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| Thread: Stephen Hawking -The Grand Design- |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted October 05, 2010 01:29 AM |
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In the link below Craig destroys Hawkin's poor excuse of a book. He has destroyed many an atheist in debates. Dawkins is too afraid to debate him.
Clicky
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Woodfang
Hired Hero
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posted October 05, 2010 01:52 AM |
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Ther is no such thing as gravity. The worls just sucks. **LOL** I think Douglas Adams had the whole creation/evolution argument written best when he said that, in an argument between mankind and God, it went like this:
Says Mankind to God: Prove that you exist.
God: I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.
Mankind: AHA! But theBible is a dead giveaway isn't it? It PROVES you exist, so therefore you don't! QED!
God: Oh Dear, I hadn't thought of that! (..and promptly vanishes into a puff of logic.) 
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Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat!! 
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted October 05, 2010 05:15 AM |
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Quote:
Since it is impossible that matter is eternal there was no gravity around to create the universe.
Hi Elodin, I'm new here so if I am guessing wrong about your values than kindly disregard the following comments; just don't want to argue about God, Now HoMM, that's different.
What gets me about the God argument is why some folks cannot see the spark of him within themselves? My Faith has a quite simple beginning. I'll just use myself (safest)as if it were only meant for me. The Bible says I was made in 'His image'. <imo> I don't think that it's a body-thing, it is an inside job. 'A spark of the old block'
When I review my own life thus far, I see 'Creation' of lots of things good and bad. I made real hell for others at times early on in this journey and I have created some mighty fine Heavens as well(not near enough). My map-making is a good example, some OK, some deleted. Man has made everything from Pet-Rocks to Nulear Warheads...nothing just suddenly out of thin air...is. Sorry that didn't work either...there's no air. Tonight's 'Progression of the created' = English,School to learn it, PC,Internet, HoMM and lastly in this thread, me typing this out. I just don't get the resistance about possible origins, when not a single child of the Earth was here when the big show began anyway.
Mt Father once told me' I do not belive in God' but then a little later told me, he 'believed in a supreme being' and he was normally very big on using logic. Like I've said, I just don't get the resistance.
A question off this topic; Where is the best place for my trying to figure our some strange things going on with my ME? I live with a lot of pain so, any shortcut/guidance is appreciated.
Thanks in advance, Markkur
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"Do your own research"
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted October 05, 2010 09:19 AM |
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Quote:
A question off this topic; Where is the best place for my trying to figure our some strange things going on with my ME? I live with a lot of pain so, any shortcut/guidance is appreciated.
Knowledge, insight and intelligence are the keys to understanding. Knowledge is earned, intelligence is given and insight is imprinted.
I'd start out with knowledge, since that's the easiest one. Read books on the subject. Read about religion, philosofy and physics(and of course the cross subjects, such as philosofy of physics). If you believe that man is an image of god you should also study man.
Then comes the hard part. You have to think. Not just have thoughts. You have to really think. That is what insight is. Then just hope for intelligence to come your way and the answers will come with it (it is possible to train, but it is a long and hard process).
Just don't get to much hope. People have for generations spent all of their lives on this, and most of them have come to conclusions, but not all of them.
To binabik: Knowing the origin of something will help you to understand it. It might not be necessary, and is far from required but with it you might come to new insights and realise new puposes and uses. Understanding the existance of matter might help us develop new ways to make specific materials or push the development of fusion etc.
On the matter of the eternalness of matter: We know that matter exists. We know that antimatter exists(what it is is another question). If we presume that they will negate and remove each other and that there's just as much antimatter as there is matter the universe will come to a point where no matter exists. Left in the vastness of the neverending nothingness that the universe would then be will an unfathomable ammount of energy be. Energy as we know it cannot exist without matter of some sort.
So what will happen when this unfathomable energy exists in a place where it cannot? We know from our reality that energy will then move to where it can exist, but it will be nowhere for it to go. It will, as far as our, obviously limited, knowledge can, guide us to a paradox of existance.
We also know that energy and matter are the same, so from an ammount of energy that cannot exist matter should arise so that the remaining matter can exist. We see this as radiation and it occurs in many places of the universe and in many processes.
Matter thusly is paradoxly eternal and neverending, yet limited and will perish in time only to exist once more.
This of course does not answer the question of the origins of existance. Neither will a Consciousness. It might answer the origin of matter, but not where that matter comes from. It will also just prolongen the question to where that Consciousness comes from. A wuestion about qustions about the origins of origin, so to speak.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 05, 2010 09:41 AM |
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Hawkings does not want to debate somebody like that not out of fear, but because it is pointless. They have already made up their mind, and without any kind of evidence whatsoever will declare that they have to be correct.
Did you know that generally atheist and agnostics know more about religions then the people who are part of those religions? Why? Because the moment a person becomes part of a religion they stop questioning it. Everything is 'because this book, or that deity, or this scripture says so'. No actual proof or debate IS possible.
A lot of the atheist and agnostics also were part of a religion, but something happened and they started questioning. They started looking around and asking questions. More then a few studies prove it. Of course, now the reply will be "Blah blah conspiracy.." or similar, but that is ok.
No debate is possible with somebody who won't even consider the possibility that they are wrong. *shrugs*
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted October 05, 2010 03:21 PM |
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quote]A question off this topic; Where is the best place for my trying to figure our some strange things going on with my ME? I live with a lot of pain so, any shortcut/guidance is appreciated.
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[Knowledge, insight and intelligence are the keys to understanding. Knowledge is earned, intelligence is given and insight is imprinted.
Well thanks! I should have typed that ME out. 'Map-Editor'. It's doing some bizarre stuff at times.
Make a great day
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted October 05, 2010 03:33 PM |
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Did you know that generally atheist and agnostics know more about religions then the people who are part of those religions? Why? Because the moment a person becomes part of a religion they stop questioning it.
I am a follower of the Way and I can believe that. One of the most alarming things I have witnessed within the 'Church',is how seldom people that belong to one or another will 'interview'(for lack of a better word)the Pastor/Priest that leads at where they become members. Then, they show up each week without their Bibles and wait to be 'served' So, with an approach like that, they are not likely to hear the word'lukewarm', let alone read it.
Make a great day
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Elodin
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posted October 06, 2010 01:03 AM |
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Quote:
Did you know that generally atheist and agnostics know more about religions then the people who are part of those religions? Why? Because the moment a person becomes part of a religion they stop questioning it. Everything is 'because this book, or that deity, or this scripture says so'. No actual proof or debate IS possible.
Actually, I find that most atheists are pretty ignorant about religions, and particularly ignorant about what the Bible teaches. I think this forum has proved that beyond a doubt.
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Hawkings does not want to debate somebody like that not out of fear, but because it is pointless. They have already made up their mind, and without any kind of evidence whatsoever will declare that they have to be correct.
In geneeral, I find most atheists to be the most closed minded people I've ever met. They start with the false assumption that God does not exists and pretty much refuse to consider that he does.
But I said DAWKINS would not debate him, not that Hawkins would not. Dawkin's "new atheist" anti-theist buddy Christopher Hitchens did debate Craig and Craig wiped the floor with him. Like Dawkins, all Hitchens has is hate rhetoric, which can't win debates. Hitchens is considerably more foul-mouthed and disrespectful thatn Dawkins is though.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 06, 2010 05:57 AM |
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That is where you have it wrong Elodin. You think we are ignorant because we do not believe YOUR way. Which is very close minded. Yes, I don't bother debating anymore on these issues, because it is an exercise in futility. 1) you can not prove a belief. 2) Nobody's mind is going to be changed. 3) People tend not to debate here, but do the 'holds hands to ears and scream nah nah nah I can't hear you'. Among other reasons.
Just because somebody believes differently then you does not = ignorance. Of course, those in the religions won't hear that. All they can think is..you don't think like me so you must be ignorant.
I've asked before, and every time it has been ignored or I've been given a run around. Prove that what you believe is any greater then what anybody else believes. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. I will then concede. If it is not any greater, then guess what..nothing is proven. Just a bunch of conjecture and myth.
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markkur
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posted October 06, 2010 06:43 PM |
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Quote:
Just because somebody believes differently then you does not = ignorance. Of course, those in the religions won't hear that. All they can think is..you don't think like me so you must be ignorant.
Why would you classify the above, with Religion only. Does that not apply to most any dragon gaurding any hoard? I've found it true with both sides of most any fence. <imho> Seems to be human nature at a very common level. Look at the Rep/Dem canyon
Make a great day
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Mytical
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posted October 06, 2010 11:34 PM |
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True. A lot of people have pretty much decided that they have to be right, and that is that. Not only religious people.
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Elodin
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posted October 07, 2010 01:15 AM |
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Quote:
That is where you have it wrong Elodin. You think we are ignorant because we do not believe YOUR way. Which is very close minded
No, you have made a false statement about me. Also you seem to be claiaming to be a mind reader since you are claiming to know my thoughts. Or else you are just provoking me. And I'm not the close-minded one. It is unfortunate that some people can't seem to keep personal insults out of discussions.
No, you claimed atheists had a better knowledge of religions than the people who practice the religions. That is catagoricly false and has been proven to be false on this board.
Atheists on the OSM have declared outright lies like the Bible approves of rape and other absolutely false claims. I have proven many such claims false by quoting what the Bible actually says. Most atheists from my experience have very little knowledge or understanding of the Bible and tend to post lists of verse from anti-Christian websites without knowing what the verses are saying or the context of the verses.
I have found atheists to be fairly capable in the throwing of insults but sadly lacking in the substantive content department when it comes to debating religion.
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Just because somebody believes differently then you does not = ignorance. Of course, those in the religions won't hear that. All they can think is..you don't think like me so you must be ignorant.
Yes, the followers of the religion of atheism certainly seem to think in such a manner. Atheists have thwown around words like delusion and ignorance at theits on this board for years. But when such words are applied to their religion their blood begins to boil.
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I've asked before, and every time it has been ignored or I've been given a run around. Prove that what you believe is any greater then what anybody else believes. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. I will then concede. If it is not any greater, then guess what..nothing is proven. Just a bunch of conjecture and myth.
It would be nice if you would take a course in logic. Something is not a myth just because it can't be proven.
However, the facts certainly favor theism over atheism. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe can't be eternal. Recent observatinos also confirm this. The observations of the COLE sattelite and Hubble telescope proved the universe had a beginning. That was the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. Since the universe needs a beginning, there had to be a First Cause. That cause had to be uncaused, timeless, spaceless, eternal, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable. God. In fact, that is the way the Bible describes God. Other religions than Judaism/Christianity do not describe God that way. That points to Christianity as being divinely revealed truth. Materialistic Atheism is the myth.
Atheists have no rational explaination for the beginning of the all things because a purely material world can offer no such possibility as the beginning of all things.
Atheists in the past had pinned their religion on an eternal universe. When that was proven wrong atheism became a disproven religion. Atheism is in worldwide decline.
The proof is there for those who have ears to hear.
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del_diablo
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Manifest
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posted October 07, 2010 04:04 AM |
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No, you have made a false statement about me. Also you seem to be claiaming to be a mind reader since you are claiming to know my thoughts. Or else you are just provoking me. And I'm not the close-minded one. It is unfortunate that some people can't seem to keep personal insults out of discussions.
Where, and why are you interperenting it as such?
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No, you claimed atheists had a better knowledge of religions than the people who practice the religions. That is catagoricly false and has been proven to be false on this board.
But they do!
They live in a society still mildly saturated by religion, and they see the traces of it everywhere. Why do they not belivie when everyone wants them to believe? Because they did what most of the sheeps did not: They questioned the flying spaggethi monster.
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Atheists on the OSM have declared outright lies like the Bible approves of rape and other absolutely false claims. I have proven many such claims false by quoting what the Bible actually says.
But the bible contains the old covenant, which does approve of rape.
What parts are interprented as "valid", or even are "included" are just a philosophical theistic discussion.
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Most atheists from my experience have very little knowledge or understanding of the Bible and tend to post lists of verse from anti-Christian websites without knowing what the verses are saying or the context of the verses.
I have found atheists to be fairly capable in the throwing of insults but sadly lacking in the substantive content department when it comes to debating religion.
Please look yourself in the mirror.
The cathololic disagrees with the protestant, the jew with the muslim, and each cult again with each cult.
Ergo, your argument is a unbacked strawman.
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Yes, the followers of the religion of atheism certainly seem to think in such a manner. Atheists have thwown around words like delusion and ignorance at theits on this board for years. But when such words are applied to their religion their blood begins to boil.
The difference is that they are forced to see the world for what it is, while theists live in a world saturated by disillusion of a sort.
While there might be a chance that one of the many conflicting views is true, everything else would just be viewed as insanity if we actually knew the truth of such a question lacking evidence.
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However, the facts certainly favor theism over atheism. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe can't be eternal. Recent observatinos also confirm this. The observations of the COLE sattelite and Hubble telescope proved the universe had a beginning. That was the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. Since the universe needs a beginning, there had to be a First Cause. That cause had to be uncaused, timeless, spaceless, eternal, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable. God. In fact, that is the way the Bible describes God. Other religions than Judaism/Christianity do not describe God that way. That points to Christianity as being divinely revealed truth. Materialistic Atheism is the myth.
I would suggest taking a few physic courses.
And a few philosophy classes.
[]Atheists have no rational explaination for the beginning of the all things because a purely material world can offer no such possibility as the beginning of all things.
Why would they need such a silly thing?
Religion was invented because mankinds light was so feeble and weak, while the world was large and scary. People want explenations, and by having great Zeuz in the sky, suddenly it made sense!
What a shock!
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Atheists in the past had pinned their religion on an eternal universe. When that was proven wrong atheism became a disproven religion.
As I said: Why do atheists need such a thing? All they believe, is that there are no great skyfather.
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Atheism is in worldwide decline.[]
If we ignore warzones, what other places are there with unfolding massive suffering large enough to force people to get delusional?
There are few people who get into the spiritual, and with knowledge aboud and increasing each day, along with the tale of blood and gore for the name of the pope, religion is the great scam after all.
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The proof is there for those who have ears to hear.
Also known as: Quote used in wrong context.
I like to quote Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people".
Because what he means is that: "There is a problem in a society, and instead of solving it, the people are folding to some illusionary praying and hoping everything will solve itself."
What really disgusted him was most likely that the people had been disillusioned and never attempted to solve the problem for more than millenia.
And something completely unrelated: Having a belief: A faith sure is a nice thing. But the exact moment one stops questioning it and just accepts it completely blindly, it is a really bad thing.
Religion will not cease to exist on a long sight perspective, mainly because after the blind and dumb religions are dead there will still be other forms of spirituous faith.
Jesus might survive, but the actual underlaying dogma will likely die of, and become a part of history.
Who knows, we might even call the era we leave behind after starting to explore space "the religous era".
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted October 07, 2010 10:12 AM |
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However, the facts certainly favor theism over atheism. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe can't be eternal. Recent observatinos also confirm this. The observations of the COLE sattelite and Hubble telescope proved the universe had a beginning. That was the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. Since the universe needs a beginning, there had to be a First Cause. That cause had to be uncaused, timeless, spaceless, eternal, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable. God. In fact, that is the way the Bible describes God. Other religions than Judaism/Christianity do not describe God that way. That points to Christianity as being divinely revealed truth. Materialistic Atheism is the myth.
Atheists have no rational explaination for the beginning of the all things because a purely material world can offer no such possibility as the beginning of all things.
Atheists in the past had pinned their religion on an eternal universe. When that was proven wrong atheism became a disproven religion. Atheism is in worldwide decline.
Nothing can exist forever, so the univerze must've started(somewhat true). It has to be "uncaused, timeless, spaceless, eternal, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable".
But saying that that proves the existance of god seems illogical. Saying that the universe started means something was there before the universe is just a prolongened version. 'Nothing can exist forever so something must've existed before everything.' seems like a week kind of logic.
Where does then god come from? "Personal and knowledgable" you say, but why does it have to be that? Gravity "creates" a lot of stuff(planets, stars etc) but is not conscious. Why would something pre-existant have to conscious?
You also say that atheists have no rational explanation to the existance of the universe. 'God did it!' doesn't work for me, so I'd like it if you would give a more precise description of that.
Besides. Science gives a lot of theories, even if none have been proven. No one have proven the existance of god.
Atheism as a religion is very flexible. It is not a religion, it is many. Atheism is based on "what we now right now". That means that ancient greek atheists would've claimed to live in the centre of the universe. A couple of hundred years later christianity killed people who claimed the earth was round and people who claimed that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe. That was later disproven.
Saying that disproving specific parts of a persons belief does not disprove the entire religion - especially if the generic people in the religion does not believe it.
In the same manner reference to other facts will not prove facts in the same texts. This applies both ways (for both theists and atheists).
Lasty, to both Mytical and Elodin: I'm kinda tired of you two running around in your self righteous little circles. Claiming the other is ignorant, 'cuz francly your both behaving stupid. Both of you are adult and intelligent individuals and I was expecting more from you (yeah, I'm back seat moderating!).
(I'm gonna assume that my previous post was ignored because it was not understood. So what happened to ohforf? Haven't seen him around.)
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted October 07, 2010 05:56 PM |
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Atheism as a religion is very flexible. It is not a religion, it is many.
Two large obstacles that everyone must hurdle in discussing faith/belief are 'terms' and worse yet, the low-tech-medium of 'deep and difficult communication attempted by typing of all things'.
That was NOT directed at you I'm just stating the obvious. Consider 'Terms' and I'll use "a Christian's view of Christianity"
One man defines a Faith that identifies very closely with the same view that many mainstream-non-believers(2 terms there) have, while someone like myself, is sick of the worn-out phrases/terms etc. used and abused by savvy marketers (wolves in sheeps-clothing) out to make a buck. As for my Christianity, it is defined ; "I follow The Way and little else" To many, nonbelievers and believers, my definition is a load of tripe! I know that 'Religion' is an oft used term but I do not like it nor use it anymore. It seems to mean many things to many people. I do not see how a meaningful discussion can be had anymore, about most any on-line-subject, with so much flying around undefined and flying above, both heads doing the 'typing'
And that brings me to the 'Medium'. Without body-language and facial expression to depend on, when wading out into the term-definitions-bias-perspectives quagmire to create a B/W string of letters?
Good luck, Be blessed...whichever.
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xerox
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posted October 07, 2010 06:26 PM |
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how can you compare atheism to religion
religous people always believe in the same thing, while atheists believe in theories that constantly change when a better theory comes
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 07, 2010 06:44 PM |
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So does religion.
In middle age people could pay off their sins with money. Not possible anymore.
Church clearly said earth was round back then too. That isn't the case anymore.
There are hundreds of examples like that. Those two were just from catholic christianity and easy examples.
Protestant christianity you could take women as priests, for example, that's a new evolution of religion.
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del_diablo
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posted October 07, 2010 07:37 PM |
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Quote:
how can you compare atheism to religion
religous people always believe in the same thing, while atheists believe in theories that constantly change when a better theory comes
That would ironically be wrong.
Atheists don't believe in the theories, they accept reality.
The big bang is mathematical proven to be possible, but itself it is one of the many theories we have.
A atheist don't have "faith" or believe anything like a theist would do, a theist more or less lives in a disillusion after its religion it follow. There are recent exceptions, where the religion decides to not attempt to describe everything without any sound explanation, religions that is born in the future would be a lot more "lore" and a lot less "the world worked like that", unless we go back to the stone age of course 
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted October 07, 2010 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
So does religion.
In middle age people could pay off their sins with money. Not possible anymore.
Church clearly said earth was round back then too. That isn't the case anymore.
There are hundreds of examples like that. Those two were just from catholic christianity and easy examples.
Correct me if I am wrong, but those changes were forced by scientist, and not by specific theists, right?
So religion just changed their point of view "when there was no way out". Maybe you know how Gallilei was treated when he claimed (as founded by Copernicus) the earth is NOT the middle of the universe, but turns around the sun....
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted October 07, 2010 07:53 PM |
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Scientists stopped the Catholic Church from absolving sins for money?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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