worker.
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Oh and by the way..you say someone should put taxes on goods coming from "slave labor countries"...let me just ask you..who do you think gets rich? Is it the guy working there? ( the one you say lives in the cardboard house)Is he getting a villa instead?
The money goes back to US increasing your standard of living even more.
Sorry, but that is quite simply untrue. If a business is only expanding overseas in slave labor markets it is not hiring US workers or producing wealth in the US. The "fat cat" CEOs and shareholders are prospering but the standard of living of the Amerian worker is continuing to decline because of such practices.
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Because we haven't made the necessary adjustments to the education system. If we would, then we'd have higher growth, instead of the lower growth that trade barriers would create.
A service economy does not produce wealth. Period. Manufacturing produces wealth. It transforms raw materials into more valuable goods.
There cannot be a nation with only "high skilled" jobs and no manufacturing unless they enslave other countries to produce the goods.
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The Constitution can be changed, but I don't see you advocating such a change even though it'd be consistent with your stance on trade.
Of course I don't advocate such folly. A nation has to be united. You can' go errecting barriers internal to a nation and think that it will stand.
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Tariff? You do know that's going to go to the GOVERNMENT right?
very capitalistic idea... at least mvass is not a hypocrite, even if I disagree with him.
Yes, the tariffs go to the government but they raise the price of the goods that were produced by workers working for 5cents per hour because the American worker can't compete with that unless they become slaves too.
No, I am not a hypocrite. I am for free trade between countries with roughly the same standard of living. Otherwise free trade does not work.
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Elodin: "Unconstitutional" itselfs tends to be a really poor argument. Stay away from using it, since it will lead to bad debates(since its to vague for an argument).
It would be a poor argument if the Constitution did not actually address the issue, but it does. Read the Constitution.
Enclyclopedia Britinica
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in U.S. constitutional law, any commercial transactions or traffic that cross state boundaries or that involve more than one state. The traditional concept that the free flow of commerce between states should not be impeded has been used to effect a wide range of regulations, both federal and state.
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mvassilev
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posted October 17, 2009 10:50 PM |
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A service economy does not produce wealth.
Wrong. A service economy produces wealth just the same as a manufacturing economy does. As long as people are doing what is valued by others, wealth is being produced. Period.
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A nation has to be united.
I could just as easily say that the world has to be united.
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del_diablo
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posted October 17, 2009 11:03 PM |
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As long as people are doing what is valued by others, wealth is being produced. Period.
I disagree. You can't produce riches, you can only dig up more.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 17, 2009 11:16 PM |
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Quote:
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It doesnÄt do to forbid let's say children to work and then import goods made by children. Makes no sense.
Actually, it does. The difference between developed and developing countries is that in developed countries, children should be doing better things than working - and it's not so vital for them to work anyway. In third-world countries, on the other hand, if they don't have factory work, then they might just turn to crime or prostitution, or become child soldiers. Hardly the desired alternative.
That's the cynism in capitalism I abhor. If it's legal THERE, hey, we are just buying it. And certainly all those wreteches are better off breaking their backs in some factory, manufacturing the cheap goods for us instead of lurking behind some corner and trying to rob or prostitute us out of our money when we come there as tourists.
Oh, and I can really see it how we create wealth by back-scratching us, shine each other's shoes and clean each other's apartment.
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mvassilev
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posted October 17, 2009 11:18 PM |
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del_diablo:
Wrong again. But Alfred Marshall can express it better than I can.
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Man cannot create material things. In the mental and moral world indeed he may produce new ideas; but when he is said to produce material things, he really only produces utilities; or in other words, his efforts and sacrifices result in changing the form or arrangement of matter to adapt it better for the satisfaction of wants. All that he can do in the physical world is either to readjust matter so as to make it more useful, as when he makes a log of wood into a table; or to put it in the way of being made more useful by nature, as when he puts seed where the forces of nature will make it burst out into life.
It is sometimes said that traders do not produce: that while the cabinet-maker produces furniture, the furniture-dealer merely sells what is already produced. But there is no scientific foundation for this distinction. They both produce utilities, and neither of them can do more: the furniture-dealer moves and rearranges matter so as to make it more serviceable than it was before, and the carpenter does nothing more. The sailor or the railway-man who carries coal above ground produces it, just as much as the miner who carries it underground; the dealer in fish helps to move on fish from where it is of comparatively little use to where it is of greater use, and the fisherman does no more.
Principles of Economics.
JJ:
So it's better if kids are prostitutes or child soldiers than if they do honest, productive work. Okay.
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