|
| Thread: Flag burning at LSU... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:27 AM |
|
Edited by smithey at 01:32, 14 May 2011.
|
1. Nobody doesn't even know she has witnessed him being jumped
2. According to the law in the USA, she can't be prosecuted for that, there was an actual case where the entire street witnessed a murder but everybody assumed someone else will call the cops, girl screamed for twenty minutes before she was killed, while people who didn't care just like mvassilev did nothing, can't recall the exact name for that behavior though, it's something like - edit : “bystander effect,”
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:30 AM |
|
|
Quote:
But most people's actions don't have an effect on me in any way I could have influenced. If it's a family member, friend, teacher, boss, coworker, or government employee, it affects me. Otherwise, it doesn't. How does Derpina from down the street affect me? She affects me as much as I affect her: not at all. The only people whose actions have an effect on me AND my actions have an effect on are either people I personally value or those in positions of authority. Others can affect me through actions I can't influence before they do it.
That's a rather myopic way to look at things. For one thing, it neglects the future. For another, it neglects ripple effects.
For the most part, you're right that most people probably won't affect you. But insofar as the future is impossible to predict, and nobody lives in a bubble, you're really just playing the odds.
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
2. According to the law in the USA, she can't be prosecuted for that, there was an actual case where the entire street witnessed a murder but everybody assumed someone else will call the cops, girl screamed for twenty minutes before she was killed, while people who didn't care just like mvassilev did nothing, can't recall the exact name for that behavior though, it's something like - shared responsibility....
I thought the case of Kitty Genovese was widely discredited. Though, I have shady sources. Where are yours?
And it's the bystander-effect you're probably referencing.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:38 AM |
|
Edited by smithey at 01:39, 14 May 2011.
|
I can look for it but I don't really want to spend to much time on it, here's the first thing that showed in google
gang rape
Didn't read it all but scrolled it down, it sasy something about it being a grey area, which means not against the law.
edit : The law is ambiguous. In some jurisdictions, if a witness encourages the illegal act, he can be held just as responsible as the person who committed the physical crime. But failing to report the crime — out of fear or groupthink or any other reason — remains a gray area, with different jurisdictions differing on the legal responsibility of witnesses.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:39 AM |
|
|
smithey:
You're assuming that being nice has something to do with compassion, which is not at all necessary. It doesn't take much effort to be nice, and it generally improves other people's attitudes towards you, so why not be nice? There are more important concerns than what strangers think of you, but when you can influence their attitude at little cost, it's to your advantage to do it. Compassion doesn't enter into it anywhere. You can be nice to people you don't care about.
Well, I say being nice has a low cost, and it generally does, but there are cases in which not offending strangers is relatively unimportant. It's one thing to have "being nice" marginally affect your life - saying "hi', smiling, and so on - but another to have it prevent you from doing something more important. If Derpina feels offended by flag-burning or a Muslim community center near Ground Zero, too bad for her. I have neighbors who aren't idiots, I hope, and if I don't, I'll just have to live with their displeasure. I'll take that chance and your ridiculous hypothetical situation.
Corribus:
Those are favorable odds.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 01:50 AM |
|
|
LOL... Don't care about others, offend strangers whenever, stay stubborn, believe you're always right and live by your favorable chances, good for you 
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 02:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Because you don't live in an isolated universe where other people's actions have no effect on you.
But most people's actions don't have an effect on me in any way I could have influenced. If it's a family member, friend, teacher, boss, coworker, or government employee, it affects me. Otherwise, it doesn't. How does Derpina from down the street affect me? She affects me as much as I affect her: not at all. The only people whose actions have an effect on me AND my actions have an effect on are either people I personally value or those in positions of authority. Others can affect me through actions I can't influence before they do it.
A butterfly flapping its wings in a foreign solar system has an effect on the orbit of the Earth.
There is no such thing as an action that doesn't have some sort of an effect on everybody else, however minute that effect may be. Flag burning, through rightfully legal, is an immature means of a person expressing themselves, which contributes to unnecessary conflict, which contributes to an overall less pleasant society to exist in. Likewise, you can have an effect on its acceptability, however minute that effect may be. It may be as simple as stating in a conversation why you think flag burning is a bad idea. When 200 million different people state something to that effect in conversations, it will have an effect. In short, you don't really need to invest your time and energy to it at all in order for you to have an effect; you merely need to display your disfavor with it when and if it is brought up, which is something you would naturally be inclined to do anyway.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 12:23 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 12:25, 14 May 2011.
|
A large part of this discussion is ridiculous. There are so many ways to offend someone and very often your behaviour is offensive and you can't even realize it. Different people, different cultures, different beliefs and stereotypes, different everything. There is no universal standard for being "nice", except maybe to try to understand the person in front of you. Which is not easy at all, could take a lot of time and is and not always possible. Most people act in accordance with their own understanding of how the things work and very often try to intrude it to the others, more of less firmly believing in their impeccability. I don't think I make an exception myself.
Moreover, trying to be compassionate towards everybody is an utter nonsense. There are over 6 billion people on this planet and one knows much less than 1% of them. Even if we don't count the everyday fact that there is absolutely no way to have the same feelings for all the people around you - even and especially if you know them well - this "compassion" is an exhaustion of emotional energy which is limited for every human being. You can feel compassion until the point when you run dry and don't care any more, even if this is the only feeling that you can have - which again has nothing to do with the reality. In quite many cases this compassion is pure hypocrisy, not to mention that it is being exploited by all kinds of speculators on daily basis.
|
|
Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 03:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
LOL... Don't care about others, offend strangers whenever, stay stubborn, believe you're always right and live by your favorable chances, good for you
I find this discussion amusing.
Though,being nice and compassion are different things,as stated before.
I once saw a documentary about compassion and the bystander effect.
It was quite interesting that even a priest student,who is taught to be compassionate,did not help a man coughing and lying at the chuch's floor.That man was a test subject,later on he went to ask the student as why he did not help."He was too busy concentrating or holding thoughts about the bible"
Being selfish is not bad.It might offend some people though ultimately,in the long run,the selfish benefit more.
Burning a flag,objectively is ridiculous,subjectively is screaming for hate and dissent.
Same goes for burning of quran or the bible.It acomplishes nothing but vandalism and hate.
Burning of public symbols is a shining sign of barbaric human nature,something that depresses me a bit.
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 04:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
You still haven't made a single argument as to why we should care.
Because you don't live in an isolated universe where other people's actions have no effect on you.
I cut my nails today! Pleaes care!!
It's just an item, which he himself owns. I don't see the big deal.
|
|
smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
|
|
posted May 14, 2011 11:54 PM |
|
|
LOL... you guys went off the reservation with this one, the point was simple - burning a flag/quran/bible serves no positive purpose yet it is offensive to some people, I don't know why they find it offensive nor do I care but if my neighbor, friend, countrymen asks me to not burn the quran/flag/bible, I won't burn it out of respect, not because I understand him, not because I agree with him but simply because if it's offensive to him, why would I harm him ? If it were something important like saving a baby even though it's against someone's religious views I would say snow your religion I'm saving the baby but when it comes to burning a flag/quran/bible... what is positive in that act ?
Do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you that's all I said...
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted May 15, 2011 12:11 AM |
|
|
Do no do to others what you would not want others to do to you if you were in their situation.
I think that's a better guideline, keeps the masochists from hurting people 
Personally I think the whole flagburning thing is kinda ridiculous... and if you get agitated by it you're kinda silly as well.
I mean, I get the whole symbolism, but it's still just an idiot burning a piece of fabric. Laugh at him instead 
____________
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 15, 2011 12:18 AM |
|
Edited by Azagal at 00:20, 15 May 2011.
|
Quote:
Someone tries to burn a flag?
*Yawn*
Seriously why does some people care about symbols and flags so much...? :/
You've really answered your own question. As you know symbols represent something and if people burn something that represents something other people feel strongly about they have every right to be upset. It's not "just" a piece of cloth like Ad says then these guys could burn toiletpaper. Obviously they do it to insult people. So if you tell them to "chill" you're basically telling them not to get so worked about someone insulting something they hold dear. Now that may in fact be good advice but be sure to give it for the right reasons not because "it's just a flag".
Oh and smithey I see you've had your first fire baptisment with mvass. He's like that almost everywhere and his attitude doesn't change much he's got about as much passion for his fellow man as dead cow in underneath the north pole. He likes to live in his bubble telling him what life's really like usually isn't worth the hassle.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted May 15, 2011 12:20 AM |
|
|
I'm not saying that people shouldn't care, I'm saying that the best way of fighting this kinda stuff is laughing at it
____________
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 15, 2011 12:21 AM |
|
|
That's exactly what I said you said. I'm just saying you should say that for the right reasons.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
|
|
posted May 15, 2011 01:07 AM |
|
Edited by Jabanoss at 01:10, 15 May 2011.
|
Let's just say I don't care for symbols very much. It's totally up to each individual to be offended from whatever, I just think some people sometimes should remind themselves that it actually just is a piece of cloth.
But wait a minute, do you really mean this Jaba?
Well mostly I guess, but yeah on the other hand, when symbols are threatened it might actually mean that there is a need to be cautious. That something that we hold dear might be in risk of being damaged.
If someone unhindered attacks an American flag, it might lead them to believe that the values of America itself can freely be attacked. So whenever symbols are attacked, it would be wise to react or be vigilant.
I'm just trying to say is that, destroying or attacking a symbol is not the same as destroying or attacking what it represent, but it might be a good idea to be watchful and ready to protect the values of the symbol.
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 16, 2011 12:00 AM |
|
|
On one hand, the flag is a piece of cloth, but on the other hand, it's a symbol. You don't see people protesting the US by burning pillowcases. It's important because both the burners and the anti-burners think the flag represents something (or at least the anti-burners do). So while personally ignoring the symbol is good, the fact that other people treat it as a symbol can't be ignored.
It's hard to get rid of a symbol or context while acknowledging that other people hold that symbol or context. This issue also reminds me of racism. The best way to destroy racism is to destroy the concept of race. On the other hand, it's nearly impossible to do that while knowing that others acknowledge it, because then you have to hold that concept.
smithey:
Quote:
why would I harm him ?
Offending someone isn't harming them. If you hit someone, steal their stuff, or defraud them, you're harming them. When you're doing something to yourself or your own property, you aren't.
Also, I see you've met Azagal. He likes to badmouth me. He doesn't like me because me being right threatens his world view, and he doesn't want to bother actually pointing out where I'm wrong (if anywhere).
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted May 16, 2011 12:06 AM |
|
|
Lol mvass, you don't have to hit someone to harm them. You can harm people mentally. You call someone fat that is very picky about their weight and you go see how that doesn't harm them. I don't see a problem with burning a Flag but I can understand why it'd hurt somebody. A lot of people are patriotic no matter what country they are in. It means a great deal to them. They love their country, they love the people, they love the culture and so on and for somebody to destroy something that symbolises something that means a great deal to them then that's where you have to draw the line. If you can't see that then you have problems.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 16, 2011 12:11 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Lol mvass, you don't have to hit someone to harm them. You can harm people mentally. You call someone fat that is very picky about their weight and you go see how that doesn't harm them.
Look at it objectively. They're not being harmed. Just because they don't like what you're doing doesn't mean you're harming them. There's more to harm than personal preference. Yes, it's mean/insensitive/etc to do what you describe - but that's not the same thing as harm, except in imprecise colloquial language.
(Which brings me to the tangent that often language is too imprecise and concepts too vague for reasonable debate.)
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 16, 2011 03:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Lol mvass, you don't have to hit someone to harm them. You can harm people mentally. You call someone fat that is very picky about their weight and you go see how that doesn't harm them.
There is such a thing as freedom of speech. There is no right to keep someone from saying something that you find offensive. Trying to regulate speech in the name of political correctness is very dangerous to freedom.
____________
Revelation
|
| |
|
|
