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| Thread: Random Map Generator Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 03, 2011 07:13 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 19:34, 03 Mar 2011.
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So is it time for a Mega-update? 
I have made “a little” list over things that I wish to see as options and features in a future Random Map Generator for H6. Some of them might be too specific but they are still interesting and could be very useful from time to time.
I have divided the List into different categories that will simplify this. The “Legend” down below is meant to explain some of symbols that I'm using to make this easier and shorter.
LEGEND
¤ - This means an option exist both for starting areas AND non-starting areas.
(#) - This means the option is selected as following:
minimum value(-------<*>-------------<*>----------)top value
start value max value
(the <*> symbols are drag-able)
[y/n] - Check-box, Yes or No
[P] - This option is player specific, aka you can choose which player that will have the specific option.
NOTES
* When I use the term treasures I mean everything worth finding or acquire. For example useful map objects, artifacts, resources and even towns.
* All options can ignored if the player wish, all options have a mini check-box that either makes the options random or disable it's function entirely. (for example, if the player use this for the “Tear of Asha option” it will be random, but if he use it for the “Tech-limit option” it's means there won't be a tech limit at all.)
* With this many options it is VITAL that the options selected remain till the next time you want to generate a map. There should might even be an function that lets you save the options you have selected.
SYMMETRY
* Total Randomness (different templates for all start-regions)
* Normal(H5) (same template ie. Different amount of artifacts and resources)
* Equal-Random Starts (exactly the same amount of artifacts and resources but they are random)
* Equal Start-Regions (same artifacts, resources, mines and equal amount of dwellings)
* Pseudo Mirrored Map (All Terrain(not type though) is equal but artifacts and units are different.)
* Completely Mirrored Map (everything is equal)
NO TOWN MAPS?
Help me with this, I think it could be really cool if it could be made working properly. 
It basicly mean you can create custom scenarios/RPG maps with a RMG... (well something similar at least)
TEAM-ORIENTED MAPS
* Same Start-regions
or
* Connected Start-regions
or
* Random (it can be Connect Start-regions or just any Start-regions but it cannot be the same Start Region.)
Of course these options can be combined if more then 2 allies are in the same team.
OTHER OPTIONS This below to the right show how you can select the options. Either by giving absolute values (an exact number of towns for example or an approximate. value of creature dwellings.)
[y/n] Tear of Asha
Size of the map roughly
Number of player exact
[P] Amount of Start-Towns(if players can start with more then one town)
Victory Condition
¤ Amount of mines in starting areas (exact/roughly)
Amount of non-start regions (exact/roughly)
¤ Monster strength in start regions
¤ Amount unguarded resources (roughly)
¤ Amount of creature dwellings (roughly)
¤ Amount of guarded resources/artifacts (roughly)
¤ Balance between low-, mid- and high-level treasures. (roughly)
Number of towns (exact/roughly)
Allowed Terrains
Allowed Monsters (faction-wise)
Random Monsters/Artifacts (if they are the same if you replay or restart the map)
(#) Water Ratio
(#)[P] Starting Tech (exact(adv*)/roughly)
(#)[P] Tech Limit for starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
(#) Starting Tech for non-starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
- Adv. option: You can choose that the non-starting towns have different random levels.
(#) Tech Limit for non-starting towns (exact(adv*)/roughly)
- Adv. option: You can choose that the non-starting towns have different tech limits.
*adv = you can have an option where you choose exactly what to start with
MORE (ADVANCED) OPTIONS (Check-boxes in these cases means for each different object, hero, spell...)
[y/n] Allowed Adventure-map buildings
For example a lot of check-boxes that allows the player to disable or allows certain map objects.
(Prisons, Seer Huts, Dragon Utopias, Arenas...)
[y/n] Allowed Spells/Skills (This could of course be combined with ordinary map options when you create a game.)
[y/n] Allowed Heroes
[y/n] Allowed Week Events
[y/n] Allowed Monsters (note this can specify exactly which units that should be allowed or not on the adventure-map)
[P] Allowed amount of heroes a player can posses.
[y/n] The existence of Bosses
Amount of Bosses (exact/roughly)
Strength of the Bosses (roughly)
Level of treasures guarded by Bosses
[P] Starting Units
[P] Starting Artifacts
(#)[P] Starting- and Max-Level for starting heroes
I have added this list to the master post, because note that this is a work in progress, and if you have some awesome ideas for other options or functions, then please share them.
Also remember that just as Markkur said, since the RMG won't be released with H6 we have the opportunity right now to make sure that our ideas can be implemented in a future random map generator.
And if you see something you don't understand or want changed, please tell me and I will add, change and answer. 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted March 03, 2011 10:35 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 23:00, 03 Mar 2011.
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Quote:
No map generator on the first release of the game; see last interview.
May be this a good point, reagarding Ubi will probably make it better then last one.
Like in H5 the map editor?! Tha twas released later, too, and it's the worst ME of the game, imo...
also some aditons to jabas list (and commetns)
-Quote:
* Pseudo Mirrored Map (All Terrain(not type though) is equal but artifacts and units are different.)
don't understand this...
- No-Town Maps sounds very interesting. Maybe together with different goal options?!
-for team start regions, I think seperated start regions should be an option, too, maybe added by symmetrical start regions, like 4 players are there, each one starts in one corner, and the teams are on the opposite sites of the AM...
-Maybe I missed it out, but for miscallaneous options...I still miss control over transportation matters, especially portals and GATES!!!
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ICTC announced
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 03, 2011 10:44 PM |
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It's all well thought and nice jabanoos. But I would personally hate to have to go through so many buttons.
I'd much more prefer if a set of map templates (don't confuse it with the HoMM 3 ones, please), could be specified in advantage. Then you could randomize each template, with a given key and randomize the map using those randomized templates, but again, with a specific key.
This way, you'd get something you'd like, but you'd not need a thousands buttons to be sufficient specific, and you'd not get something that's only an approximation to what you might want.
An example. You know what I always like to do? Well except raping anything I see, I like to let necro be able to attack suddenly!
After all, necros control the undead and there are probably many corpses in the ground at certain areas. Here, I give necro the ability to pop up. They often can't leave this area, at least not straight away, but it defines dangerous areas. It doesn't need to be a computer and the area doesn't need to be more obvious than a graveyard in the middle ages, i.e. it could be a forest, with a bit too many trees!
I also like the idea that stronghold are some kind of vikings. So I want the stronghold town to be on a rather isolated island, and I want them to be able to sail deep into the land!
So if I could create those two spots as a kind of template. By using the right buttons, choosing constant parameters and what can be randomized and in what range. Then let the map spew these areas out. Since one of them is a starting area, there may only be a single one of this area. Maybe there'll be several, but then only one will be a starting area, unless Stronghold starts with several towns.
All in all, I think it's important not to make it to complex, but still be as specific as the user wants. In the end, this does not require a thousand buttons you can press, it requires a tree of buttons. You create one part of the tree and reuse it again and again, randomized in the range you want to the degree you want.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted March 03, 2011 10:45 PM |
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no, the map editor will be with the vanilla release. The RMG, ostensibly, will be released some time after that.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 03, 2011 10:59 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 23:53, 03 Mar 2011.
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Thanks for replying Ohforf, Always appreciated  (and I do indeed have a bump in my pants...)
Yeah I can feel that my "vision" may be a bit complicated and complex, but don't get me wrong it's supposed to be easy to use and should not force anyone to go through all these options.
The way I imagine it is that some kind of template still exists, but if you wish, you can change almost everything. that was partly the point I was trying to make with the default options.
But I will add templates as an option, and they will be described as "custom made option packages".
Hmm I like that thing you mentioned about undead popping out from the ground. I thought about adding special events as an option. But the way you described really made it sounds possible in a good way. If certain ground could be associated with various events for example undead, bandits, vikings...
yeah that would be awesome, I will add that as well.
But my point is that the RMG should be easy too use but hard to master also very complex and advanced if the user so wish.
Because I agree that it can be painful to have to go through tons of options, when you don't really care about it anyway.
Oh didn't see that Jiriki added stuff..
Quote:
don't understand this...
In the Completly mirroed version EVERYTHING is the same including artifcts, but in this "pseudo"(=means false, mimic) the artifacts and units are different. Haha this option might be a bit redundant. 
Quote:
- No-Town Maps sounds very interesting. Maybe together with different goal options?!
Yeah and even more so if you add the special events that Ohforf was talking about.
Quote:
-for team start regions, I think seperated start regions should be an option, too, maybe added by symmetrical start regions, like 4 players are there, each one starts in one corner, and the teams are on the opposite sites of the AM...
Yeah of course, adding it right now...
Quote:
-Maybe I missed it out, but for miscallaneous options...I still miss control over transportation matters, especially portals and GATES!!!
haha okay, yeah the way I see it portals are just another for of connection between sections. But when you say it so, I have take one ways into account...
But yes gates will be added as an option.
By the way most of those kind of objects are included in the "Allowed Map Objects"-Option.
Edit: note, it is being added to the master post not to the top one here
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 03, 2011 11:55 PM |
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I don't know if this is already possible in the newer heroes games. But really. Make it possible to create and edit a map of/into any size and any amount of extra grounds one wishes for.
Then before processing, give an estimation of how much computer size it'll require, then one can cancel to 1 billion times 1 billion map before it's too late!
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 04, 2011 08:51 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 08:56, 04 Mar 2011.
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To add to what Infinitus is saying, I agree that the map should be able to be generated after or at the same time you have made your game selections such as factions, heroes...
After all that's how it was in Heroes 3, which in my opinion was the best way. This will fix the problem with wrong terrain for the wrong faction. And it will also make the "More intelligent artifacts placement" that Infinitus is mentioning work, if such an option should exist which it should in my opinion.
I also have an other idea that I have been thinking about...
One problem with a random map that some people might feel could be that they don't like to play maps which they don't know, to time after time always having to discover the map, when you instead want to focus on other things.
So in heroes you when you reveal the fog of war it will forever be gone never to return. However if the random maps would have another type of fog of war that from the beginning already have the map with terrain, buildings and various treasures revealed. But of course hasn't revealed units and other players.
And when this fog of war is being revealed, it will ofc forever be gone just like the normal Fog of War.
In short it will be like the kind of fog that hides stuff in a RTS after your have revealed something for the first time...
(if you understand what I'm trying to say... )
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 04, 2011 10:11 AM |
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I think the type of FoW you're refering to, have been in some installments of the Command and Conquer Red Alert series. Is that correct?
I think it's a great idea with two types of FoW. What I'd like is that the FoW is placed somewhat logically.
Let's assume you start with your own kingdom. So you have a town and should more or less already have knowledge about the surrounding area. Likewise you should have outposts, etc.
So, what I'd like, is that there's an area where you can see everything. This is the area that's defined as your kingdom from the get-go.
Then there's an area where there's type 1 FoW. Basically, you can see all mines, have a vague idea of monsters that live in the different areas, etc. It's what explorers from your kingdom would have been able to tell the map makers who're prepareing for your quest of conquest (or what you may fancy).
Finally, there's the outside area. Imagine if hordes upon hordes of nomads are raiding the southern parts which leads into a dessert that requires a huge caravan to be able to survive travelling through, meanwhile to the north there are huge icy mountains, not unpassable, but in these there roam huge behemoths, eating anything that tries to pass. To the East, there's a huge ocean, people have sailed out, but no one have ever returned, is it the end of the world that lies on the other side? Finally, to the west, there's a lot of volcanic activity. Basically, you don't have the means to survive in this area, where the elementals rage and magma devours.
In other words, when you go far enough in some direction, the explorers gets hindered in further process.
If anything, I'd suggest that what follow these areas should be completely unknown, even the size of the world may be unknown to you!
Therefore, I think it'd be cool if there where these two kinds of FoW, but working together.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 04, 2011 10:29 AM |
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Yes I'm referring to some thing similar that is existing in the later(read bad) C&C's. Here is a nice example of what I mean, you can see one FoW where nothing is visible and another where only the terrain and structures and being shown.
And yeah if these ideas for various FoW were to be implemented then of course it should be different options for which regions(starting, nearby...) it should apply for.
But just to clarify, I don't talk about FoW that returns after it has been revealed. It is still permanently gone once revealed for the first time.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 04, 2011 10:49 AM |
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Yes. I thought so as well. Regarding both how the FoW types works and they were not to dissapear.
In HoMM IV, I believe both types of FoW is present. The type where it doesn't go black hits right away when you leave an area unflagged.
The type where it goes black takes a little time to come back, in HoMM IV, which I think was highly critizised.
In my opinion, I think as well that the black stuff should never come back. Though I would not mind if the area could change, while you still were seeing how it once looked.
An example, imagine that when you upgrade your town it looks differently.
Now an enemy hero have been by, seen the location of your town. He'll have put on his maps, the location of where your town is.
However, the next time he may pass by, he'll realise his old maps are no longer fit, because now your town looks much more impressive and further more, it's not your town at all anymore! It's my town now!
So his map will change as he gains the new information, but until then, it'll always hold the last useable information.
Though I'm not too sure if it would be populare, but at least, if it was an option to set on/off.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 04, 2011 11:32 AM |
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Quote:
But just to clarify, I don't talk about FoW that returns after it has been revealed. It is still permanently gone once revealed for the first time.
It's very important for multiplayer that FoW remain the same as it was in H5. Then structures are not visible from start players spent very little time for plan optimal creep plan etc, then structures are visible players will spent lots of time just to figure out were to go, were to send secondaries etc, lots of information to process. Then all is black this info come to players in small portion, then all is open to view all info come at once overflowing players information band-witch, this may lead to permanent player brain damage
And yes FoW must go permanently, this make players more aggressive, they send scouts in enemy territory, spent resources on them just to have a bit more larger are clear of FoW ... If Fow return no more reason for scouts war, game loose this way a lot in strategy ...
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 04, 2011 12:38 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 12:39, 04 Mar 2011.
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Yeah well never mind about the FoW.
My original point actually was just that, if you play a random map VS a human opponent and that person has played the map before it could be unfair. A "semi-revealed map" would kinda solve that meaning that both players would have "equal chances". But on the other hand if you want to play on equal terms you just need to generate a new map entirely.
I was inspired by this from Starcraft 2 where all the maps starts as "semi-revealed".
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 08, 2011 08:21 AM |
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The greatest thing about RMG is the re-playability. I don't think I have put in more hours in any other game than Heroes!
Generating own maps takes time.
RMG all the way....
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Sherekhaan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 08, 2011 10:20 PM |
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A basic RMG with very few options and a list of saved templates, and then an advanced screen in which you can save templates would be ideal.
I like all your option Jabanoss, with my favourite being the neutrals strength. I loved playing on the hardest difficulty and just trying to get out of my valley.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 09, 2011 08:27 AM |
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For multiplayer will be good to have option to lock RMG map. This will prevent map study in map editor. In practice this can be done this way - map is generated after game start and can be loaded only using save. Save must be password protected ...
Will be good to have template editor, so users can easy create custom templates, most of advanced options must be in template editor, not in generator itself.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted March 09, 2011 03:29 PM |
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Quote:
For multiplayer will be good to have option to lock RMG map. This will prevent map study in map editor.
<IMO> You need to add this idea to the editor wish-list too. It could be an "option" when making a map as well. I would not use this often but I am working on a difficult access map right now and I would use it for this map.
edit= One thing though, we can't have the new RMG do that H3-RMG thing with 147 scrolls and not be able to get rid of them<L>
@Jabanoss
Great work! I had not seen this thread.
Quote:
One problem with a random map that some people might feel could be that they don't like to play maps which they don't know, to time after time always having to discover the map, when you instead want to focus on other things.
You need an "altermap-function-button" where it takes a map you know and moves things about a bit.
@DoubleDeck
Quote:
The greatest thing about RMG is the re-playability. I don't think I have put in more hours in any other game than Heroes!
Exactly how I feel about both the RMG and the Editor. and me too about the "hours" er, hmmm...months
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"Do your own research"
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted March 09, 2011 07:25 PM |
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Quote:
Great work! I had not seen this thread.
Oh but I believe you have, seeing how you have a post on the first page.
Yeah I will add the "lock map" option to the list, as it's an awesome idea. Good work Infinitus.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted March 10, 2011 05:28 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Great work! I had not seen this thread.
Oh but I believe you have, seeing how you have a post on the first page.
True, I'm still learning to communicate; I meant your resurrection spell used on the thread and the additions to follow
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah I will add the "lock map" option to the list, as it's an awesome idea.
<imo>You should post your complete list at the Dev. site. Could be worth it down the road. <fingers-crossed>
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"Do your own research"
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted March 10, 2011 07:56 PM |
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Quote:
<imo>You should post your complete list at the Dev. site. Could be worth it down the road. <fingers-crossed>
This forum is good too, developers know about HC.
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rootsrocka
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 11, 2011 01:49 AM |
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I just created this account to agree with this thread. RMG IS A MUST FOR THIS GAME!!!
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