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| Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Misc. Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted June 24, 2011 09:30 PM |
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Quote:
We have now something to visualize what we are talking about.
Markkur did it, and produced an ancient and forgotten dwarven city to an extent H5 has not seen yet.  
Hall of Decision - Ancient Dwarven City
Positively awesome. 
It loads now proper in H5's single player mode. Don't miss to check it out. If you want to view the entire map, use one of the beta open debug builds and hit the turn button once.
@TheBaron
Very good. I hope things get more clear over time.
What I am currently doing is rather giving fairly abstract guidance, so that we can incrementally refine our vision. If I would ask for a completely refined concept, things would look different. 
What I mean with linearity is a gameplay like do this first, then that, third that and so on. Having choices that provide access to different branches do not alleviate the linearity, it just makes it open-ended. What I mean with non-linearity is total freedom, like the adventure map lets us visit first one mine, then a treasure hoard, some resource pile, a guardian and so on but giving us total freedom of the order how we do things.
Yes, we need to discuss it, and I agree with your suggestion to show people something first, so that they can get to grips with it. We have now a fair sample map, and once I get around to implement a bit of the HoD gameplay mode, people will really be able to toy around with it and play in it.
So, we should get there step by step.
Solid.
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Markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 25, 2011 01:20 AM |
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@Q
I understand that you have an awesome vision for the HoD, anyone that has read your future image of E.E. knows that.
I think I am mis-firing a "little" but not lots.
Since I am trying to kick-start "a" vision <Imo> I have to spell it out line by line and that requirement in communicating makes it sound more "do this and do that" (by default) then it really is, well, at least in my head. My overall idea reads very linear but that's because it is being looked at like a roadmap for travel versus; "being' on the map and seeing things come up one at a time. Damn this is hard to communicate effectively. I can't string a bunch of open-endeds and anything can happens and really share anything with Baron. I do hope I'm making "some" sense.
Hmmm, I guess where I failed is what the "artifacts" mean to me. They mean a "multi-drection of possible Events" (like H3 events)but not just that; I see the many good ideas you've shared as those events. I see the awesome possibility of a healthy mix of old and new. But unfortunately, I had to start somewhere, even if it doesn't float boats right now, and least there's some water in the tub
I DO like the Might vs Magic angle and the paths of decision...very much, but I'm open to all of my ideas being side-lined if they are replaced by folks seeing them and doing the HP-thing and improving any or all. And that was my intent. If I dared to draw something up...let the pot-shots begin!
@Q and All
I have worked all day on 006 (wanting to save 007). <guffaw>
The map is already greatly changed. Lots of additional eye-candy, light-work and some more rooms etc.
In the morning; I am going to clean-up and organize my walk-about better as well as pinpoint some things for brain-storming. I will try to spend some time to write-up more clearly what has been at the back of my little mind while doing the work.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 01, 2011 05:59 PM |
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Here it is, Markkur has provided us with another magnificent vision of the ancient and forgotten dwarven city aka Hall of Decision.
Hall of Decision - Ancient Dwarven City rev. 2
We are now nearly there that we can shift the focus of the work to the quests and what is happening in the Hall of Decision.
I will review the new map and post it here.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 04, 2011 06:25 PM |
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Ok, I visited all places in the new Hall of Decision and thought a bit.
First, a couple of examples what non-linear quests could be. In general, I have no problem with a might and a magic quest. Alignment can play a big role in the Hall of Decision.
Before anything else, the Hall of Decision is a race to visit all fountains and be the first to reach the victory fountain. This gives the game its own time limit, a competitive one. It is also acceptable to have a guardian for the victory fountain who depends on the alignment/quests chosen. BUT there should be an additional route, that allows a smart stealthy player to avoid the fight and still win the game.
In general, a fountain shouldn't set a quest by default. It rather should be optional, a second visit might reveal the might/magic quest. Non-linearity is the key here. The player might collect twenty quest objectives on his/her way, and having certain ones simultaneously can bring up additional options and quest items. BUT all should be doable in any random order, not requiring a visit this place first, then that. Many RPGs use this for lack of better structure. But with a TBS that has an extremely rich rule set and an incredible variety of objects, we can do much better here.
I hope this doesn't sound too demanding. I can give more guidelines if required. Actually, the non-linearity should make it more simple to implement.
Think creatively, everything can work in its own way in the Hall of Decision. For example the resources:
- mercury might poison troops, or repair/yield golems for Academy
- gold/treasure might raise hostile ghosts or yield gold golems
You can easily come up with your own rules. One feature of the Hall of Decision is that these rules might be determined randomly at map start. One playthrough the rules are this, another that, completely different. The same is true for adventure map objects. For example learning stones might provide (a) magic insight, (b) boost to spells in the next combat, (c) hints to hidden locations.
In general, all events in the Hall of Decision will be based on the strength of the heroes on the map. Ambushs or creatures that join will level the odds between different players, but will not provide extensive random extremes. That's a thing we need to figure out, how this is done properly.
REGARDING THE HALL OF DECISION DESIGN: in general as always brilliant work, Markkur. But I have a number of gripes with this version. I cannot really put my finger on it but this version feels less natural.
One big issue might be that we have very many similar places. The seven resource areas plus the construction site look very much the same (makes 8 similar regions). It might be better to keep only the crystal, iron (with a bit of gold refinement department added) and wood, makes three in total.
Somehow I feel that the dungeon dark water, the night blue with light blue twinkles, isn't looking so well here. The water you had in the first 006, green and translucent looked much more natural, it gave the hall an awesome feeling of water that accumulated. The dark water looks somehow too deep.
The crack in the King's mausoleum is well done. Can you add a bit of lava at the bottom?
Ok, that's my first impression after having visited every place in the new map. If you don't agree or like me to be more specific we could also discuss individual places. Maybe that brings to light, what options we have and how the hall can evolve in one direction or another. We could also call a stop now sooner or later and then go to the quest phase and see how things work out.
Thoughts?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 04, 2011 07:15 PM |
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First off; I do hope; now that we are at this stage,more gamers/ mapmakers will take part in this design discussion.
To be blunt, if it is totally up to me to assist our dear Wizard, then the HoD will suffer to some degree. My contribution is hindered in 2 ways. my health and the Editor. The pair obscure my creative vision at times. Please answer this summons.
@Q
You're not being negative at all. The whole thing was/is "fodder for invention/inspiration from the start. I would guess you are correct , about the "less-natural"; how much dealing with an unfriendly editor with few options in making an aged hall has affected my delivery, I cannot know. I'm way too close to the map's surface to be a good judge.
I will save and review all that you've written and see where I'm led. I will also stay alert to any ideas that come our way.
Cheers for all you're doing Q.
____________
"Do your own research"
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 05, 2011 06:13 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:14, 05 Jul 2011.
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@Q
Wow, all of a sudden...posted! I think my keyboard is on the blink.
Here are a few thoughts about your suggestions.
1. About the water: If this is really important I need to know the map-name and location of the greenish water? I am at a loss. (006 was renamed 007) Both of those have the same ambient-light.
Note: It may be that I impacted how the water appeared with either "local" light or the chosen terrain tile under the water.
 , I went back and looked at water on 007 in various amb-light settings. But the more I thought about this; I have been in only one ambient mode, "the second dungeon setting" (the first has shadows and I've never used it) because of the "too dark" comment on an earlier design. So, I can only guess that maybe it is the "fountain area above the waterfall that you feel is the most un-natural? That I can see because the area is strongly lit in white and the division of colors is quite significant. I'll blend the lighting in that area far better than I have.
I think it would be good for me to make another "amb-comparison" map and send it to you for your inspection in the same fashion.
When I used this previous setting it was on a map that I had done only minor light-work and indeed it was too dark. However, in my search for water I reloaded it and think it is by far the best choice. What makes it <imo> a viable option now is the vast number of lights that I have placed on 007. There are no dark spots but the effect of this lower ambient dungeon setting again <imo> is striking. Fog and smoke are thicker, colors are deeper, richer. And my choice of dark-yellow passage-lighting found within the "halls" is set to a better tint and tone. I think more sinister or threatening.
I want to try this first before going anywhere else because I have to set the "ambient in stone", since it will influence all lighting on the map. Doing so, will mean that I will have to adjust areas but I am very much ready to do that if it makes a superior environment.
Future for 5.5. This is pie-in-the-sky but if you could create ambient-lighting that could be "region-set"? <imo> That would be quite the powerful advancement.
2. About the resource areas. I'll just share my thoughts and you will choose which way we go. I've no problem with that.
I view all of the areas as "vital" or neccesary for this old dwarven-settlement. Resources are a big part of the game in general and I think with the shear size of this Dwarven city they would have mastered resource areas that belittle anything done on the surface, to support such an immense building program back in its hayday.
I think that if they are left, they could still be further-tweeked for a given purpose. Those needs can be met I hope. We can have "events" "sub-quest triggers" for some of your ideas, "calamites or ambushes", etc. can happen within these areas as anywhere else on the map of course.
3.About the access to the Victory Fountain. That's an easy fix, A tunnel lies directly behind the start-box behind the White-Fountain We would just need to provide a "Block" there until certain conditions are met. This would also keep that area a valid "start/peek" location behind the fountain.
Look for the "test" map soon. I hope you have the time to eval.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 05, 2011 10:11 PM |
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I think it was the first map you sent as 006. If you do not archive the map revisions, you should begin to do that. Your e-mail sent folder should still have it.
No. The point you make regarding the resource areas isn't substantiated. Surely, dwarves will have extensive mining operations but there is no requirement having these within the city bounds. If these really would add something to the map, ok, but right now these are merely lookalikes. What about the downtown grid? I haven't noticed any suitable places for hidden corridors, chambers and the like except on the fringe of the map.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 06, 2011 01:18 AM |
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Quote:
I think it was the first map you sent as 006. If you do not archive the map revisions, you should begin to do that. Your e-mail sent folder should still have it.
I have everything thing I've sent you and more of my own but not this one, because it is in a "Day" ambient for my work purposes. That explains why you are seeing a big difference. I suppose, if you want to go to a setting that bright we can but <imo>it will greatly impact the mood behind exploration in underground regions.
Quote:
No. The point you make regarding the resource areas isn't substantiated. Surely, dwarves will have extensive mining operations but there is no requirement having these within the city bounds.
I doubt I could disagree more but I'm not making a map for myself.
Quote:
What about the downtown grid? I haven't noticed any suitable places for hidden corridors, chambers and the like except on the fringe of the map.
Can you help me here; how much room (cell-wise) do you need for various activites? When I peered at the map just now there seems to me many areas for something to pop-out but not if it requires far more space than I realize. Btw, I noticed that with my revision-work there are some areas where the dungeon walls are not seen on the mini-map due to the old tiles still present. I'll go over the map now and clean that up, so the mini will reveal exactly.
One of the things that drove the design of the city core was your requirement of a lot of small rooms and nooks. I can remove some here and there and rebuild the dungeon walls to greater depth in places. Another thing that I can do is narrow the streets a little.
Maybe it might be best to make current changes as you deem needed and then halt. Get some concrete list of what exactly will happen and where and then I will have some sort of guide. After that, ideas that require a certain type of area, structures or terrain can replace an existing resource area.
____________
"Do your own research"
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 06, 2011 01:09 PM |
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Ok, I reviewed your color test, and let's call it a freeze but with two changes.
First, what you call your working light is much better & more suitable. Let's use this. I doubt it ruins the mood, and if it indeed turns out too bright I can always adjust it in game to a darker lighting. If in doubt it's the lighting of the version published on the EE site, no. 006.
Second, can you convert the remaining rock in the northeast to a big downtown grid? Small corridors, lots of small rooms in sizeable blocks with ample space for hidden chambers and passages.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 06, 2011 05:59 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, I reviewed your color test, and let's call it a freeze but with two changes.
First, what you call your working light is much better & more suitable. Let's use this. I doubt it ruins the mood, and if it indeed turns out too bright I can always adjust it in game to a darker lighting. If in doubt it's the lighting of the version published on the EE site no. 006.
I have no doubt but it would be silly of me not to verify. I mean I am working on E.E. after all.
I imagine you will tone this down a bit.<IMO> It kills much of my light-work. In example the many lights that I have put in hallways were un-neceesary in this scheme. You can see everything on the map with zero added-light.
Since I've not even considered this lighting for use, this morning I'll make sure there are no shadows. Unless part of the earthen roof has caved-in.
Btw, food for thought in HoD battles. I saw very recently where a member at HC had imported an ambient into the battle arena. With some of the radical settings that are available but not often used, this could be something different when a story-line may dictate.
Quote:
Second, can you convert the remaining rock in the northeast to a big downtown grid? Small corridors, lots of small rooms in sizeable blocks with ample space for hidden chambers and passages.
Ah, but of course.
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 06, 2011 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
I imagine you will tone this down a bit.<IMO> It kills much of my light-work. In example the many lights that I have put in hallways were un-neceesary in this scheme. You can see everything on the map with zero added-light.
Not true. The Hall of Decision lets you see only what is in the immediate vicinity of your hero. What is further out is darkened, and how much you can see of it depends on the light sources there.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 07, 2011 12:51 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 05:23, 07 Jul 2011.
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Edit= Nevermind
Did more work. It's in the mail
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 07, 2011 12:24 PM |
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Ok, you can keep your lighting. I will find a way to brighten things up where necessary in the game.
I will focus on the AI end stage now, so answers may come a bit more slowly for a while. Once you have it I will put a preliminary final 008 on the EE website so that folks can review it.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 07, 2011 04:05 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, you can keep your lighting. I will find a way to brighten things up where necessary in the game.
The latest I sent is not really my choice but I agree with you that the public HoD needs to be brighter than what I would prefer and that setting seems to fit the bill. With all the work you are already doing, not forgetting your future plans, I am trying to prevent you from needing to do a thing here. At places where you will need more light, I want to do that. I can't with objects that you introduce in the game by script, unless I can before you code them. But I hope there is not much need there, if we plan ahead well and I can just add additonal lighting of any color/strength-requirement where planned events occur.
Quote:
I will focus on the AI end stage now, so answers may come a bit more slowly for a while. Once you have it I will put a preliminary final 008 on the EE website so that folks can review it.
OK. Then I will make the additional changes and probably add another tour to view only what will be different on 008 and then get going on some base-line Questing so we can have something to hack when you're ready to focus on the Hall.
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Fester
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2011 12:00 AM |
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thoughts on new builds.
Please dont take this the wrong way but whats with the having to reinstall the entire setup for every upgrade? 
If I get I right the files presented are additional files that dont overwrite any of the old ones. To me it seems like it is to refresh the registry in win but that can be done with regfiles in 1 second without shoveling all files back and fourth. 1 that deletes all , one that restores or just 1 that does both (if someone knows howto do allin1 ).
I realize the comlications in resuming a savegame created by a exe that "thinks" and maybe saves in its own way with a new one. Though it whould be neat if the new build could upgrade the save to its own version by asking , notifying that behavior might change so its at your own risk.
Its just a suggestion and I´m VERY certain You (Q) is already behind your "schedule" so upgrading saves is not the main thing but as for the contiunious reinstalling, I feel that should be looked into.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 09:31 AM |
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Why is it even necessary to have save game compatibility with every new version? I have seen a lot of commercial game patches that have no save game compatibility. I would have dropped this goal a long time ago and keep things simple.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 10:04 AM |
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What's that about? Is there a bug I do not know about? If so, please report it to the bugs thread.
The savegames are 100% compatible between all versions except of the 3.1.8 beta NCF experiment. This didn't make savegames incompatible, rather it corrupted the internal game state, which is more problematic and the recommended solution is a clean reinstall and not using the corrupted savegames again. The savegames are really a fully serialized copy of the game state. The same is true for any NCF/RPE savegames.
In fact you can exchange savegames from EE and ToE vanilla freely. Play it first with EE or ToE, then vice versa, and then again continue with the version you chose first.
Regarding the installation procedure, what is your trouble with copying two files (the H5_AIAdv_xxx and H5_AIProcess) to the bin folder?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
What's that about? Is there a bug I do not know about? If so, please report it to the bugs thread.
I was under the impression you shelved the NCF/RPE implementation because an excessive amount of database work you needed to do to keep savegame compatibility while thousands of players have been happy with these mods for years with more savegame issues than EE ever had.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
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posted July 10, 2011 02:31 PM |
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What's your problem with waiting patiently until I can get around to implement the fully moddable EE mechanics?
The reason that only a couple of percent of the fanbase trust mods are exactly issues like this.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 10, 2011 02:37 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 14:38, 10 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Why is it even necessary to have save game compatibility with every new version? I have seen a lot of commercial game patches that have no save game compatibility. I would have dropped this goal a long time ago and keep things simple.
Don't antagonise the guy for Christ's sake. Look at the amount of work he's doing and has done here for no money under extreme pressure. It's like having a receptive, active version of Slava Salnikov all over again. He's revived H5 single-handedly. None of us have these sort of abilities as far as I can tell, so the least we can do as a thanks for his presence is have some trust in his sense of priorities.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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