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| Thread: The Death of Original Thought |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2009 07:48 PM |
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Blizzard, that's not so, sorry to disappoint here.
True is of course that persons CAN produce the material for books - the story - for no cost at all. However, PUBLISHING a book costs the publisher money, there's no way round that one, and while editors will be inclined to publish something they personally find great, there has to be a realistic chance to reach break-even point, otherwise it won't work.
Additionally, even in the book business a lot is about the megasellers, because they have advertising effect for other authors. You have
Dan Brown
and Joe Kaputnik has a book in your house, titled
The Sigill
The publisher advertises Joe Kaputniks stuff now in Dan Browns book, and voila: a million persons read Joe Kaputniks name and 20000 of them may just buy iz, hoping to find another Dan Brown.
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DagothGares
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posted December 10, 2009 07:51 PM |
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I think blizzardboy wanted to say that the production and distribution costs of books ar far lower than those of movies. Also, less men need to be paid at the end of the day 
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Corribus
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posted December 10, 2009 07:52 PM |
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In books, the author is the brand name, not (for the most part) the title.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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blizzardboy
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posted December 10, 2009 07:56 PM |
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Quote:
Blizzard, that's not so, sorry to disappoint here.
True is of course that persons CAN produce the material for books - the story - for no cost at all. However, PUBLISHING a book costs the publisher money, there's no way round that one, and while editors will be inclined to publish something they personally find great, there has to be a realistic chance to reach break-even point, otherwise it won't work.
Additionally, even in the book business a lot is about the megasellers, because they have advertising effect for other authors. You have
Dan Brown
and Joe Kaputnik has a book in your house, titled
The Sigill
The publisher advertises Joe Kaputniks stuff now in Dan Browns book, and voila: a million persons read Joe Kaputniks name and 20000 of them may just buy iz, hoping to find another Dan Brown.
Did you read my post?
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TheDeath
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posted December 10, 2009 08:26 PM |
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Quote:
If you want to dig into deeper material: read books. Books are motivated by profit just like everything else in the world
You sure about that? But before going there state whether you are talking about stories or educational material?
And publishing, well, you have .pdf and printers these days
So I don't read much stories (mostly read technical/educational stuff), how's the "originality" in books I wonder?
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blizzardboy
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posted December 10, 2009 09:07 PM |
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You sure about that? But before going there state whether you are talking about stories or educational material?
What is the topic of the thread?
Quote:
And publishing, well, you have .pdf and printers these days
We've had printers for a very long time. They require ink and paper. There is .pdf, but most people aren't keen on reading entire novels on a white screen as it can be draining. Either way, the total production of a novel is a more modest investment compared to a video game or motion picture.
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So I don't read much stories (mostly read technical/educational stuff), how's the "originality" in books I wonder?
Much higher. Due to the grander nature of a motion picture, it's much more prudent to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. There isn't enough capital to create major motion pictures in as huge quantities as books. Many novels are published fully knowing that it will appeal to a smaller, select audience. It's a modest investment with modest profit.
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TheDeath
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posted December 10, 2009 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You sure about that? But before going there state whether you are talking about stories or educational material?
What is the topic of the thread?
Much educational literature needs originality to convey it as intuitive as possible.
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We've had printers for a very long time. They require ink and paper. There is .pdf, but most people aren't keen on reading entire novels on a white screen as it can be draining. Either way, the total production of a novel is a more modest investment compared to a video game or motion picture.
Yes it requires ink and paper, no one said it's gonna be free. (and you print .pdfs, that was my point). I said it's an alternative to taking it from the library, for example, or other traditional "hard-copy shipment".
Quote:
Much higher. Due to the grander nature of a motion picture, it's much more prudent to appeal to as wide as an audience as possible. Many novels are published fully knowing that it will appeal to a smaller, select audience. It's a modest investment with modest profit.
Well then there's Twilight, where the books and movies are just about the same...
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blizzardboy
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posted December 10, 2009 09:21 PM |
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Quote:
Much educational literature needs originality to convey it as intuitive as possible.
Not the topic.
Quote:
Yes it requires ink and paper, no one said it's gonna be free. (and you print .pdfs, that was my point). I said it's an alternative to taking it from the library, for example, or other traditional "hard-copy shipment".
Right.
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Well then there's Twilight, where the books and movies are just about the same...
Yeah I said that. But go into a library sometime. The shelves are not stacked solely with Twilight and other enormous hits. You have the big players, and then you have a huge amount of minor players. The minor players aren't necessarily bad, they simply don't appeal to a huge audience in the way Twilight makes millions of young women moist. A lot of it is also dependent on publicity and raw luck, but that's besides the point.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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DagothGares
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posted December 10, 2009 09:22 PM |
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Quote:
Well then there's Twilight, where the books and movies are just about the same...
Well, then there's Devices and desires or lovely bones (not a fan of lovely bones) that freshen it up a bit. Lovely bones actually sold pretty well. Anyway, it's USUALLY not so that the best-selling novels are cliched or unoriginal, they just adjust the trend. Lotr may be unoriginal, but that's because it started the trend of elves being hippies and dwarves with braided beards.
Obviously, there's commercial literature, but that is usually frowned upon by people who read semi-often.
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celfious
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posted December 10, 2009 10:43 PM |
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this brings to my mind a few things. one of these are if we had some situation where society started over with no way to "show" new generations "original" story ideas, would we change anything, or be so closed minded to new innovation?
other things come to mind related to why i think the mainstream is closed minded when any new concept is called a rip off, in example; a new movies where humans think a digital world is real...
forgive my lack of capitalization
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JollyJoker
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posted December 10, 2009 10:48 PM |
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Quote:
Did you read my post?
Yes. And it's not correct.
Blizzard, I'll ask you a question. If there IS a new original book out there - published by an average publisher, Joe Kaputnik has a written a good book; not spectacularly so, but good -, how will you know? You, the average reader, reading how many books a year? One? Three? 6? 10? 20? 50?
How?
How do you select the books you read?
What do you think, how is the ratio of books you read versus books published?
What would you say, if you go into a bookstore and you are interested in crime or sf or fantasy, and if you pick BLINDLY a title out of the shelves, how original will the book be you just pulled out?
@Corribus
No, there isn't something like a brand name with readind, because authors don't have a satisfying output. You MUST read ton of different authors, if you are reading more than just one or a few books a year. Which means, as a reader you ARE always on the lookout for - more of the same. And of course the gems.
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Corribus
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posted December 10, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Quote:
No, there isn't something like a brand name with readind, because authors don't have a satisfying output. You MUST read ton of different authors, if you are reading more than just one or a few books a year. Which means, as a reader you ARE always on the lookout for - more of the same. And of course the gems.
Yeah, you're right, JJ. Nobody buys a book just because a specific author wrote it. And undoubtedly, publishers never make an author's name more prominant on a cover than the book's title. And it's a good thing that the author's name doesn't help to sell books - because if it did, then publishers would probably have to give preference to established authors when choosing which manuscripts to actually purchase. That would make it really hard for aspiring new authors to find a publisher because new authors would in that case be a bigger risk to the publisher than established names like Stephen King or Dan Brown. Thankfully, it's not like that at all. *snort*
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2009 07:34 AM |
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*Sigh*
I thought, you didn'rt want to wrote stuff about things that are not your domain. Books and publishing is accidentally the field I work in.
Of course is "Stephen King" an author's name that is recognized. But you can't sell Stephen King cell phones - but now look at Harry Potter. Which name is better known, Harry Potter or the name of his author? And what do you think is the reason for that?
Someone who read an author and likes him will read more of him or her, and the thing is that an author can make a breakthrough with his fifth or tenth book, which will lead to people buying and reading the other books as well.
Generally, if you do HAVE a book published that sold in any satisfactory way it's WAY easier to find a publisher for the next one.
Now, the point here is originality. A good author is likely to find a publisher, eventually - the question remains, whether he or she will find a readership as well, because tastes differ. The main body of publishings isn't nowhere near "original", though. Keep in mind that not as with movies books tend to stay longer. An established author will be read by younger people as well. Publishers have a back catalogue as well.
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Let me edit this.
Book publishing business works a bit different than movies. Even though it may< surprise you it's actually not the megaselling authors the publishers earn money with. That's because once an author is established, it's the author who makes the money. It's true that the publisher gets their share, but the author isn't the brand - it's the theme. You see, it's not Dan Brown what's selling. It's books about secret conspiracies, a few facts taken and spun to a tale, and Dan Brown is just the name that stands for it. At this point, as an unknown author you'll likely be published if you happen to write about the same thing, and you wilölö be advertised for WITH the Dan Brown books and THAT is what the publishers is making money with.
Another exanple for a brand for books has been "Scandinavian crime stories", that is, crime stories from Scandinavian authors.
With books, originality is no factor. You have a storyy and a way the story is told. The better the story is told, the less the importance of the actual story. This is not true the other way round. The most original story of all times won't be read if it's butchered by the teller (this is true with movies as well, mind you).
If you pick a random fantasy book, chances are it's an average title. A well known story with average characters, following probably well-tread ways. No originality there. Publishers want to earn money, not publish original books that no one wants to read. An original book of an unknown author is difficult to advertise. If a young author comes with an original story, let's say the story of one of the first athlets becoming a millionaire, it may not intertest anyone. It may play a role of how popular the sport is - if you make it about wrestling it may be anough "dirty" stuff in it, to capture: lurid and so on. If it's about bowling, well. If it's about poker, you probably will find a publisher because there is an actual advertising angle: you can hook the book with a current trend.
It's all about SELLING something, not finding real art.
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Corribus
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posted December 11, 2009 02:19 PM |
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You've never seen a movie with "Based on the Novel by Stephen King" in the trailer, then?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2009 02:48 PM |
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So? You'll have noticed The addition "ALfred Hitchcock's Psycho" or "John Carpenter's Assault", even though the story of Psycho is based on a story by Robert Bloch, ig I remember right.
Of course everything uses everything well-known for advertisement. What's your problem?
Just because something is "based on the novel by X" it's not an automatic success, nor is it necessarily good.
That'as different with Harry Potter (success-wise, at least). Or Batman. Or Star Trek. Or Star Wars.
Just think about this one: If there is a "great" movie, everyone knows the players, most will know the director (everyone knows the brand, of course), but how many know the SCRIPT WRITER?
If a movie is based on a novel, the rights were bought and EVERY movie has a "based on the novel by..." in the trailer.
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Corribus
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posted December 11, 2009 11:34 PM |
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OK, JJ. Whatever you say.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted December 12, 2009 10:40 AM |
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Oh, please.
"Movies" is just the top of the ice berg. Don't forget TV. Movie productions are taking place all the time, and blizzard's point that a book to publish isn't so costly, is true for TV as well. Making a season for a new series or a simple TV movie isn't that expensive.
However, no one pumps money into something they don't believe in, so it must EITHER have COMMERCIAL potential (that would mean it would fit into a current trend, feature well-known players and so on) or it must have QUALITY (that is, the ratio quality to cost must be above a certain level), with quality meaning, among others, having a certain originality as well).
Lastly, there's competetion. Lots of scripts competing with each other to be published, especially in the "might-be-or-not" department, and there isn't so much room for experiments.
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Corribus
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posted December 12, 2009 04:16 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:24, 12 Dec 2009.
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In case it wasn't obvious - here's a translation of my last post for you:
Your logic makes no sense, but I'm not sufficiently interested in the topic to get into a prolonged argument with you about it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted December 12, 2009 06:41 PM |
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Well, you say that my logic makes no sense, but that's just because don't look behind what's immediately obvious.
Think about the following:
Let's say, for some reason an unknown author would be allowed to write volume 8 of Harry Potter.
And Mrs. Rowling writes a simple novel, a contemporary love story.
What do you think, what would sell better?
After thinking about this, let's go on to Stephen King. If Stephen king wrote a love story, it would certainly sell - but very likely not nearly as much as the rest of his work - except if critics would be euphorocal, there was a movie, you name it.
The question is, is really Stephen King the brand? Or has Stephen King simply become a synonym for a certain kind of entertainment? Stephen King WAS pretty original in a certain way when he started his career: Salem's Lot is a pretty original Vampire novel, Shining is outright great, Carrie was noteworthy, Misery is brillant, still is, The Stand..., not to mention the short stories which I personally adore. It's necause you expect a certain kind of entertainment when you hear Stephen King. It's a promise.
But it's different. You MIGHT call that brand CASTLE ROCK - and Mr. King does know his business well enough to create the brand CASTLE ROCK.
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baklava
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posted December 12, 2009 08:25 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:29, 12 Dec 2009.
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Today is my not-reading-posts-longer-than-two-rows day so this is how this last bit of conversation looks to me.
Quote:
JJ: Asoifweoigsmkdfgaetalgsadghmasketgmnasjlfnsdgmktkls
Corribus: Whatever you say, JJ
JJ: Oh, please. BsiIAFGIAGJisjrghidfgksmhirshjg.aiofgOASGJIighjh
Corribus: Dude I'm really not interested in the topic
JJ: ASAKFAKWFMKAegmkdsgmkrhmsxovjfhklamfgkwnjafnjng
Corribus: Seriously, man, it doesn't matter
JJ: Whfighiximsrigmle, iajngigdkosgbkesasgoegogmhmsdgnuasetgflj.
Corribus: WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME
JJ: FHGNSJGKSMfkamfwkkgnalknagKANSANKGfgnakkFHJFHWHUFGhasgrht
Corribus: <absence of post possibly caused by attempted suicide>
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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