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| Thread: Good people come in all colors and shapes... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 23, 2011 03:31 PM |
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nice story Markkur 
Thanks for the Insanity
Hmmm, we've met before Sorry bad joke.
About the story, It's the real deal. I changed names and towns to protect and all that but it was indeed a true adventure.
Had anything like it yourself?
I like this old adage; "A stranger is a friend unknown." Wish it were always true but I imagine it is still usually correct
Make it great!
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"Do your own research"
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 03:58 PM |
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Like the founding fathers, I believe in CHARITY (a person of his own free will helping someone else.) I don't believe in the government stealing money from person and giving it to another person.
Great. I believe in charity of warfare. You should be able to declare whether you want to donate cash to army or not. If you're a pacifist, the government shouldn't steal from you to buy tanks. Period.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 05:09 PM |
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And then the military protects you for free, because there's no way for it to protect only the people who paid for it. You get to have something you haven't paid for - rather convenient for you, isn't it? One person not paying for something like that isn't going to make much of a difference. Of course with several million people thinking that way we have a problem.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 05:30 PM |
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Not really.
"Defending the citizens of the US from all enemies" is a pretty vague phrasing, isn't it?
You would think that one interpretation might limit "defense" to shore batteries, AA-guns and a couple of homeguard garrisons, with a specific view on land borders in North and South. "Defense" doesn't need much in terms of Aircraft carriers, troop transports (ships), intercontinental ballistic missiles enough to kill the world a few thousand times, B- and C-weapons, Steahlth bombers and so on - except when you define "defense" in a certain way that involves, for examples "interests abroad" and so on.
Investing heavily into the military based on a very wide definition of defense is a way more massive "resdistribution of wealth" than a couple of alms handed out to the poorest of the poor - who will spend the alms on articles of daily needs.
But this is just another useless discussion anyway.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 05:33 PM |
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We need the ICBMs because if we didn't have them, countries that do have them would be able to threaten us into doing anything. So we need at least ICBMs in addition to everything you said. And even so, all of that costs money, and it matters who's paying (and not paying).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 06:16 PM |
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And then the military protects you for free, because there's no way for it to protect only the people who paid for it. You get to have something you haven't paid for - rather convenient for you, isn't it? One person not paying for something like that isn't going to make much of a difference.
lol, I wonder how often in my life I'm going to benefit from militaries 
I can understand that you pay for a bodyguard, but it's not the same, you do not hire militaries so that they protect you (I mean, the average civilian)
I would even expect to be protected for free. like when I go to the hospital, I expect them to not let me die just because my money is more important to them that my life.
though, of course, if you spend every damn day at the hospital because you are hypochondriac, it's not much different from having a body guard.
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Of course with several million people thinking that way we have a problem
and with 6 billions people thinking that way, we solve a problem lol
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 06:36 PM |
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You're French, right? If France didn't have a military, the benefits from abusing it would be too great to not have someone do it - force France to pay tribute, or send its most skilled workers to work in the more powerful country, etc.
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and with 6 billions people thinking that way, we solve a problem lol
Such a world is impossible. If there are 6 billion pacifists and 1 non-pacifist, it's great for the non-pacifist but bad for the pacifists.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 06:54 PM |
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We need the ICBMs because if we didn't have them, countries that do have them would be able to threaten us into doing anything. So we need at least ICBMs in addition to everything you said. And even so, all of that costs money, and it matters who's paying (and not paying).
It's like dreadnaught type battleships. they were useless but everybody built them because... well, everybody built them. Until everybody realized there are useless.
Battleships were only meant to fight other battleships. For other jobs, as naval vessels, they were sub-par choice.
ICBM missiles are useless for defense and pretty much useless for attacking, because they can mostly succeed at killing civilians and nothing else, which is an act nobody should aim for.
Also, Mvass (and Elodin): this is meant to be about freedom, right? Then why you are forced to agree that somebody steals your goods and not believe in charity (and voluntary army-donation) ? I fail to see the point of such logic. Is tax theft? All of it? Or just some? So it's selective theft (and selective duty) depending on the goal? Why am I to agree to selective theft (what else this is?) ? Does theft differ in severity depending on the goal the money is spent on? ie. beggars = theft, tanks=good? What are we even trying to argue about? This is pointless.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 07:21 PM |
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yeah, tanks are useful to fight poverty
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 23, 2011 07:31 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:35, 23 May 2011.
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Quote:
Great. I believe in charity of warfare. You should be able to declare whether you want to donate cash to army or not. If you're a pacifist, the government shouldn't steal from you to buy tanks. Period.
Yes, you should be able to decide if you want taxes to go to the army or not. If you don't want them to go to the army that means you don't want the army to protect you. That means you should immediately be required to exit the borders of the nation and the military should not come to your aid for any reason.
You could then feel free to start a new nation that has no army if you think such a nation can survive. A good name for your new pacifist nation would be "Doomed."
National defense is necessary to any nation. Redistribution of wealth is not, and is immoral. There is no justification for the government stealing what I have earned through my hard work to give to someone who is sitting on the couch drinking beerr, eating pizza, and watching his favorite show.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 07:33 PM |
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doomforge:
ICBMs are very useful for defense. Countries know that if they attack a power that has ICBMs, they're getting nuked - and they don't want that. Mutually assured destruction results in mutually assured peace.
As for your question about taxation, all of taxation is theft (or, more accurately, extortion), as I only consent to it under the threat of force.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 23, 2011 07:59 PM |
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Mutually assured destruction results in mutually assured peace.
Assuming all parties are sane and rational, of course.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 08:21 PM |
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Yes, you should be able to decide if you want taxes to go to the army or not. If you don't want them to go to the army that means you don't want the army to protect you. That means you should immediately be required to exit the borders of the nation and the military should not come to your aid for any reason.
You could then feel free to start a new nation that has no army if you think such a nation can survive. A good name for your new pacifist nation would be "Doomed."
yeah, that's a good idea of liberty. you can do what you want, just accept to die if you don't go the same way as everyone else
though, you are probably quite right when it comes to the facts.
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National defense is necessary to any nation.
because most nations consider it is right to steal from other nations?
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted May 23, 2011 09:25 PM |
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Edited by Smithey at 21:27, 23 May 2011.
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I often wonder how a thread as such, reaches certain places
btw, nice one Mark...
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selcy
Famous Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 09:43 PM |
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Sometimes it doesn't pay to be nice because some people will always abuse that but when you want help in return they are nowhere to be found.
I have decided I am not going to be nice all the time anymore and will only be nice for people that are nice in return.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 23, 2011 09:44 PM |
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I often wonder how a thread as such, reaches certain places
Because people here never change...
Elodin: 75% opinion, 10% out-of context quoting, 10% opinionated quoting and 5% objective posting.
Corribus: 10% of a normal person's emotion, 70% mainstream quoting and well ducumented works, 20% opinion.
Mvass: Devils advocate, but doing it quite well...
Markkur: Still being awsome (though he should re-join the fan fic game. )
DF: 95% pacifist equalizer, 5% not.
Fauch: Pointing out incinsitancies, 50% slightly pessemistic, 50% slightly optimistic.
Smithey: Still confused and new. Opinionated, but very optimistic.
Superior: Dead, dead, gloriously dead!
Gnomes2169: A nubling who is still learning to ignore Elodin's constant bashing of his political intrests and flaming. An optimist who posts 65% opinionated posts and 35% personal experience posts.
(Note, will edit if anyone thinks I am wrong about them, just send me an HCM)
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 23, 2011 10:20 PM |
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Yes, you should be able to decide if you want taxes to go to the army or not. If you don't want them to go to the army that means you don't want the army to protect you. That means you should immediately be required to exit the borders of the nation and the military should not come to your aid for any reason.
Yup, I should be. Yes, I don't want an army to protect me - it should be funded by military charity of those who want an army in their country. I do not and I don't want government to steal from me in order to buy more tanks. It's immoral.
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National defense is necessary to any nation. Redistribution of wealth is not, and is immoral.
stealing for national defense however isn't necessary, and is much more immoral than stealing for charity. Charity theft can at least give some good to poor, military theft just gives power-hungry politicians and military personal more tools to kill with.
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There is no justification for the government stealing what I have earned through my hard work to give to someone who is sitting on the couch drinking beerr, eating pizza, and watching his favorite show.
Exactly! There's no justification for the government stealing what I have earned through my hard work to give to some power-hungry general who is sitting on his butt playing in the casinos and visiting prostitutes just because he wants 20 tanks more in his oversized platoon.
Mvass: that's why I gave the Battleship example. Those "weapons" are useful only because others have them. Their "real" tactical usage is not that good, unless you think nuking civilians is any good.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 24, 2011 12:29 AM |
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DF:
What do you think would happen if you lived in a reasonably rich country (or one with natural resources) that wasn't protected by any military (whether its own or another country's)? Obviously, it'd be invaded and taken over very quickly. There are only two ways to avoid invasion: be strong or be worthless. What do you think would happen to Poland if it were to disband its military, and if all the NATO countries said, "We don't care if anything happens to you."? It'd probably become a Russian puppet state.
And ICBMs are useful on their own merits, even if other countries don't have them. They're a great bargaining tool - if you invade us, we nuke you.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2011 12:52 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I often wonder how a thread as such, reaches certain places
Because people here never change...
Elodin: 75% opinion, 10% out-of context quoting, 10% opinionated quoting and 5% objective posting.
100% logical posts consisting of 25% quoting of non-biased sources proving his position, 50% elucidation of his position, and 25% rebuttal of incorrect opinions of others.
Gnomes2169: A nubling who is still learning to ignore Elodin's constant bashing of his political intrests and flaming brilliant posts. An optimist who posts 65% opinionated posts and 35% personal experience posts, resulting in expressions that are mostly nonsensical in nature.
Fixed.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 24, 2011 12:59 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 01:13, 24 May 2011.
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I often wonder how a thread as such, reaches certain places
Wow, I thought I had clicked on the wrong thread when I saw War, and ICBM.
Hmmm. My story "revised" for this "flow" would have to run like; "James was broke and hungry but he gave me his last ICBM anyway."
<IMO> You had a very good idea here. Share another story. The ol' book by the cover thing.
Edit = @Gnomes
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...Still being awsome
If that were true; you'd be asking map-making questions everyday.
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though he should re-join the fan fic game. 
You're probably thinking; "my fingers re healed becasue of that post". But, I wrote it years back and all I had to do now was "copy and paste".AND. You guys were too hard for me to keep up with. And that's a fact J...er...Gnomes. 
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"Do your own research"
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