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| Thread: Random Map Generator Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 20, 2010 12:56 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 20:07, 10 Mar 2011.
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Random Map Generator Discussion
As I have searched the forums for an answer, a clue or just a whisper, it seems that there has not been a word from the developers whether there will be a map generator in Heroes 6 or not. I am bringing up this point as I want to underline what in my eyes is one of the most important fundamentals in Heroes of Might and Magic.
To me Heroes of Might and Magic is about replayability and exploring a fascinating endless fantasy world. Imagine playing Heroes 6 for the first time, you have selected your hero and are ready to go. You set out to explore the map and you find various creatures and structures as well as treasures and artifacts. Now since this is your first time playing everything is new to you, you don't know where the creatures, dwellings or artifacts are and so on.
So just like the heroes themselves you need to explore the surroundings without the slightest of what you might find next. So point is, with never having played a specific map before it will be something new to explore and discover each time. So to allow the player to always have a new map to play we need to have a good Random Map Generator(RMG).
In previous heroes titles for example heroes 3 the RMG was first release with an expansion and in Heroes 5 it was released with a content patch. So by looking at the past assumptions can be made that they will add a RMG to Heroes 6, whether it be in the initial release, an expansion or in a content patch. However it might require a lot of work to make a RMG, so some might say that it will be a waste of time since random maps will never be as good as “man-made” maps. However with correct programming and implementation a RMG can make infinitely good maps.
The reason for this thread is not only for me to to tell the developers how much some people want a RMG, but it is also meant as a discussion zone for ideas and opinions on the possibility of a RMG.
So please post your ideas on the subject here, and tell us what you think. 
Personally if they implement a RMG I want them to make sure that there are lot of options, randomness is fantastic but when it controlled by options it becomes awesome. For example they should give the player the ability to decide things like how much of diffrent things there should be.
For example:
* neutral towns
* dwellings
* mines
* Dragon Utopias 
* number of regions
* entrance to regions
and so on
TL;DR : I hope that they will have a Random Map Generator in Heroes 6, and if you an opinion on the matter such as ideas or thoughts please share them here.
================ UPDATE 03 MAR ================
Note: Before you say that there is too many options, let me just say that:
The Goal with a good RMG is not to force the player to choose, but to offer him the power to do so IF he wish.
Things like templates and default options will allow the player to pick and choose whatever he/she wish to alter.
Here is a nice list of feature, functions and options that I'd like to see in Heroes 6
LEGEND
¤ - This means an option exist both for starting areas AND non-starting areas.
(#) - This means the option is selected as following:
minimum value(-------<*>-------------<*>----------)top value
start value max value
(the <*> symbols are drag-able)
[y/n] - Check-box, Yes or No
[P] - This option is player specific, aka you can choose which player that will have the specific option.
NOTES
* When I use the term treasures I mean everything worth finding or acquire. For example useful map objects, artifacts, resources and even towns.
* All options can ignored if the player wish, all options have a mini check-box that either makes the options random or disable it's function entirely. (for example, if the player use this for the “Tear of Asha option” it will be random, but if he use it for the “Tech-limit option” it's means there won't be a tech limit at all.)
* With this many options it is VITAL that the options selected remain till the next time you want to generate a map. There should might even be an function that lets you save the options you have selected.
SYMMETRY
* Total Randomness (different templates for all start-regions)
* Normal(H5) (same template ie. Different amount of artifacts and resources)
* Equal-Random Starts (exactly the same amount of artifacts and resources but they are random)
* Equal Start-Regions (same artifacts, resources, mines and equal amount of dwellings)
* Pseudo Mirrored Map (All Terrain(not type though) is equal but artifacts and units are different.)
* Completely Mirrored Map (everything is equal)
NO TOWN MAPS?
Help me with this, I think it could be really cool if it could be made working properly.
It basicly mean you can create custom scenarios/RPG maps with a RMG... (well something similar at least)
This(and normal maps as well) could contain options such as random special events. Like Ohforfsake suggested, undead popping out from the ground when traveling through certain terrain...
TEAM-ORIENTED MAPS
* Same Start-regions
or
* Connected Start-regions (but still different locations)
or
* Distant Start-regions (for example in the to opposite cornerr of the map.)
or
* Random (it can be Connect Start-regions or just any Start-regions but it cannot be the same Start Region.)
Of course these options can be combined if more then 2 allies are in the same team.
OTHER OPTIONS This below to the right show how you can select the options. Either by giving absolute values (an exact number of towns for example or an approximate. value of creature dwellings.)
[y/n] Tear of Asha
Size of the map roughly
Number of player exact
[P] Amount of Start-Towns(if players can start with more then one town)
Victory Condition
¤ Amount of mines in starting areas (exact/roughly)
Amount of non-start regions (exact/roughly)
¤ Monster strength in start regions
¤ Amount unguarded resources (roughly)
¤ Amount of creature dwellings (roughly)
¤ Amount of guarded resources/artifacts (roughly)
¤ Balance between low-, mid- and high-level treasures. (roughly)
Number of towns (exact/roughly)
Allowed Terrains
Allowed Monsters (faction-wise)
Random Monsters/Artifacts (if they are the same if you replay or restart the map)
(#) Water Ratio
(#)[P] Starting Tech (exact(adv*)/roughly)
(#)[P] Tech Limit for starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
(#) Starting Tech for non-starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
- Adv. option: You can choose that the non-starting towns have different random levels.
(#) Tech Limit for non-starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
- Adv. option: You can choose that the non-starting towns have different tech limits.
*adv = you can have an option where you choose exactly what to start with
MORE (ADVANCED) OPTIONS (Check-boxes in these cases means for each different object, hero, spell...)
[y/n] Allowed Adventure-map buildings
For example a lot of check-boxes that allows the player to disable or allows certain map objects.
(Prisons, Seer Huts, Dragon Utopias, Arenas...)
[y/n] Allowed Spells/Skills (This could of course be combined with ordinary map options when you create a game.)
[y/n] Allowed Heroes
[y/n] Allowed Week Events
[y/n] Allowed Monsters (note this can specify exactly which units that should be allowed or not on the adventure-map)
[P] Allowed amount of heroes a player can posses.
[y/n] The existence of Bosses
Amount of Bosses (exact/roughly)
Strength of the Bosses (roughly)
Level of treasures guarded by Bosses
[P] Starting Units
[P] Starting Artifacts
¤ One-Way Portals (exact/roughly)
¤ Gates (exact/roughly)
(#)[P] Starting- and Max-Level for starting heroes
Ability to lock the map (Needs a password for opening the map in the Editor. (But you can still play the map without password.))
- Credit to Infinitus
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 20, 2010 03:47 AM |
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TEAM PLAY!!!
I can't explain how much frustration I had over this. My cousins and I are avid heroes fans and we couldn't find a good multiplayer map WITH TEAMS the way we wanted. So we tried the random map generator. But you can't customize teams to your liking. You either have preset variations or no team support at all.
It would be nice if the RMG gave us as many options from the map editor as possible:
Teams (how many teams, which player goes to which team etc.)
Starting towns, starting heroes and bonuses
Options for a handicaps
Some custom events e.g. bonus resources for the first week if you plan on playing a short fast game with friends
And so on. A good RMG, as Jabanoss said, makes sure you have a new map everytime.
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 20, 2010 05:04 AM |
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The homm5 RMG gave me heaps of replayability, it was just a shame the AI got stuck sometimes and the Huge maps has stability issues and the AI turns took forever.
I would have played for years if those could have been sorted and one of my biggest desires in HoMM 6. (that and set items again)
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted November 20, 2010 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
The homm5 RMG gave me heaps of replayability, it was just a shame the AI got stuck sometimes and the Huge maps has stability issues and the AI turns took forever.
I would have played for years if those could have been sorted and one of my biggest desires in HoMM 6. (that and set items again)
I agree so much. I myself like to play these huge maps with 8 players, however when you did that in hereos 5 you needed to wait for years for the AI's turns T_T. So I really hope they fix that issue in Heroes 6.
Another thing that would be cool if they implemented would be random quests, maybe something like:
* kill specific monster
* bring artifact
* free a selected hero
and for completing a quest you can choose from a number of rewards.
Something like that maybe 
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 20, 2010 01:31 PM |
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I play solo. and Hotseat. I have found the RMG in H5 very limited. To get what I want I HAVE to modify. It's a preference issue of course.
Here's what I hope to see in H6.
Options as to difficulty as defined "within the Editor". What I mean is not the difficulty of the game setting but lots of "variations" that are "possible" when you generate a map and they are not brimming with bonuses by default, if I've selected Islands "they are four large squares with an inch of space on the outer edge of the map, and there is always a near portal to every main town. So, someway to alter a "general-format" to greater diversity. Maybe something like this;
A Option box that has these selectables:
Proximity of factions= Near, mid, far, very far
Islands = One, some, lots, scads
Heroes = Levels, 1, 10, Maxed
And of course...some control over Map ojects, what, how many etc.
My centandahalf
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"Do your own research"
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 23, 2010 11:24 PM |
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Random map Generator is out according to Xhane.
Worst news yet for me.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 23, 2010 11:34 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 23:35, 23 Dec 2010.
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yeah I know 
I feel the same, random generated maps have always been a huge bacon of light in the Heroes games for me. :/
Well lets hope the really take themselves time after the release and start doing one. At least we can hope for one in a content-patch or something later on.(like it was with H5)
Best bump ever by the way  
Now I can post more ideas
I have said before that I'm advocate of options. And a big problem with random maps can often be that they are too imbalanced towards the players. One could have the best luck ever while the other one only have crap in his territory.
But this should be adjusted by options. The player should have the option of choosing how the map should be balanced-wise. Players could choose if the map should be mirrored, symmetrical or just random.
The map could be just random but with exactly the same things in the starting territories for example. So if they implement enough options the possibilities would be endless, and then balance wouldn't be an issue anymore
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 23, 2010 11:41 PM |
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I hope they do release an RMG in a later expansion and give it the attention it deserves. Like you I enjoy options.
I really liked the H5 monster strength scale too and would love to see that in again. Also some control over the special buildings in players areas and non player areas.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 24, 2010 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
yeah I know
I feel the same, random generated maps have always been a huge bacon of light in the Heroes games for me. :/
Wiht that in mind. I can't imagine it will not follow. <IMO> It's too important to too many. What surprised me is the two are separated. I would have guessed them to be inter-linked in some fashion. I suppose they are and the add-on later could go in to the ME files structure.
Quote:
I have said before that I'm advocate of options.
Maybe the positive side of this is; ideas that are expressed here may yet still be able to be implemented?
____________
"Do your own research"
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted December 24, 2010 09:33 PM |
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I'm sure it'll follow; keep in mind that HIII didn't get its RMG until what, Armageddon's Blade?
In any case, if they're releasing the Map Editor early, we should have some very nice community maps to play with.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 11:05 PM |
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It's an easy trap to fall into by creating an editor and then relying on the community to provide content; and certainly, there is some brilliant community contributions.
The trouble is for users like myself I can't stand trawling through crap to find an occasional gem. That and usually it takes years for great stuff to filter through and become easily accessible. If an RMG doesn't come in the first expansion I fear for the replayability.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 24, 2010 11:25 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:26, 24 Dec 2010.
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Quote:
The trouble is for users like myself I can't stand trawling through crap to find an occasional gem.
Exactly, moreover the first good community-made maps will start appearing in no less than two-three months after the release of the game because nobody's acqainted with the new mechanics and all the issues associated with them. Well-made and properly balanced L and XL maps will take even longer and frankly I very rarely bother with S and M shrimps (only in multi-player games and if the opponent explicitly refuses to play on anything else no matter what). It just takes quite a lot of time to make a map which is beautiful, interresting and equally challenging for all the factions, no matter their starting positions and building/recruitment plans.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 25, 2010 02:39 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 02:40, 25 Dec 2010.
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Custom created maps is also ofc extremely important, so I'm really glad they put focus on that. But you can't really rely on custom maps when you just needs something fast to play.
I mean once you have played a couple of times on the same maps you kinda get bored. So therefore we need a RMG. But I'm confident that it will come eventually.
Some more thoughts...
They need to add victory condition as an option in the generated maps, for example just because I choose to add the Tear of Asha in the map doesn't mean I want to win as soon as I construct the "Tear of Asha-building"
I also want make us players to be able to choose which factions that are allowed on the map, It would be really cool to play on a huge map with only the Stronghold faction
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 25, 2010 12:19 PM |
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Can't their Map Editor come with a feature to randomly generate a map?
Personally, I preffer to have an RMG over a Map Editor any time.
Here are my arguments:
1. Map Editor takes time to learn and use, trial and error to create even a simple and boring map. The RMG does that automatically in a matter of minutes.
2. Playing a map you made through the Map Editor takes away the fun of exploring. You will know already where the Dragon Utopia, the Artifact Merchants, the Gold Mines and all other places of interest, are.
3. There is fairness in randomness. With everything set to random, you don't have to worry about being a fair to all factions (which, I think requires a considerable effort to achieve) when making a map. The RMG is random. And well, if even with the RMG one side is being favored, then you just generate another map.
Most importantly for me, I like to play only in extra large maps with all factions. And I wanna play like that from the day I buy the game. The RMG is the only way to go.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2011 11:38 PM |
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It is looking promising for an RMG according to the latest Q&A; although maybe not at release.
Quote:
We might add a campaign editor later, and about the random map generator: its too early to talk about it.
Too early to talk about it is certainly not a no, although it may well be reserved for an expansion.
Happy days!
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 02, 2011 11:44 PM |
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Sherekhaan my savior! You keep on reviving this lovable thread.
Yeah but we should have a RMG with time. I don't accept anything less.
Hmm I should really post all my ideas for improvements concerning a RMG that I have been keeping...
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 03, 2011 12:42 AM |
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A limit on how close interactive map locations of the same type can come would be a good start, do away with that '3 windmills in 10 spaces' rubbish you tended to get in every other map in H3.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted March 03, 2011 09:26 AM |
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some very nice suggestions here.
I personally love map editors, but I seldomly finished a nearly good map...only in H3 and those are gone with one of my older pcs for a long time. rmg provided chance to have more maps, yet in H5, I didn't use it much, because my laptop (only pc these times) isn't that good and anything took sooo long...
however, from the mentioned ones, victory conditions, faction appeareance and quests are the ones I'd like to have in most!
Also, as mentioned a bit before, I think one needs control on the number and spreading of teleporters, shipyards, and underground accesses even more direly than for the other AM-objects.
____________
ICTC announced
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2011 11:28 AM |
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One of the problem with RMG is opponent suspicion you looked, played rmg map before to get advantage vs him. So will be good idea to generate map right after players selected in game room factions, heroes and pressed start game ... On start screen must be indicated date of map generated.
This eliminate one more problems exiting in H5 RMG - you generate map with random factions, after in game room players select factions they want, start game and in this game are big chance to not get native grounds for your faction on start location, is annoying to start game with Sylvan on dwarf snow ...
RMG must be as simple in use as possible. RMG must have advanced options, but players must have possibility to leave all on default and start game in 1 second without tweaking tons of options ...
More intelligent artifacts placement , for example as Sylvan i don't want to have in start zone, 3 artifacts of necromancy, i have no use for them. Will be good to set rule - only one artifact of each tip in start zone, or even more advanced rules such us - if player 1 is sylvan, no necromancer art in start zone etc ...
More intelligent building placement. For example i don't want to have in start zone 3 markets or 3 war machines factory or 3 astrology tower or 3 mentors ... So again nice to set rule only one building of this tip in start zone ...
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 03, 2011 06:45 PM |
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No map generator on the first release of the game; see last interview.
May be this a good point, reagarding Ubi will probably make it better then last one.
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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