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| Thread: Stephen Hawking -The Grand Design- |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Keksimaton
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Talk to the hand
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posted October 07, 2010 07:58 PM |
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@Elodin:
The laws of thermodynamics and that whole thing about the galaxies being trackable to have come from a single spot do suggest that the universe had a beginning and will propably end as well, but what exactly is it that excludes all other possibilities for what was before the universe besides such a god? What is it that would make whatever sci-fi explanation that I or anyone else could come up with, any less credible?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2010 11:02 PM |
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well I remember they said in school that the devil was invented by the church in the middle-ages to force people to convert to christainity and pay money to the church etc
also the english word "hell" is really similar to the norse goddess of the underworld "Hel", her domain is the underground Helheim
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Over himself, over his own
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- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
Responsible
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posted October 08, 2010 01:25 AM |
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Quote:
However, the facts certainly favor theism over atheism. We know from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe can't be eternal. Recent observatinos also confirm this. The observations of the COLE sattelite and Hubble telescope proved the universe had a beginning. That was the death kneel of atheism as any pretense of a rational religion. Since the universe needs a beginning, there had to be a First Cause. That cause had to be uncaused, timeless, spaceless, eternal, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable. God.
has it been proven that there was a beginning? from what I read, it hadn't. maybe it has no beginning and then your logic is flawed.
I don't know much about physics, but the time isn't necessary linear, is it?
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 08, 2010 01:56 AM |
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angelito & baklava: The entire reason is more or less that protestantism was formed, which main fuel was that the bible now could get PRINTED by a certain device.
Printing device had been invented before in history, but this time it was able to be delivered to the people AND it stayed besides the people.
The church itself was against it: The people could actually now READ the bible THEMSELF if they got taught how to read, THEY could start QUESTIONING the entire large powerchain the church was.
So what happened is that the exact moment the church got weaker, that was the moment monarches realized they could take the 1/10 the church took in indirect taxation FOR THEMSELVES, and thus the reformation happened quite fast.
The "sin tax" more or less fell apart.
So indirectly or directly depending on the interprention: Science was a part of it, or at the least research and hard testing. Johannes Gutenberg apparently invented the ink he used.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted October 08, 2010 05:30 AM |
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Hm.
That looks like a tasty piece of logic.
Aye, I suppose it was one of the factors then. Two points for you.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 08, 2010 12:39 PM |
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It hasn't been proven that there was a beginning to everything but it can be proven that there was a beginning to this universe.
Time is relative, if it even exists at all.
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shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted October 08, 2010 01:39 PM |
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Time is proven to be the fourth dimension(at least on of them), but there's also proof that there's at least twelve dimensions and that space(the three first dimensions) are, opposite of general belief, bendable(not straight). Time and the other dimensions might very well be bent as well and what that'd mean is hard(impossible even) to determain.
For example: scientists have no idea how electrons move. They seem to be teleporting from one place to another at times(believed to happen in dimension 5+).
Or just the fact fotons sometimes collide with themselves are unexplainable with four straight dimensions.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 08, 2010 01:57 PM |
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Nope, time isn't proven.
You can't prove time with current methods at our disposal.
It is just a convenient way to explain all that's happening.
Yeah, there could be any number of dimensions were not able to observe. If I remember correctly you'd need 8 dimensions to explain the world through the M-theory that is one of the main themes in Hawkings new book.
I have way too many physics jokes aobut that subject. And they all suck so bad...
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 08, 2010 10:50 PM |
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Let's take time like most people understand it.
Then we can go right to the beginning. Time is only relative to the person outside the said effect of the gravity. So if you were to drop in a black hole, for example, you would find yourself dropping at "normal" speed in time while everyone watching you from outside the black hole would see you slow down and eventually stop all together. Same applies to the beginning of the universe in case of big bang. If you're inside the indefinitely tight spot then time moves "normally".
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Fauch
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posted October 08, 2010 10:57 PM |
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Quote:
On the same token, big bang, as I've understood it, comes from the observation of the red shifted light (big bang background?) in the universe, telling that all matter is accelerating away from a given point (or several points?). At least it has apparently been possible to calculate all matter to have been at a single point.
and does it prove it was the beginning? that there was nothing before?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 08, 2010 11:26 PM |
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Oh no, it was just a correction to ohfor's post.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 09, 2010 06:15 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:42, 09 Oct 2010.
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Instead of going to the 'you are insulting me' (which I wasn't) bit right off the bat you could have just replied to the post. Which is why I stopped even bothering to debate. When everything is an insult even when it isn't, why bother?
As for if a higher power has anything to do with the creation of a universe or not..even IF I believe your thesis (without proof) that a higher power is behind the creation of the universe. (Which I do think a higher power is, but know there is no PROOF) Nowhere in there does it mean that it is GOD (and not Allah, or the flying spaghetti Monster, or some alien from dimension x) that is that higher power. As I said, until there is concrete proof, it is all conjecture and myth.
I mean would you consider Zeus and company a Myth? Because there is no proof that they had anything to do with anything..right? Same with 'god' I am afraid. If Zeus is a Myth, so is God. Because no proof exists for either of them.
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invictus7
Adventuring Hero
Lurking About...
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posted October 10, 2010 12:30 PM |
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@Elodin and other theists etc.
First of all you claim that atheists are the most closed-minded people you know. Why then are you refusing to acknowledge others' opinions and just throw the book (bible) at them?
Religion, more specifically Christianity has refused to adapt to modern discoveries. If you say to a theist 'why does the apple fall?' 9/10 times they will say 'because god wanted it to.'
Ask anyone else 9/10 times 'gravity.' What does god gain from making the apple fall?
I find that christianity is riddled with flaws. With your absolute morals; is it wrong to kill? 'yes.' Why then do you worship a symbol that was used to kill countless people for trivial reasons?
Lastly, it is upon you and all theists to prove god's existence it is not upon me to disprove it.
You therefore cannot say 'God exists,'
"prove it."
"disprove it.
FYI i'm actually agnostic and am not ruling out the existence of a higher being, although everyday there are more and more reasons against the existence of one.
Me disagreeing with you does not mean you are wrong. It is called acknowledging and respecting someone's opinion, whether I agree or disagree with you. [sarcasm]Yes, acknowledging someone's opinion, might be a foreign concept, I know.[/sarcasm]
all the best.
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baklava
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posted October 10, 2010 12:34 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:34, 10 Oct 2010.
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Sigh.
Here's another one.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 10, 2010 03:54 PM |
- penalty applied by Mytical on 11 Oct 2010. |
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Invictus, You seem like a nice guy, but please, don't even bother to attempt to change Elodin's mind on anything, unless you want to be hit by repeated arguements that make no sense with a complaint/insult smoothie on the side.
if you are serious about debating Elodin on any subject, Grab a hammer and start smashing your cranium in until you are down on his level.
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Markkur
Honorable
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Once upon a time
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posted October 10, 2010 07:53 PM |
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Edited by Markkur at 19:55, 10 Oct 2010.
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@Elodin and other theists etc.{/quote]
Since I'm the only 'other' than Elodin it appears, your post is directed at me as well?
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First of all you claim that atheists are the most closed-minded people you know. Why then are you refusing to acknowledge others' opinions and just throw the book (bible) at them?
I would not say that. <imo> Hardheads abound on any topic. I can be one on many topic's in another eyes. I do live by the Words of Christ but I would not throw any book at anyone, unless in a mutually agreed upon debate. Although that approach, appears seldom sought. Me included, I'm usualy in too much pain to mess with it.
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Religion, more specifically Christianity has refused to adapt to modern discoveries. If you say to a theist 'why does the apple fall?' 9/10 times they will say 'because god wanted it to.'
Partly correct. There were times when the Church actually financed Science. There were lots of Popes that were the best buddies of Kings and held identical values that had nothing to do with a typical definition of Faith. Also, past and present, there are men that see God and Science together...not apart.
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Ask anyone else 9/10 times 'gravity.' What does god gain from making the apple fall?
Hmmm, Apple juice.
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I find that christianity is riddled with flaws.
Since I have lived by it for 30 years, I think I can share a different opinion. Chrisitanity is not riddled with flaws but every man that pursues, sure can be. I get ticked at the little progress I have made this far. I wrecked my 57 once and it sure wasn't the vehicles fault.
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With your absolute morals; is it wrong to kill? 'yes.' Why then do you worship a symbol that was used to kill countless people for trivial reasons?
I suppose the Cross is what you refer to here? I love to build cabinets. Should I never use a hammer because someone killed another with one? You may not care, but to me, The Cross, represents an 'intersection of lives', a crossroads. It's a Chance to be a better Father, brother, friend, mapmaker or whatever role at the moment.
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Lastly, it is upon you and all theists to prove god's existence it is not upon me to disprove it.
Wow. Thank God you are wrong. It's not up to me to prove anything. I would not be up to that responsiblity...ever in my life. The only way I can 'prove' my Christianity is live it and that of course is an 'inside-job' and is for public consumption but not acceptance. What I mean is; there should be my good actions going towards others whether they are Christian or not.
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You therefore cannot say 'God exists,'
Hopefully you are a nice person and can see the error of this procamation. He 'exists' to me in a real way, no matter how absurd that sounds. Anyway, in my world, people should be allowed to say what they like, as long as it not at another's expense.
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FYI i'm actually agnostic and am not ruling out the existence of a higher being, although everyday there are more and more reasons against the existence of one.
Doing the Hp thing; What if, God or 'your higher-being' has the Time-travel down and Instant Travels around the universe trying to get folks to love better and more often? Would not be the only time man mucked up something simple, into a complex mess.
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Me disagreeing with you does not mean you are wrong. It is called acknowledging and respecting someone's opinion, whether I agree or disagree with you. [sarcasm]Yes, acknowledging someone's opinion, might be a foreign concept, I know.[/sarcasm]
all the best.
I can appreciate that sentiment. I put my flamethrower away a long time ago. Make it great, Markkur
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invictus7
Adventuring Hero
Lurking About...
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posted October 11, 2010 08:13 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Lastly, it is upon you and all theists to prove god's existence it is not upon me to disprove it.
Wow. Thank God you are wrong. It's not up to me to prove anything. I would not be up to that responsiblity...ever in my life. The only way I can 'prove' my Christianity is live it and that of course is an 'inside-job' and is for public consumption but not acceptance. What I mean is; there should be my good actions going towards others whether they are Christian or not.
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You therefore cannot say 'God exists,'
First of all, please don't take my post out of context. Maybe I should clarify...
The above quote was not directed at personally youbut if you argue with me about god's existence trying to prove something to me, and again I'm not talking on a personal level, then imo it's unsatisfactory if you simply get your reasons from the things that science can't explain, yet. And therefore not upon me to disprove it.
But then again you would've all many thought and more experience (and time) on this matter which I'm only beginning to develop.
At the end of the day, you're only arguing with a pretentious youngster who is still confused about many things.
As I have been advised, I don't want to argue anymore because evidently it's 90% pointless, if not more.
I joined this forum for one thing and thats to talk about homm and thats what i'm gonna do.
Talking, or rather, reading with you has been enlightening in many ways.
all the best
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Question Convention
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted October 11, 2010 11:41 AM |
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It feels good to have some new members that, even after some time, seem to be good, polite and intelligent fellas! I'll be looking forward to indulge and be indulged!
The best of luck to all of us!
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 11, 2010 04:19 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:26, 11 Oct 2010.
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But then again you would've all many thought and more experience (and time) on this matter which I'm only beginning to develop. At the end of the day, you're only arguing with a pretentious youngster who is still confused about many things.
I was'nt arguing with you. It's this sadly-lacking communication-method called typing There is no humanity in it without great effort. But hard as I try I can't make a monitor smile for me<L>
Oh,btw, the older I get the less I know...er...maybe it's; "The less I want to know" You get my drift.
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As I have been advised, I don't want to argue anymore because evidently it's 90% pointless, if not more. I joined this forum for one thing and thats to talk about homm and thats what i'm gonna do.
I'm with you. I would like to make at least one team-map and also learn about map-making but I think I've run into a sortofwall m/l with H6 on its way. I could always go backwards to H3 but I played and mapped solo for nearly ten years, so I am dumb as a box of rox with WOG. I sure wish I had got with the program a long time ago and was not trying to play huge-knowledge-catch-up. Oil well
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Talking, or rather, reading with you has been enlightening in many ways. all the best
Well thanks. Here's a chuckle for you that always keeps this old dog (I used to be called maddog) grounded. "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"
Good talking with you too. If you ever want to talk 'J.R.R.Tolkien and his works' or about Faery, writing, Epic poetry, etc" that kind of stuff...remember Markkur Might bore you to tears but It's my real playground. To me it's the scenery behind HoMM in a big way.
Make a great day/map.
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"Do your own research"
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 11, 2010 04:40 PM |
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It feels good to have some new members that, even after some time, seem to be good, polite and intelligent fellas! I'll be looking forward to indulge and be indulged!
Hopefully I do not err in replying a thank-you. To be honest I've not been replied-to very much, at least clearly. I know that some folks blood-pressure rises a lot in posting. If you never experienced it...it's a drag. I did years back for some reason. Sorta makes it easy to 'hit a nerve'
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The best of luck to all of us!
I'll second that. Wait, how many are listed here? 15,000+? I'll 15.248th that. I know...corn...not cool. Had to do it
Make it great...whatever it is.
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"Do your own research"
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