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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 06, 2009 12:29 AM |
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Death, you fail to see, that you characterize my arguments as bashing. And instead of countering arguments somehow, you just bash me. So, ok. You spoke last. Are you satisfied ? Do you believe that the Windows users-group that you so-much want to protect from crazy guys like me does not restart their computer for about 1 year due to installation ? Have you asked them how frequently they actually format their hard drives ? Have you asked them if they realize how much performance degrade they have by 3 anti-virus 2 anti-malware and an extra firewall they install ?
So, yes. I guess I am the one who has to get real ...
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The empty set
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 06, 2009 12:33 AM |
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So, Corribus, what do you want to run in that machine ? What kind of applications ?
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The empty set
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted November 06, 2009 12:36 AM |
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Talking about sandboxes, could you recommend some? I'd prefer a light version that doesn't use up to much performance.
Sandboxie, very light and good. No 64-bit version though.
Ain't putting the PC on Deep Freeze better?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 06, 2009 12:42 AM |
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Death, you fail to see, that you characterize my arguments as bashing. And instead of countering arguments somehow, you just bash me. So, ok. You spoke last. Are you satisfied ? Do you believe that the Windows users-group that you so-much want to protect from crazy guys like me does not restart their computer for about 1 year due to installation ? Have you asked them how frequently they actually format their hard drives ? Have you asked them if they realize how much performance degrade they have by 3 anti-virus 2 anti-malware and an extra firewall they install ?
So, yes. I guess I am the one who has to get real ...
Let's see why you speak "nonsense":
1) I don't have anti-virus and never had to "cleanup" my computer, never lost an account (keylogging), never did my computer act slow or any other symptoms and never lost a file unknowingly. So I conclude that I don't have viruses... of course I can't prove the undetectable, if that's what you imply, but neither can you 
2) I never formatted my partitions except when installing a new Windows (which happened only on new harddrives)
3) I never restarted because of an install
4) I admit, I never kept the computer online more than 2 days. And yes, I'm a computer freak -- I imagine a more normal person would use it even less... 
5) I'm NOT a Windows fanboy -- I'm not saying it's more "stable" than Linux, I'm only bashing myths that say it's WORSE (in stability) than Linux. And the multi-user was an example where I said Linux sucks because it doesn't offer an alternative to not have multiple users (or does it?). And even if so, does it become very weak, security-wise?
and finally...
...thanks for at least not being a Mac lover & preacher, those can get extremely zealous on their "mission"
So I fail to see your point. And yes it is bashing to say that you need a restart when I clearly have a different experience with the very thing you're talking about: how would it feel to you if I said "Linux crashes 3 times a day, get Windows!"? You would think I'm speaking nonsense right?
That's exactly what you are saying, to me. Now hopefully you can see my position on the matter.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 06, 2009 12:44 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:46, 06 Nov 2009.
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@Dimis
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The first question is, does your processor support 64 bit ?
Intel Core II T7200 @ 2.00 GHz. I believe that supports 64 bit, no?
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The second question is, are you sure all your devices have drivers written in 64bit ? Are all the programs that you want to use supported under 64bit ? As you can understand, in transitional periods there are always "compatibility" problems.
Not at all sure. How do I find out? 
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Given the experience of others here, move on to W7. It seems that there is nothing worse than Vista. So, you can not go wrong.
Well that's what I'm gathering.
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So, Corribus, what do you want to run in that machine ? What kind of applications ?
For personal use, nothing fancy, with the exception of Origin 7, Maple and maybe ChemDraw (if you're familiar with them). Obviously some games and things as well.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 06, 2009 12:51 AM |
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Edited by dimis at 00:51, 06 Nov 2009.
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I can not resist. If you read the sentences (1) to (5) above (your sentences), you will see that you start all of them with the word I. And clearly I am not referring to you as a "standard" windows user, because you are not Death. I am referring to all those guys who feel lost and complain almost every day, or they sort of "fix" stuff out of coincidence many times. I mean seriously, how many superstitious guys do you know that use MS ? Especially in the past, when we were using modems to dial-up and connect to the internet, you could hear some of them saying "hey, don't touch that window / don't close that app!" and you are like "huh?" and they are (kind of irritated by your "ignorance") replying that your actions might interfere with dialing .... I mean, go figure. This is the target group and the majority of people who use windows.
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The empty set
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 06, 2009 12:52 AM |
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From the little people are willing to commit to in a few tech forums, Windows 7 is light years better then Vista. However, I've heard that tune before and wait till they fully commit to saying it
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Message received.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 06, 2009 12:54 AM |
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@dimis: my apologize for misunderstanding, I did address that point before (not to you). I said that those people are very unlikely to switch to Linux, and even if they did, they would probably get viruses due to not being careful anyway, just as in Windows.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted November 06, 2009 01:19 AM |
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Intel Core II T7200 @ 2.00 GHz. I believe that supports 64 bit, no?
This seems to be the case. Yes.
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Not at all sure. How do I find out?
Start googling each device that you want to work with when you upgrade or visit the homepage of each vendor. Most likely in 2009 all major stuff will be supported, but you never know ... I believe there are 3 major things that you have to check; graphics card, sound card, and printer.
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For personal use, nothing fancy, with the exception of Origin 7, Maple and maybe ChemDraw (if you're familiar with them). Obviously some games and things as well.
Maple exists for all platforms, and you can probably get rid of Origin with something else, but ChemDraw ? I have no clue, and clearly if these are the main things that you are doing, then why would you even bother with some non-MS OS ? Of course you have to get rid of Vista. (That part does not change whether W7 is better or worse than Vista.)
What about the other "obvious" stuff ?
Listening to music, watching videos and dvds ... What sort of app do you use to type documents ? Anything else (apart from a browser and probably an email-client) ?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 01:30 AM |
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The one way in which Win7 is worse than Vista is that it doesn't have the classic Start menu - it has the new stupid one. In other ways, it's better.
By the way, here's a question. Windows 7 has Windows XP built in (through Virtual PC). So would it be possible to run 16-bit Windows programmes that way? (If so, that's a good reason to upgrade.)
And my experience with Windows has been similar to Death's.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 07:13 AM |
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People like Win XP because AFTER SP2 it's very stable - small wonder since it's been running a couple of yers. And because Vista is so much worse. However, XP had and has major drawbacks.
When it came, like Vista. it upped technical prerequsites MASSIVELY - and don't forget, we're talking about an operation system.
In my experience there were and are TWO major XP problems.
1) Security
I've no idea how many security leaks have been fixed (and how many have NOT been fixed), but you might think that XP was developed in cooperation with Norton and others - to boost their sales.
2) Speed and boot time
XP has the habit to get slower over time. I think that's because registry cluttering. If you want to overcome that you basically have to dust XP and your machine regularly. Once a year you should deinstall programs not needed and make a registry cleanup (with a utility) and a harddisk defrag. If that doesn't work and the system it's still slow, you have to bite the bullet: Reinstall XP (and of course all programs.
Of course, if you KNOW that, you can do something about it, which amounts to the fact that XP is NOW, especially since the hardware can support that OS now easily, a pretty workable OS.
Sadly Vista is not. Apart from all those things already mentioned Vista - while booting pretty fast - has a WLAN problem. I Intensely dislike it and I won't hesitate a second to switch to 7 the minute I get the upgrade.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 06, 2009 09:14 AM |
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I said that those people are very unlikely to switch to Linux, and even if they did, they would probably get viruses due to not being careful anyway, just as in Windows.
Trojans != viruses
There is 1 reasons why this won't happen:
*Package repository(commonly reffered to as "repos)
Why download and install a application from an unsafe source on the interwebs when you can get it down without hassle from Add/Remove applications?
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I mean for goodness' sake all I see pro-Linux people speaking nonsense about Windows hoping (probably) to make other people realize how great Linux is.
You forget 1 major thing here: All Linux users ran or runs Windows in some way, we KNOW what is wrong with it. Windows users have not tried Linux, so you can't argument the other way.
BSOD? Instability? Constant reinstalls? I have been there, and the thing that annoyed me about it was that none of it was caused by the hardware AND it was not me either that caused it.
At the moment I use Windows Vista to play CoD 5: WaW, and thats it. I'm glad I don't need the crap fore more than that.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 06, 2009 05:09 PM |
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Why download and install a application from an unsafe source on the interwebs when you can get it down without hassle from Add/Remove applications?
Because those apps are limited, as are all Linux apps. No, if you want to use real apps, use Wine and use Windows apps, then we'll talk.
Cause you know, Windows runs Windows-apps, so it's only fair to compare same apps for both.
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You forget 1 major thing here: All Linux users ran or runs Windows in some way, we KNOW what is wrong with it.
No you don't. Mvass has tried Linux, but of course "he didn't try it well enough". Sorry but I'd say the same with you about Windows, it's obvious you didn't even bother to customize it with nLite and make it thin, less than 1GB without drivers (drivers are not Windows' fault...).
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BSOD? Instability? Constant reinstalls? I have been there, and the thing that annoyed me about it was that none of it was caused by the hardware AND it was not me either that caused it.
I think it was but you don't realize it. I can prove to you how I can crash a Linux machine too.
Thing is I don't even install my programs anymore as I use a program (jauntePE) that redirects registry to a file near the app, and make it all portable.
Somehow I doubt that Linux' obsessive "centralized" approach of storing settings can run software from USB sticks without leaving a trace on the machine. Although it would be nice, I absolutely hate that Windows followed up on that idea and implemented "Documents and Settings" and "Registry".
Centralized settings suck.
All apps should be able to be copied & pasted ONCE from ONE folder (where they are installed) and run from the other copied place with EVERYTHING intact. Even on a new machine. That's what I call ease-of-use.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 06, 2009 05:48 PM |
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Cause you know, Windows runs Windows-apps, so it's only fair to compare same apps for both.
This is a flawed pinpointing strawman of an argument.
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All apps should be able to be copied & pasted ONCE from ONE folder (where they are installed) and run from the other copied place with EVERYTHING intact. Even on a new machine. That's what I call ease-of-use.
I can image the dependacy hell over time, thats the only catch.
The main reason this would be easier for Linux is that you lump everything into 1 folder instead of having anything somewhere else.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 06, 2009 05:51 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 17:52, 06 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
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Cause you know, Windows runs Windows-apps, so it's only fair to compare same apps for both.
This is a flawed pinpointing strawman of an argument.
Explain.
What I see otherwise is like saying "Firefox is much more secure than IE, therefore Linux is better". This IS the strawman argument. Why not use IE on Linux via Wine to see how "secure" Linux is with that argument?
The app has nothing to do with the OS.
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I can image the dependacy hell over time, thats the only catch.
No there's no catch, not if you organize it the way YOU want. Windows doesn't need hundreds of libraries doing the same thing as in Linux.
You know, I want to organize my system the way I want, not the way someone who thinks everything should be in one central place wants.
Does Linux give me that option?
(and btw, Windows sucks horribly in this department as well, that's why I had to use a third-party app to redirect the registry  )
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 06, 2009 06:16 PM |
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Quote:
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Cause you know, Windows runs Windows-apps, so it's only fair to compare same apps for both.
This is a flawed pinpointing strawman of an argument.
Explain.
What I see otherwise is like saying "Firefox is much more secure than IE, therefore Linux is better". This IS the strawman argument. Why not use IE on Linux via Wine to see how "secure" Linux is with that argument?
IE under Wine would face its falls. First is that the Wine AP might lack features to execute certain viruses, the next is that running killall -9 wine would stop it from doing anything at all. The next is that it can't survive a reboot as it lacks the permissions to do anything with that.
Smart users would give wine its own restricted user, which is auto invokes to its own sandbox. Or remove the path to anything outside of "~/.wine/drive_c", which it again would not be able to do anything.
But again, if we had 2 unsecure browsers the advantage Linux would have had is that the process to the browser would lack the ability to execute files.
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I can image the dependacy hell over time, thats the only catch.
No there's no catch, not if you organize it the way YOU want. Windows doesn't need hundreds of libraries doing the same thing as in Linux.
The reason its a less of a hell under Windows is because the main libs are never updated, just patched.
And that backwards computability is a priority.
Under GNU/Linux we either run a user friendly distro or a bleeding edge system, there is still ages between when applications break anyhow.
Well, the only "big" chance of breaking anything is when we are talking a upgrade of the stable core components(libc, mostly). The problem is a minor one. Besides "dependency hell" is usually a reference to systems importing packages all compiled against different versions.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 06, 2009 06:48 PM |
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Sorry but with sandboxes Windows is just as secure, like with Sandboxie. Yes I even used IE in some sites, but obviously with a sandbox, I'm not crazy to do without one.
And the fact that Linux only "updates" and never "upgrades" to a different version does indeed make it more attractive to me, I give you that. How I wish Microsoft focused on Windows XP forever updating it via service packs instead of going for "new upgrades" like Vista or 7
That's one good thing about Linux compared to Windows: there's no "Linux XP" or "Linux 7"... just Linux
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted November 07, 2009 11:04 AM |
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so, the video card RAM eats up address space as well. Which is why if you have a 512MB card you'll usually have 3.5GB free or so out of 4GB, with a 1GB card you'll have only 3GB accessible for "normal RAM" since the 1GB upper address space is used up by the video card.
Thank you for the inf, I was unaware of that. Now it's pointless to take 32-bit system for a new computer as surely it'll have more than 4GB of memory in total.
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Dragon_Slayer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
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posted November 11, 2009 12:33 AM |
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i found running 64bit vista a little unstable at times, more so than 32bit. Windows 7 on the other hand has been pretty good to me so far. My only complaint is that my once good graphics card struggles to run windows aero. Time for an upgrad i think
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 11, 2009 12:34 AM |
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Time for an upgrad i think
or time to disable Aero.
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