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| Thread: Flag burning at LSU... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted May 16, 2011 03:56 PM |
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I'm all for Freedom of Speech but I know when to shut up and when to speak. I know when I'm crossing the line and when I'm not. Maybe it'd help out greatly if others could also see that and not just say every little thing that we want because that becomes a problem. There's a lot I could say to certain people but I don't because I don't want to offend them. Why don't I want to offend them? Because I'm a normal human being and I actually don't like hurting people's feelings nor try to bash what they believe in. If you do not see the problem in that then you have problems.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 16, 2011 04:03 PM |
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Quote:
mvASSilev lives his life, doesn't care about others, each day on his way to school he passes by his neighbor Derpina, he never says hi because, well he doesn't really care about her... five years have passed, mvASSilev has been to a party it's late and he's coming home, out of nowhere two dudes jump him, mug him, stab him and leave him bleeding on the asphalt, Darpina saw him being jumped, realized it's the lame kid who never even bothered to say hello, she went back to watch her fav tv show because she didn't care... mvASSilev died on the street after bleeding out for hours.
mvassilev lives his life, he's a nice guy who cares about others and always tries to help out, he's known as a well mannered polite kid on his block, each day on his way to school he passes by his neighbor Derpina, he always says hi with a smile because that's just how he is... five years have passed, mvassilev has been to a party it's late and he's coming home, out of nowhere two dudes jump him, mug him, stab him and leave him bleeding on the asphalt, Darpina saw him being jumped, realized it's mvassilev, started screaming through the window and called 911, mvassilev continued to live a long life, when he went to Darpina to thank her for saving his life, she just shrugged it off saying it was my pleasure....
Scanrio 1: Albert Fish kills, rapes and eats kids for the **** of it. Albert Fish gets caught and sentenced to life. Albert Fish dies on electrical chair.
Scenario 2: Albert Fish kills, rapes and eats kids for the **** of it. Albert Fish gets caught and sentenced to life. However the executioner feels pity and lets him escape. Then Fish gets banged in the head during his hasty retreat and suddenly he becomes a philanthropic genius. 10 years later he discovers cure for cancer, 30 years later he discovers a drug that makes humans immortal. Humanity flourishes and there's never another war.
According to your logic, that means Albert Fish should indeed be let go because there MIGHT be a chance of him doing something awesome in his life.
Guess that explains why we shouldn't justify anything with stories exaggerated to the point of absurd what-ifs, should we, Smithey?
It doesn't matter two bits whether Mvass is nice to Derpina or not. The chance of her having any impact on his life is next to none if he doesn't care for her and is not interested in befriending her.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2011 05:22 PM |
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william:
I understand what you're saying and I agree. Just because we have freedom of speech doesn't mean we should say whatever we want whenever.
But offense isn't harm.
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Eccentric Opinion
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted May 16, 2011 06:18 PM |
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It can be depending on what is said. Harm isn't just physical you know?
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 16, 2011 06:30 PM |
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That's exactly Mvass.
He'll argue for something but also agree with the points against it.
Ah Mvass, I remember you advocating the free market as a solution for most things, but also saying that progressive taxes have their place as well.
It's good that you don't just tack into one little area. Keeps you interesting.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted May 17, 2011 01:30 PM |
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Edited by Smithey at 13:31, 17 May 2011.
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@Doomf
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Scanrio 1: Albert Fish kills, rapes and eats kids for the **** of it. Albert Fish gets caught and sentenced to life. Albert Fish dies on electrical chair.
Scenario 2: Albert Fish kills, rapes and eats kids for the **** of it. Albert Fish gets caught and sentenced to life. However the executioner feels pity and lets him escape. Then Fish gets banged in the head during his hasty retreat and suddenly he becomes a philanthropic genius. 10 years later he discovers cure for cancer, 30 years later he discovers a drug that makes humans immortal. Humanity flourishes and there's never another war.
According to your logic, that means Albert Fish should indeed be let go because there MIGHT be a chance of him doing something awesome in his life.
Guess that explains why we shouldn't justify anything with stories exaggerated to the point of absurd what-ifs, should we, Smithey?
It doesn't matter two bits whether Mvass is nice to Derpina or not. The chance of her having any impact on his life is next to none if he doesn't care for her and is not interested in befriending her.
Above the exaggerated hypothetical stories there was a sentence stating "Here is a nice story for you and maybe you will understand the point, but then again maybe you won't..."
Stories are there just as a funny way of delivering the message, stories are irrelevant, the point is what is important and the point was that none of us can't possibly know what the future brings hence treat people with respect and you increase your chances of being treated in the same manner 
DoomF, is it legal to burn the quran on national TV ? hell yes it is but if you think that your actions won't have any consequences you are delusional, whether it's some muslim spitting on you, or some fanatic deciding to teach you a lesson, or some girl who doesn't like haters, or just someone like me who works in a potential firm and won't let you pass the interview.
When I was living in NY I got laid with girls from other schools just because of a positive feedback, I went through college without ever writting things down because I was perceived as a nice guy and the "girls from the first row" (as we called them) always gave me their notes...no matter where you are, you are constantly being judged by your actions and by what others say about you, if you ever decide to burn the quran or anything else on national TV keep in mind that it will reflect on how you are perceived by others and it will indeed have an impact on your future (even if you are unaware of it)... Offend others, treat others with disrespect and it will come back haunting you in the future, that was the only point of the exaggerated hypothetical story....
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted May 17, 2011 06:53 PM |
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It's funny how first it was about compassion, but now it's about personal gain.
Anyhow, according to some sources, the student didn't intend to burn the flag. Here's part of his speech that he didn't get to read:Quote:
In the name of peace, there will be no flag burning today. This country and the flag that flies over it stands for freedom, democracy, love, peace and the ability to question our government.
The ability to question the government is something even so different people like Gootch and Elodin agree on. You cannot be a true American and be against the freedom of speech. It is above hurting other people's feelings.
On the other hand, according to what I've read, it seems his cause wasn't so just after all: the other student he was trying to defend hadn't been arrested only for burning a flag but stealing a car and the flag.
Ah, shades of grey...
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 17, 2011 07:08 PM |
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It's not just about preserving the flow of ideas (which is the heart of free speech); if somebody hurts your feelings through words, then it's your fault as much as it is theirs. What we allow to harm our ego is more controllable. It's not right to silence people because a certain individual can't keep their irrational vanity in check.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 17, 2011 07:08 PM |
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DoomF, is it legal to burn the quran on national TV ? hell yes it is but if you think that your actions won't have any consequences you are delusional, whether it's some muslim spitting on you, or some fanatic deciding to teach you a lesson, or some girl who doesn't like haters, or just someone like me who works in a potential firm and won't let you pass the interview.
You know what this is? cowardice.
Not doing something because of being afraid of the consequences.
If you really feel so strong about some nation that you want to burn its flag, but only fear stops you from doing so, you're a coward.
If what stops you is the realization that this act is simply pointless in total - you're a logical, reasonable person.
Big difference.
What you advocate is that people should halt not because of logic, but because of fear of consequences, and I don't exactly like that reasoning.
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When I was living in NY I got laid with girls from other schools just because of a positive feedback, I went through college without ever writting things down because I was perceived as a nice guy and the "girls from the first row" (as we called them) always gave me their notes...
So you just fooled people into thinking highly of you (that you're a good student, or that you care or that you give two ****s about the girls in the first row). I have no problems with that, it's just another method of getting what you want in life, but it's ultimately nothing to feel superior about and nothing exactly better than other methods.
Quote:
no matter where you are, you are constantly being judged by your actions and by what others say about you, if you ever decide to burn the quran or anything else on national TV keep in mind that it will reflect on how you are perceived by others and it will indeed have an impact on your future (even if you are unaware of it)... Offend others, treat others with disrespect and it will come back haunting you in the future, that was the only point of the exaggerated hypothetical story....
I see little point in giving some "moral" lesson in highly exaggerated moral stories. We're not in kindergarten so that we need some kind of anecdotes to realize what is morality and why is it useful to have it in life. Especially not in form of hyperbole.
Besides, you're playing captain obvious here. I don't see anybody here who doesn't understand the basic rules of action/reaction.
I also don't like the logic behind this. I don't want to oil up someone's butt to get his notes. If I don't care about the person, I'll will just act accordingly (ignore him) and just make up those notes myself, nothing really hard. I don't like greasy hypocrisy in form of acting nice because it might give me some benefit.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 17, 2011 08:57 PM |
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So DF, you won't compliment anyone? Ever? The only thing that you'll say to people is insults and generally cruel lies only crafted to break them down? There is a point to being nice to people and respecting the differences that being raised by certain families and societies. That point is not being deported or imrisoned for disturbing the peace.
I'd say that Smithey's story was meant to be exadurated, since you never know how people will one day affect your life. If you're and evil b****** to eveyone aroud you, you will be treated poorly. If you are nice to the vast majority of people around you, then hey! You have a rather large group of people who would be willing to at least call the ambulence for help and give you first aid if you got mugged and stabbed. 
Let's try a different story, a man named Mr. Gnomes (from the Gnome tribe with 2169 family members in it) goes to work for a year. Every day he slacks of, makes lewd comments and disrespects every member of his work place, but never goes far enough to alow his boss to fire him. When promotions and raises are handed out, Mr. Gnomes gets nothing but a notice that his company will force him to re-apply if he wishes to continue wouking there next year. He goes to his boss and arguest that this treatment was unfair and that he deserves better. His boss, finally fed up with Mr. Gnomes, fires him on the spot.
Now his cousin, on the other hand (Ironically called Mr. Gnomes), was kind, respectful, helpful and over all just a good guy. He is friends or on good terms with most people in the office, and has a nice pleasant family (This detail is unimportant, as we are talking about Mr. Gnomes work life). for a year, everyone's respect and esteem of Gnomes actions raises and then promotion day comes. Mr. Gnomes has one of two things happen to him (his bonous is assured because of his hard work and positive attitude)...
A) He gets a nice bonous and a promotion for being so possitive and for working so hard. The boss is happy with his work. Gnomes finishes off the payments on the pool he bought.
B) His promotion is lost in the mail. Mr. Gnomes, being respectful, decides to wait for it to come to him. One of his friends in the office, tough, does not like it that the boss forgot to send his friend his bonous, which Mr. Gnomes needs to pay off the pool that he just bought. Mr. Gnomes friend goes to their boss and reminds him to send the bonous. If the boss had just forgoten to send it, then it is sent rather quickly and Mr. Gnomes pays off the pool. If it got lost in the mail, Gnomes friends chip in to help him pay for the pool, even if he can't pay them back at the moment.
Is there and advantage to not antagonizing everyone around you?
-Yes.
Is it for selfish reasons?
-Sometimes.
Does that make it bad?
-Only in specific cases.
Does this meant that we shouldn't be nice?
-Do you want to die alone?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted May 17, 2011 09:05 PM |
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Edited by Smithey at 21:11, 17 May 2011.
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@Vlaad, Quote:
It's funny how first it was about compassion, but now it's about personal gain.
The original post was about me stating solely my opinion that both burning symbols and crying for the death of the one doing the burning, are primitive acts and in my eyes an ugly side of humanity.
Compassion is indeed an important virtue (and one related to the original post) in my eyes as I believe in "don't do to others what you don't want to be done to you". I don't claim everybody or anybody should agree with my views, that's just how I see it.
mvass answered something along the lines of "I dont care about others since they have no affect on me" to that I replied with my two silly hypothetical stories, DoomF didn't address the compassion topic but those two stories, if you take a closer look at the post above yours you will indeed see that the last sentence clearly states "that's the point of the two hypothetical stories".
If a person tells me he has no need for compassion and that personal gain is all that interests him I try to reason with him by using examples of personal gain (and I'm not claiming personal gain is all that interests mvass nor am i trying to portray him in a negative way, it's just how I perceived things in this discussion, that's all).
My way of life is "be good to others and they will be good to you" and I don't live by it for some personal gain but simply because that's what I believe in.
I'm not claiming everybody should think like me nor that they should believe what I believe in (that would be a boring world), I just speak my mind and if I have offended anyone then I apologize as that was certainly not my idea especially in a thread such as this one.
I believe my way of life is the correct one however I don't claim that what is correct to me is indeed correct to someone else, there's no right or wrong (universally speaking) just right or wrong (subjectively speaking), if I don't agree with mvass today it doesn't mean I won't agree with him tomorrow on another topic and I hope he sees it in a same manner. 
@ DoomF
Quote:
You know what this is? cowardice.
Not doing something because of being afraid of the consequences.
 totally agree with you here, nicely said
Quote:
If you really feel so strong about some nation that you want to burn its flag, but only fear stops you from doing so, you're a coward.
I would agree with you If I could see something positive in burning the quran/bible/flag, to me it's just not a positive act, to me if someone feels strongly about something like that then something isn't right with him and I'm saying that only from my subjective point of view, I don't get that act at all, maybe I'm narrow minded but that's how I feel...
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If what stops you is the realization that this act is simply pointless in total - you're a logical, reasonable person.
Big difference.
Once again
Quote:
What you advocate is that people should halt not because of logic, but because of fear of consequences, and I don't exactly like that reasoning.
I didn't claim that.
On the first or the second page I claimed the opposite myself (something along these lines) "If I can choose to not offend someone I will do my best to do so and respect his ways, however if it comes down to saving a baby or following someone's religion (some religions forbid the use of modern medicine) I will without a doubt say F* your religion and will do whatever I can to save the baby because some things are worth fighting for (just as you believe), saving a life trumps offending someone in my eyes, burning the bible just doesn't since it's a negative hateful act IMO.
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So you just fooled people into thinking highly of you (that you're a good student, or that you care or that you give two ****s about the girls in the first row). I have no problems with that, it's just another method of getting what you want in life, but it's ultimately nothing to feel superior about and nothing exactly better than other methods.
Haven't fooled anyone into anything , I was nice to those girls even when I didn't need anything from them, when I needed help they were glad to offer it in a same manner I would offer them mine with whatever they might need, When I can help someone out I do it because, well why wouldn't I help ? To me it's way easier to give than to receive....
Quote:
I see little point in giving some "moral" lesson in highly exaggerated moral stories. We're not in kindergarten so that we need some kind of anecdotes to realize what is morality and why is it useful to have it in life. Especially not in form of hyperbole.
It wasn't really a "moral" lesson and I find stories to be more fun, but respect your view, I didn't mean it to come off as patronizing but merely as more fun, if it came out the wrong way, sorry
Quote:
Besides, you're playing captain obvious here. I don't see anybody here who doesn't understand the basic rules of action/reaction.
 It wasn't obvious to mvass because after all he stated "offending people I don't know can have no effect on me" that's why I was the captain, but you can be the general if you want to
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I also don't like the logic behind this. I don't want to oil up someone's butt to get his notes. If I don't care about the person, I'll will just act accordingly (ignore him) and just make up those notes myself, nothing really hard. I don't like greasy hypocrisy in form of acting nice because it might give me some benefit.
Never said you should be hypocritical, I merely said that I'm a nice person in general and that people treated me in a same manner because of that, I never said I'm being nice to others so I can get things for free, that's... well just not cool IMO
In any case, on my side of the screen I see this as a friendly conversation, since vibe isn't always felt over the internet if I'm offending anyone, you just say so because that's not what I'm trying to do....
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted May 17, 2011 09:19 PM |
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@ gnomes2169 LOL Even though some won't I certainly enjoyed the story and the statements that followed it....
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