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| Thread: To Elodin, on trade |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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del_diablo
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posted October 17, 2009 11:31 PM |
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del_diablo:
Wrong again. But Alfred Marshall can express it better than I can.
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Man cannot create material things. In the mental and moral world indeed he may produce new ideas; but when he is said to produce material things, he really only produces utilities; or in other words, his efforts and sacrifices result in changing the form or arrangement of matter to adapt it better for the satisfaction of wants. All that he can do in the physical world is either to readjust matter so as to make it more useful, as when he makes a log of wood into a table; or to put it in the way of being made more useful by nature, as when he puts seed where the forces of nature will make it burst out into life.
It is sometimes said that traders do not produce: that while the cabinet-maker produces furniture, the furniture-dealer merely sells what is already produced. But there is no scientific foundation for this distinction. They both produce utilities, and neither of them can do more: the furniture-dealer moves and rearranges matter so as to make it more serviceable than it was before, and the carpenter does nothing more. The sailor or the railway-man who carries coal above ground produces it, just as much as the miner who carries it underground; the dealer in fish helps to move on fish from where it is of comparatively little use to where it is of greater use, and the fisherman does no more.
Principles of Economics.
We are misunderstanding each other, big time.
I said "you can't produce riches out of thin air, you can only dig up more". This planet supports a set amount of resources either way(meat, plants, corn, etc), and there is a set amount of materials here(gold, iron, etc). The economy itself is nothing but one big circulation of money, the amount itself(total money) can never grow unless we get more materials from somewhere.
You are talking about trade, which is not related to my talk.
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mvassilev
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posted October 18, 2009 12:09 AM |
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We can become more efficient in the way we use resources, and that's basically the same as creating new resources.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 18, 2009 10:19 AM |
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JJ:
So it's better if kids are prostitutes or child soldiers than if they do honest, productive work. Okay.
They do "honest" productive work, but get no honest payment for it - in fact they are ROBBED and MISTREATED, if they work for some pennies under hazardous conditions - so if they HAVE to prostitute themselves under hazardous conditions anyway they'll do it for the best payment.
So, yes, it IS better. It might be an eye-opener for some.
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Doomforge
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posted October 18, 2009 12:38 PM |
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Anti-immigration policy by US is downright ridiculous, a country that was founded 200 years ago by immigrants should really shut up about the "dangers immigration brings", seriously.
There is a point in "immigrants disrupt the balance" in jobs. Of course, if an immigrant comes and agrees to work for 1/5 of what an American employee wants, it disrupts the balance. But on the other hand, what's the alternative? Back to caste system, where you are privileged for getting born in US family but snowed up when you get born 100 km to the south in Mexico? Why is this any different from oppressing serfs because they were born serfs, not allowing them to get education and such?
It's pretty obvious people are against this. We don't want luck factor to rule our lives to a point where you are snowed up immediately after being born because you were born here and not there. Open - to some extent - borders make it more fair, you can still get what you need to be a productive person elsewhere and leave your pisspoor country to live a life you deserve in a rich one. By shutting down that opportunity, you shut down the only way for some people to live a normal life, cause they can't leave and are stuck in their sad excuse of a country forever. Even if they are highly skilled, educated and would make a great citizen everywhere else.
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TheDeath
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posted October 18, 2009 06:52 PM |
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Yes, the tariffs go to the government but they raise the price of the goods that were produced by workers working for 5cents per hour because the American worker can't compete with that unless they become slaves too.
No, I am not a hypocrite. I am for free trade between countries with roughly the same standard of living. Otherwise free trade does not work.
Elodin, let me spell this out differently.
What's the government's business if an american CEO wants to employ, let's say, mexicans? Isn't it like, I dunno, the government telling which people you can employ? How's that different than the government telling you how to design your office, what computers you can use in the office, but let's get further, how about what you can do at home, and what people you can let in your home?
If you want to pay mexicans and he wants to work for you, how is it the government's business? I mean, in capitalism, obviously.
You are so incredibly biased.
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del_diablo
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posted October 18, 2009 07:27 PM |
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We can become more efficient in the way we use resources, and that's basically the same as creating new resources.
Thats using less to earn the exact same amount, it does not magically create more out of thin air. It "hauls more money" per definition, not "creates more resources". Learn the difference!
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Open - to some extent - borders make it more fair, you can still get what you need to be a productive person elsewhere and leave your pisspoor country to live a life you deserve in a rich one. By shutting down that opportunity, you shut down the only way for some people to live a normal life, cause they can't leave and are stuck in their sad excuse of a country forever. Even if they are highly skilled, educated and would make a great citizen everywhere else.
And what stops them from staring a revolution? Starting a revolution is really hard work, but it requires competent people.
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If you want to pay mexicans and he wants to work for you, how is it the government's business? I mean, in capitalism, obviously.
You are so incredibly biased.
Working "pure" capitalism? That can't exist, it will fall apart the second any company gets enough power to expand. A free marked requires some regulations to stop it from collapsing on its own chances of abuse.
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TheDeath
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posted October 18, 2009 07:56 PM |
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Thats using less to earn the exact same amount, it does not magically create more out of thin air. It "hauls more money" per definition, not "creates more resources". Learn the difference!
Well a "product" is an abstract concept. I mean "creation" of it. It can be a service, and it actually is a service. Manufacturing itself is the service.
A CD and DVD use roughly the same materials (not exactly but let's pretend that they do, for simplicity -- ignoring "protection materials" and all that), but a DVD stores more data. Likewise two processors usually share the materials, but one may be a low-end while the other high-end.
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Working "pure" capitalism? That can't exist, it will fall apart the second any company gets enough power to expand. A free marked requires some regulations to stop it from collapsing on its own chances of abuse.
Well Elodin seems very "anti-government" so he must be anti-economic-regulations as well. But he is not, in this case.
So he should make up his mind, either he wants economic regulations, or he doesn't. If it's the former, then he has some socialist blood in him that he isn't even aware of.  Next time he insults "socialists" he should be aware he insults a part of him as well.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 18, 2009 09:01 PM |
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Nah.
He just says that evil capitalist corps who don't care about workers'
rights and stuff and can produce stuff in 3rd world countries under conditions that would be ptohibited in the states, are imported and sold so cheap that corps producing within countries like the US who pay FAIR wages can't compete.
Now,whether it's American corps or not, he wants stuff tariffed that can be produced cheaply ONLY because of inhuman, early-capitalist conditions in the producer countries.
See it this way: if,for example, the Japanese car producers wouldbe massively subsidized by their own government to be able to sell their cars quite cheaply in the US, you'd say that's not freetrade.
If the government of a 3rd world country allows a corp production in disregard of the interests of the workers and all progress that was made in that regard, that's a form of protectionism as well.
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mvassilev
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posted October 18, 2009 10:06 PM |
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JJ:
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They do "honest" productive work, but get no honest payment for it - in fact they are ROBBED and MISTREATED, if they work for some pennies under hazardous conditions - so if they HAVE to prostitute themselves under hazardous conditions anyway they'll do it for the best payment.
But they clearly get paid better in the factories than as prostitutes.
Doomforge:
Actually, studies have shown that immigrants don't really drive down the wages of natives.
del_diablo:
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Thats using less to earn the exact same amount, it does not magically create more out of thin air.
The effect is the same.
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Doomforge
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posted October 18, 2009 10:41 PM |
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hey mvass, didn't you know that a prostitute is among the best paid "jobs" there is?  Ok maybe such a pitiful kid-prostitute won't get much since he will be abused a lot without a pimp (and with one, he'll just lose 90% of his earning), but still, he won't get much in a factory either. Not that I support this, but harsh truth is still the truth.
So the immigrants don't lower the payment for natives? good to hear. One anti-immigration argument less. 
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mvassilev
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posted October 18, 2009 10:47 PM |
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If being a prostitute is better than working in a factory, then they'd be doing that, don't you think?
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blizzardboy
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posted October 18, 2009 11:06 PM |
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So the immigrants don't lower the payment for natives? good to hear. One anti-immigration argument less.
It's always good to strike down that fictional anti-immigration policy. You can't be too careful with things that don't exist. They're quick.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 18, 2009 11:46 PM |
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If being a prostitute is better than working in a factory, then they'd be doing that, don't you think?
Did I mention how I love the capitalist cynism?
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Doomforge
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posted October 19, 2009 10:08 AM |
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It's always good to strike down that fictional anti-immigration policy. You can't be too careful with things that don't exist. They're quick.
Fictional or not, most people hate immigrants and have stupid arguments against them.
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Binabik
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posted October 19, 2009 11:24 AM |
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This thread seems to be full of some good arguments and some total crap, with not much in between.
To address the topic, (without going into detail at this time) I'm against so called free trade.
Largely because:
a) True free trade is largely a myth.
b) There is a much bigger picture than simply trade.
c) If true free trade really did exist, I think it would become a total mess so fast it would be hard to recover from.
d) Economies tend to balance over long periods of time. Suddenly mixing different economies would unbalance all of them. To merge economies that are fundamentally different, or in different stages of evolution, would be too chaotic.
To address this issue of slave labor, I think you need to differentiate between nations with a long history of poor labor practices, and nations with the potential to improve. The economically evolved western world has used child labor, or very cheap adult labor, in the past. But that's no longer the case, as a result of both natural forces, and government intervention in the form of labor laws.
People are always far too impatient when it comes to the economy. The true underlying economy is always long term. The short-term stuff that we see is really more on the surface, but without any fundamental change to the economic structure. We may look at a nation like China and see the use of near slave labor to make blue jeans. But we look at that in the short term, when we need to take a longer-term view. If 20 or 30 years pass and there has been little improvement, the actions we take might not be the same as they are in our short-term view of it.
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Elodin
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posted October 19, 2009 04:37 PM |
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Well Elodin seems very "anti-government" so he must be anti-economic-regulations as well. But he is not, in this case.
So he should make up his mind, either he wants economic regulations, or he doesn't. If it's the former, then he has some socialist blood in him that he isn't even aware of. Next time he insults "socialists" he should be aware he insults a part of him as well.
I'm not anit-government, I am pro-government-doing-what-the-Constitition-says-for-it-to-do and abiding by the limitations the Constitution places on it.
The Constitution gives the goernment the power to place tarrifs on goods from other nations. The goernment should use that power to make the goods from slave labor nations cost just as much as goods that come from natinos that pay workers a fair wage.
It is ludicrous to say that goods that are produced using labor that costs 5 cents/hour should be on the free market with goods where workers are paid $15/hour (and who havve benefits and the company has safety/environmental regualtions to abide by.) There is no way the second company can compete with the slave labor company.
I don't have a socialist bone in my body. I believe in private citizens engaging in charity. I don't believe in a government beaurocrat sticking the tax gun under my nose and saying "give me your money so I can give it to your lazy neighbor for his vote."
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Fictional or not, most people hate immigrants and have stupid arguments against them.
Show me statistics from a study by a reputable organization please. I don't believe your statement.
A lot of people are opposed to ILLEGAL immigration. ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals and should be deported the first time they are caught. The second time imprison them.
And I personally don't know anyone who hates legal or illegal immigrants.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 19, 2009 04:43 PM |
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now... this might be weird.
I'm friends with a philosophy/business student, and he came up with an interesting theory...
me: ok, so, what's your theory.
him (who I shall call jim): Well, my theory is that the execution of Jesus was a parable and, indeed, a prophetic parable to the ways of systems of commerce.
(I should point out that we were not drunk/doped/high/powdered/taking heroin)
me: Ok.
Jim: well, Jesus, at his last supper, was like "Eat this bread, it is my body," and "Drink this wine, it is my blood," sharing around his earthly gifts becoming a metafor for socialism/ communism. And what happened to him.
me: nailed to a cross.
Jim: by romans, thus you can infer that socialism can only work if everyone agrees to it, and that there be no outside power in order to invade and straighten it out.
me: Ok.
(we were not drunk/doped/high/powdered/taking heroin)
Jim: Judas, on the other hand, betrayed Jesus for 32 peices of silver, an allergory to capitalism. and what happened to him. he killed himself, and thus, you could infer, that capitalism is self-destructive and will drive itself into oblivion.
me: fairly interesting.
jim: that's not the clever bit. Peter, who rejected christ but found him again, conveniently, became the martyr of the catholic church. and that is the clever bit, as he didn't believe totally, unlike the other disciples, but became the most powerful. and he is a reference to Stalin. because Stalin wasn't the most loyal to the cause, but he became the most powerful out of all the original party members.
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Elodin
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posted October 19, 2009 04:59 PM |
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Somebody always brings religion into threads eh? Well, your freind is clueless. Jesus is a real person (God existing as a man), not a parable and the last supper has nothing to do with socialism.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Pro 10:4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
Pro 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Now perhaps we could keep this discussion on topic.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 19, 2009 05:10 PM |
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Somebody always brings religion into threads eh? Well, your freind is clueless. Jesus is a real person (God existing as a man), not a parable and the last supper has nothing to do with socialism.
get stuffed!
So what if he was a real person, as a historian, philosophers and religious authorities, we can interpret what he means and what his message was in a comtemporary setting.
surely, Jesus had no property and lived as a wander, what more could he give than his flesh and blood, symbolised as the bread and wine, and when a person in authority gives something to his followers, in this case, the disciples, that is a socialist act.
I note that you do not deny the Judas comment about capitalism being self destructive!
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Now perhaps we could keep this discussion on topic.
the discussion is trade, and I was discussing commerce and how people can interpret it from literature. it's just as valid as taking the christian subtext from C.S Lewis works.
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Elodin
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posted October 19, 2009 08:40 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:42, 19 Oct 2009.
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get stuffed!
http://www.yourdictionary.com/idioms/get-stuffed
I have no desire to trade insults or exchange vulgar rhetoric.
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So what if he was a real person, as a historian, philosophers and religious authorities, we can interpret what he means and what his message was in a comtemporary setting.
surely, Jesus had no property and lived as a wander, what more could he give than his flesh and blood, symbolised as the bread and wine, and when a person in authority gives something to his followers, in this case, the disciples, that is a socialist act.
I note that you do not deny the Judas comment about capitalism being self destructive!
1) Jesus told us what communiion means. We don't have to "guess" or "interpret" and it has nothing to do with socialism.
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Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Oh, you also seem to be ignorant of the fact that charity was around long before socialism.
And in socialism the government steals from one to give to another. Charity is a person willingly giving to another. There was no "taxman" forcing Jesus to die for our sins. His sacrifice was voluntary, an act of charity.
On the other hand, the Bible specifically says Judas was a thief so in a way you could say he was a socialist I guess since he was stealing from Jesus and the other disciples to give to himself.
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Joh 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
Jesus was a traveling preacher, an evangelist. However, it is tradition that he was a carpenter before he began his ministry. Also, his ministry was supported by various people. He was not penniless and begging for bread.
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the discussion is trade, and I was discussing commerce and how people can interpret it from literature. it's just as valid as taking the christian subtext from C.S Lewis works.
If you say so. It is interesting that the anti-religion/anti-Christian folk are almost always the ones to introduce religion into discussions. Then someone usually points the finger at a religious person and say they are always preaching.
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