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| Thread: Is war evil? And if so, is it nesscissary? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 06, 2011 11:01 PM |
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I'm not quite sure what you want to say, bixie. Roman Right is still a pillar of even our world. Democracy is a greek invention - although their idea of who actually was part of the demos was a bit different from ours.
Anyway - I didn't want to advertise the right of the strongest. On the contrary. Human progress is great. But it's got nothing to do with NATURAL rights. Rights are something very human, and something humans can be proud of.
See, if it was for humans, Adam and Eve would have had the right to be defended by a lawyer.
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blizzardboy
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posted February 07, 2011 02:30 AM |
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I looked. No, it can't be proven, and it doesn't matter what conservatives or anyone else may believe.
Vikings.
Mongoles.
Plundering, killing, raping - the natural right of the strongest. And if you look at nature you will see that nature doesn't care much about rights except that of the strongest.
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you missed out the romans, the english, the greeks, the english, the egyptians, the english, the sumerians, the english, the french, the english, the americans, the english, the chinese, the english, the japanese, the english, the indians, the english, the aztecs, the english, the germans, the english, the russians, the english, the huns, the english, the celts, the english, the hootoos, the english, the tootsis, the english, the Afrikaans, the english, the masai... actually, pretty much every civilisation on the planet that has made history has followed this rule. That and cultural degredation and enforcement.
'Natural rights' can be a misleading term, though I do agree with the general idea of it. Rights are 'natural' (though a better would be 'entitled') in the sense that it's something all people should have because it's naturally a good idea. Government should be built up around philosophy rather than philosophy around government. In the academic and ethical context, it is good or 'best' for everybody that people have those rights, so government needs to measure up to that philosophical standard. Government is the enforcer of those pre-existing entitlements.
In a scenario where philosophy is built around government rather than the opposite, you have, for example, the justification of the nobility ruling over the mainstream population. The nobles were originally aristocrats that took lands through military might, and then that power carried on through inheritance. Philosophically, this is a very moronic way of mandating who gets to govern, but it was justified through the idea that those people are 'noble' and have an inborn superiority to serfs. There was a government system and then they created a philosophy around it. When government is built around philosophy, you design a system according to what is the best idea, which ushered in the idea of a legislature.
I might take it a step further and say that those rights are indeed natural as well. Humans are not lone predators that meet once a year to have sex and then go our separate ways; we're social creatures, much like wolves. There is a natural inclination to protect our own kind and to ensure each other's security and well-being. We desire to feel like we belong and to share in each other's company. We are biologically altruistic. Obviously this inclination is imperfectly embedded in us, but it exists just the same.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 07, 2011 07:42 AM |
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Blizz, you miss the point.
If it's a philosophy - around which government is built -, first thing is that it's a HUMAN idea. Second thing, all people must agree with it. Third thing, is that there may be different ideas about which rights humans should have inherently, and fourth thing is that not all people necessarily have the same rights.
For example, there seems to be sort of a confusion of whether humans have a natural right to DIE (that is, decide when to die).
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gnomes2169
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posted February 07, 2011 08:17 AM |
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The last major choice a person can make in their life is how, when, where and by who's hand they die... If they try to take control of their own fate. If said person were to just let life pass them by and let chance control them, then said person would have no say in how they would die. It would be beyond his/ her control.
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LionoftheNorth
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posted February 07, 2011 08:17 PM |
- penalty applied by VokialBG on 13 Aug 2011. |
Edited by Corribus at 07:07, 14 Aug 2011.
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All those cultures mentioned had "special rules" for stealing and killing, it could be prohibited in raids, sacrifices, games or when the ones denied their natural rights where considered less than human. All cultures have tried to limit things that goes against the human nature, in one way or another, but it was the western civilisation with it's judeo-christian view of man that formulated the natural law as a basis for it's laws.
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I would really like you to talk to the recent "victims" of the regimes (such as oh-so-murderous Iraq) and ask them whether they even WANTED their "liberation". And whether life is better now. And were deaths of their loved ones a price good enough to pay for the pitiful "freedom" the war brought to them.
You seem like a guy who throws high moral/ideological-excuses for crime (such as every war is) while sitting home safe in front of an expensive PC surrounded by a loving family, safe and happy. No offense. I don't mean to offend you, merely to point out that you're pretty biased.
I do know quite a few Chaldčan Christians from Iraq. I also know what they feel when they even can't be safe from muslim opsession here in a democratic western European country I live in, as our country happily accepts everyone who wants to live here, even without demanding them to assimilate and adopt our values. 
Actually my PC is neither expensive or modern. I only got a Vista. I am also into politics, which hasn't always made me "safe and happy". 
MOD NOTE: Penalty applied for unauthorized posting by a previously banned member.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 07, 2011 10:34 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 22:37, 07 Feb 2011.
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I'm not quite sure what you want to say, bixie. Roman Right is still a pillar of even our world. Democracy is a greek invention - although their idea of who actually was part of the demos was a bit different from ours.
basically, what I am saying is that trampling "Natural rights" in terms of rape and pillage and killing is something that everyone did in abundance. there has been no society in the history of human civilisation that hasn't done unspeakable acts of barbarism and savagery in the name of progress.
Hell most of the civilisations mentioned have committed genocide in one form or another in the name of progress and a greater society. really, any form of "We're better than them," goes out the window when you realise that actually, all societies are guilty of this, and that trying to wipe your history clean of it is about as disrespectful to your nation as you could possibly be.
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moonlith
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posted February 07, 2011 11:11 PM |
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Edited by moonlith at 23:14, 07 Feb 2011.
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I do know quite a few Chaldčan Christians from Iraq. I also know what they feel when they even can't be safe from muslim opsession here in a democratic western European country I live in, as our country happily accepts everyone who wants to live here, even without demanding them to assimilate and adopt our values.
Actually my PC is neither expensive or modern. I only got a Vista. I am also into politics, which hasn't always made me "safe and happy".
Oh christ, you're not from the Netherlands are you? Because we have a lot of those morons here who whine about muslim oppression even though it's Dutch organisations that essentially accept their "demands" in the name of "tolerance". Because they believe that accepting their demands and abandoning their own values is a good step in the direction of a multi-cultural society.
Point is it's not Muslims enforcing their "oppression", it's stupid Dutch folks accepting them.
But I'm starting to form a picture of you as one who generalizes Muslims under a single banner. Scary folks they are, aren't they? Perhaps it was a good thing the US bombed Iraq! Oh wait, there are people who actually believe that.
Gotta love that picture Blizzard posted.
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gnomes2169
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posted February 08, 2011 05:10 AM |
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... I'm not sure where the US comes in the game of defining if all war is evil, but OK... 
Same with democracy. Sure, ti may be a cause of war, but, well, how does it make war evil?
Still, good debate!  Let the thread evolve if it must.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 08, 2011 09:04 AM |
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I'm not quite sure what you want to say, bixie. Roman Right is still a pillar of even our world. Democracy is a greek invention - although their idea of who actually was part of the demos was a bit different from ours.
basically, what I am saying is that trampling "Natural rights" in terms of rape and pillage and killing is something that everyone did in abundance. there has been no society in the history of human civilisation that hasn't done unspeakable acts of barbarism and savagery in the name of progress.
Hell most of the civilisations mentioned have committed genocide in one form or another in the name of progress and a greater society. really, any form of "We're better than them," goes out the window when you realise that actually, all societies are guilty of this, and that trying to wipe your history clean of it is about as disrespectful to your nation as you could possibly be.
Bixie, don't you see that all have been following the "natural right of the strongest"? The difference is, MOST - those you named - developed an alternative for WITHIN their own society, most notably the Romans, who developed the law of the 12 tables already in 450 B.C. - basically the foundation of the whole Western law system -, with the exxplicit aim to offer more protection to the poor.
However, to the OUTSIDE they presented the "natural law of the strongest".
There have been others, though, Vikings and Mongoles, for examples, who had the natural right of the strongest within as well. A lot simply depended on your skill and prowess as a warrior, and no matter what, you could always prove yourself in a duel.
However, the actual point is - there are no "natural rights", because life doesn't get any gifts EXCEPT life, and that's no right, but only a fact, once you have it. Every right humans postulate for themselves is a human construction and founded on mutual agreement, the law and a working law enforcement.
In fact, IF you - not you specifically - are intent on somehow clinging to natural rights, then, looking back, you'll see, that this would be the right of the strongest, that is in effect "naturally", but that humans, upon starting to live in groups or "societies" have worked to COUNTER that natural right.
What has developed to "the Bill of human rights" is just the human counterdraft to the natural right of the strongest - it's basically the exact opposite of natural rights.
That humans have tried to strengthen their authority by CLAIMING they would be "narural" or "godgiven" rights, doesn't change that because it's just a claim.
Also natural rights have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. The ideas are fairly new. The Greeks have speculated about them, philosophically, but after Christ's birth, even when the Christian religion became the dominating doctrine in the whole of Europe, nothing of that sort happened - on the contrary. Under Christian rule we had the natural BIRTH right in effect, and it took over 1000 years of living under that, and changes in the basic structures of economy and society, before the idea of natural human rights was discussed again - with the added catch, that you still had to define who's a human and who's not, as pervert that may sound
The bottom line is: no, there is nothing out there that will help us humans to develop and to better, and there is nothing to anchor things at, except ourselves. we may need crutches to stumble along on the way, but everything we've managed so far is HUMAN based - in good as well as in bad.
And as a last thought, if people wonder (now) why "progress" is or have been so slow, why there has been so much war and strife and savagery and still is - think back and try to imagine how it was, how absolutely FRAGILE life was in the past. How much more children/mothers would already die at birth; how many people would die from simple illnesses, wounds, natural disasters, famine, floods, accidents, how much less a life was worth THEREFORE. If you can die at every moment - not from the unlikely chance of having a heart attack with 46, but from all kinds of things like a rat or dog bite, being run over from a cart, having an accident with a mill stone and so on - a life doesn't count for much. Also people have much less to lose.
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Fauch
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posted February 11, 2011 05:58 PM |
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... I'm not sure where the US comes in the game of defining if all war is evil, but OK...
the US justify the wars they start by saying that it's God's will.
the problem is their enemies probably often justify it the same way... it's not like in movies, there isn't a good and a bad side. the good side is yours and the bad side the one you are fighting, so each side is both good and bad lol.
of course, that's completely silly, but that doesn't stop people who starts wars from believing in what they claim. 
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Same with democracy. Sure, ti may be a cause of war, but, well, how does it make war evil?
what do you understand by democracy? then again, it's completely silly, they say democracy is freedom and they want to impose it by the force (though, imposing something necessarily implies violence)
how is that freedom, then?
and people who praise democracy may forget that Hitler was elected democratically.
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gnomes2169
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posted February 11, 2011 09:50 PM |
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... I'm not sure where the US comes in the game of defining if all war is evil, but OK...
the US justify the wars they start by saying that it's God's will.
the problem is their enemies probably often justify it the same way... it's not like in movies, there isn't a good and a bad side. the good side is yours and the bad side the one you are fighting, so each side is both good and bad lol.
of course, that's completely silly, but that doesn't stop people who starts wars from believing in what they claim.
What about the wars that happened, oh, I don't know, 1200+ years before the US existed? You can blame them, I guess, I mean, we do have allot of time-space rift generators just laying around in the street
And unless by God you mean money and econimic interests, I'm going to have to ask you if you are looking at the right country.
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Same with democracy. Sure, ti may be a cause of war, but, well, how does it make war evil?
what do you understand by democracy? then again, it's completely silly, they say democracy is freedom and they want to impose it by the force (though, imposing something necessarily implies violence)
how is that freedom, then?
Alright, live in a country where you don't have the right to, say talk to anyone from a different country. Hello, North Korea... Please, bash democracy not, or I will bash socialism. We bot have entirely to much ammo for either of us to walk away without a few - QP's...
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and people who praise democracy may forget that Hitler was elected democratically.
Yes, he was elected democratically in a country that he dragged out of the worst economic depression that any country still around today has survived. The Germans at this time hated everyone, and for a good reason. They had to pay for all of World War 1. Whoudn't anyone try to find someone to blame if they had nothing after they had had whatever they wanted? Wouldn't someone who lost everything lash out at the closest person to them? That's what Hitler played on, not the democratic system, which he destroyed after he was elected, BTW, but people's stupidity and rage.
Again, try not to drag Hitler into here... It makes for a very dead argument because everyone rage quits.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
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mvassilev
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posted February 12, 2011 01:44 AM |
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a country that he dragged out of the worst economic depression that any country still around today has survived
Did he?
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That's what Hitler played on, not the democratic system
He used the democratic system to get elected. Of course he played it.
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Fauch
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posted February 12, 2011 02:04 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 02:14, 12 Feb 2011.
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And unless by God you mean money and econimic interests, I'm going to have to ask you if you are looking at the right country.
maybe I remember wrong, but I think Bush mentionned God several times to justify his wars
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Alright, live in a country where you don't have the right to, say talk to anyone from a different country. Hello, North Korea... Please, bash democracy not, or I will bash socialism.
lol, you can bash socialism if you want, though, democracy might actually be a good thing, at a local level, where you can be in contact and discuss with the people you elected.
but what I was saying is that you don't impose something to people because you think it's better for them. it usually ends in a bloodbath, and you just make things worse.
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Yes, he was elected democratically in a country that he dragged out of the worst economic depression that any country still around today has survived.
great, I do not see many people praising him for that
people don't care about economic depressions, they just want to live decently. well, maybe it wasn't true at that time.
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gnomes2169
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posted February 12, 2011 06:28 AM |
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great, I do not see many people praising him for that
people don't care about economic depressions, they just want to live decently. well, maybe it wasn't true at that time.
People, after one or two influencing speeches, wanted a bloodbath. Hitler only added economics to it to sweeten the deal.
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Alright, live in a country where you don't have the right to, say talk to anyone from a different country. Hello, North Korea... Please, bash democracy not, or I will bash socialism.
lol, you can bash socialism if you want, though, democracy might actually be a good thing, at a local level, where you can be in contact and discuss with the people you elected.
but what I was saying is that you don't impose something to people because you think it's better for them. it usually ends in a bloodbath, and you just make things worse.
Wow, and now I realize that I read the original question wrong.
Yep, government of all kinds have vied for power and murdered many many innocents throughout the years. All forms of government, not just democracy. (BTW, the US is a Representative Democracy (aka, Republic)) This voice just happens to be the loudest at our current time period.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
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Shyranis
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posted February 15, 2011 12:13 AM |
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(BTW, the US is a Representative Democracy (aka, Republic)) This voice just happens to be the loudest at our current time period.
Meaning Rome, not Athens.
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gnomes2169
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posted February 15, 2011 07:30 AM |
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(BTW, the US is a Representative Democracy (aka, Republic)) This voice just happens to be the loudest at our current time period.
Meaning Rome, not Athens.
Pretty much
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted March 06, 2012 05:53 PM |
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With recent discussions I'd like to reopen this thread and share my embryo-like knowledge with a bunch of strangers.
War
War. I have to agree with Gnomes, since he has put it so marvelously well, war is chaos that brings order (and purpose) upon the complacent and lazy, it cuts boring lives short in blazing glory. War is bitter sweet, for those who reap, but bled not in the sowing. Their stone hearts were forged to rule, and their hearts beat to a cold tune. Why are such people in the position of power? Because their the only ones with the will that can make or break a nation.
Brings tears to thine eyes when a pleb places himself in the shoes of the great men in power; thinks that he can think himself worthy enough to judge the deeds of his betters. Democracy is like the average western household, children rebelling against the authority of their elders. As I said before, everything in this world is good, all you have to do is look at it with the right eyes.  And that mentlegen, is my personal 2 cents, take it for what it is.
Edit: Just a caustionary edit, when I speak of leaders, in my head I try not include the namby pambies of our current generation. 
Except Bush.
Just a question to finish off, in what way is the avarage man/woman qualified to identify a good leader?
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted March 06, 2012 07:14 PM |
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Well done Tsar, you summed up my thoughts pretty well. Let me add a quote;
"Some of you young men think that war is all glamour and glory,
but let me tell you, boys, it is all hell!"
-General William T. Sherman
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Galileo
Known Hero
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posted June 19, 2012 01:41 PM |
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War is, by my opinion, a test for humankind. Today, we have weapons which can bring massive massacre, maybe even death to humankind. Now, if we want to prove we are the the best product of evolution, we'll solve all problems by diplomacy. If we won't, we'll start war and destroy the humankind. That's like evolution - if humanty won't be wise enough, we'll be extinct.
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DagothGares
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posted June 19, 2012 10:20 PM |
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War is an admission of failure.
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