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| Thread: Wish: Terrain should affect Towns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 16, 2002 12:30 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 7 May 2002
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Wish: Terrain should affect Towns
Wish: Terrain should affect Towns
The creatures in each town have their native terrain, and the towns have received different landscapes depending on where you place them, so the Town picture looks different.
So now we have towns that looks different but it would surprise me if they actually have made them different too! (At least I've not heard or seen anything to this effect.)
The current system makes it very unlikely they'll add another town, and I don't think they'll add several towns. But why not expand the towns we already have?
So this is a wish for an expansion to make the towns different depending on the Terrain they are on. That is an Asylum on Snow will not be the same as an Asylum on a Swamp.
These are some things that could be different...
1. The overall creature growth should be higher on native Terrain than on non-native terrain. (Say 150% of normal on naive. For "allied" Terrain the growth could be 120%.)
2. The native terrain should offer all choices for the castle, which in this case means three choices for the level 2-4 creatures.
3. Different choices for creature-dwellings when the town is on non-native terrain. (A castle on non-native terrain offers only 2 out of three possible creature dwellings.)
4. The spell selection could be different as well. Certain spells could appear only when the Mage Guild is built on certain terrain.
5. The town specific buildings could also be different depending on Terrain.
6. Town income could be different. Higher on allied and native terrain and lower on "non-allied" terrains.
Below I've written down which creatures could be added to which towns (taking neutrals where appropriate). Some of the "Not build on" doesn't make too much sense, but that's very difficult to avoid if you want things symmetric.
Academy (Snow)
Snow: 150%, Allied: Grass and Forest: 120%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Gold Golem, Mage, Gargoyle
Level 3 creatures: Genie, Naga, Yeti
Level 4 creatures: Dragon Golem, Titan, Valkyrie
Gold Golem: Not in Swamp, Grass
Mage: Not in Volcanic, Rough
Gargoyle: Not in Desert, Forest
***
Genie: Not in Rough, Volcanic
Naga: Not in Swamp, Forest
Yeti: Not in Desert, Grass
***
Dragon Golem: Not in Rough, Swamp
Titan: Not in Forest, Grass
Valkyrie: Not in Volcanic, Desert
NOTE: Since Gargoyles are Death-aligned in H4, they either have to change the alignment or add another creature to the game, preferrably a flier.
Asylum (Swamp)
Swamp: 150%, Allied: Volcanic and Forest: 120%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Medusa, Minotaur, Beholder
Level 3 creatures: Efreet, Nightmare, Wyvern
Level 4 creatures: Black Dragon, Hydra, Manticore
Medusa: Not in Snow, Rough
Minotaur: Not in Grass, Forest
Beholder: Not in Desert, Volcanic
***
Efreet: Not in Snow, Forest
Nightmare: Not in Grass, Rough
Wyvern: Not in Volcanic, Desert
***
Black Dragon: Grass, Forest
Hydra: Not in Snow, Desert
Manticore: Not in Volcanic, Rough
Haven (Grass)
Grass: 150%, Allied: Snow and Forest: 120%, Other 100%
Level 2 creatures: Ballista, Pikemen, Bard
Level 3 creatures: Crusader, Monk, Pegasus
Level 4 creatures: Silver Dragon, Angel, Champion
Ballista: Not in Forest, Swamp
Pikemen: Not in Desert, Rough
Bard: Not in Volcanic, Snow
***
Crusader: Not in Swamp, Snow
Monk: Not in Forest, Volcanic
Pegasus: Not in Desert, Rough
***
Silver Dragon: Rough, Forest
Angel: Not in Volcanic, Swamp
Champion: Not in Snow, Desert
Necropolis (Volcanic)
Volcanic: 150%, Allied: Swamp and Snow: 120%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Cerberi, Ghost and Mummy.
Level 3 creatures: Venom Spawn, Vampire and Succubus.
Level 4 creatures: Devil, Bone Dragon, and Reaper.
Cerberi: Not in Grass, Desert
Ghost: Not in Swamp, Forest
Mummy: Not in Rough, Snow
***
Venom Spawn: Not in Grass, Snow
Vampire: Not in Desert, Swamp
Succubus: Not in Rough, Forest
***
Devil: Not in Grass, Snow
Bone Dragon: Not in Swamp, Forest
Reaper: Not in Desert, Rough
NOTE: For the level 2 Gargoyle could also be considered, and for the level 3 Ice Demon.
Preserve (Forest)
Forest: 150%, Allied: Swamp and Grass: 120%, Other 100%
Level 2 creatures: Elf, White Tiger, Satyr
Level 3 creatures Unicorn, Griffin, Giant Spiderwoman
Level 4 creatures: Phoenix, Mantis, Faerie Dragon
NOTE: To avoid excessive growth of Satyr's and Mantis's they'll probably have to remove these from the creature portal. Or alternatively, add new alternatives for the level 2 and level 4 slots.
Elf: Not in Desert, Rough
White Tiger: Not in Grass, Swamp
Satyr: Not in Snow, Volcanic
***
Unicorn: Not in Rough, Desert
Spiderwoman: Not in Grass, Snow
Griffin: Not in Swamp, Volcanic
***
Mantis: Not in Volcanic, Desert
Faerie Dragon: Not in Grass, Swamp
Phoenix: Not in Snow, Rough
Stronghold (Rough)
Rough and Desert(Allied): 150%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Harpy, Nomad, Troll
Level 3 creatures: Cyclops, Ogre Magi, Basilisk
Level 4 creatures: Behemoth, Thunderbird, Scylla
Harpy: Not in Desert, Volcanic
Nomad: Not in Swamp, Forest
Troll: Not in Grass, Snow
***
Cyclops: Not in Volcanic, Snow
Ogre Magi: Not in Swamp, Forest
Basilisk: Not in Desert, Grass
***
Behemoth: Not in Swamp, Volcanic
Thunderbird: Not in Snow, Desert
Scylla: Not in Grass, Forest
Edited: Rearranged the creatures a bit. Switched Troll and Basilisk, and moved Mummy to level 2 Necro and added a new Demon in its place.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Wesley
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted February 16, 2002 01:14 PM |
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Quote:
Necropolis (Volcanic)
Volcanic: 150%, Allied: Swamp and Snow: 120%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Cerberi, Ghost and Zombie
Level 3 creatures: Venom Spawn, Vampire and Mummy.
Level 4 creatures: Devil, Bone Dragon, and Reaper.
Cerberi: Not in Grass, Desert
Ghost: Not in Swamp, Forest
Zombie: Not in Rough, Snow
***
Venom Spawn: Not in Grass, Snow
Vampire: Not in Desert, Swamp
Mummy: Not in Rough, Forest
***
Devil: Not in Grass, Snow
Bone Dragon: Not in Swamp, Forest
Reaper: Not in Desert, Rough
Preserve (Forest)
Forest: 150%, Allied: Swamp and Grass: 120%, Other 100%
Level 2 creatures: Elf, White Tiger, Satyr
Level 3 creatures Unicorn, Griffin, Giant Spiderwoman
Level 4 creatures: Phoenix, Mantis, Faerie Dragon
Elf: Not in Desert, Rough
White Tiger: Not in Grass, Swamp
Satyr: Not in Snow, Volcanic
***
Unicorn: Not in Rough, Desert
Spiderwoman: Not in Grass, Snow
Griffin: Not in Swamp, Volcanic
***
Mantis: Not in Volcanic, Desert
Faerie Dragon: Not in Grass, Swamp
Phoenix: Not in Snow, Rough
Stronghold (Rough)
Rough and Desert(Allied): 150%, Other: 100%
Level 2 creatures: Harpy, Nomad, Basilisk
Level 3 creatures: Cyclops, Ogre Magi, Troll
Level 4 creatures: Behemoth, Thunderbird, Scylla
Harpy: Not in Desert, Volcanic
Nomad: Not in Swamp, Forest
Basilisk: Not in Grass, Snow
***
Cyclops: Not in Volcanic, Snow
Ogre Magi: Not in Swamp, Forest
Troll: Not in Desert, Grass
***
Behemoth: Not in Swamp, Volcanic
Thunderbird: Not in Snow, Desert
Scylla: Not in Grass, Forest
Cool Idea djive!
1 Question. Why the level 1 creatures don't have a 3th creature?(Or is it because of that you can choose them both anyway?)
Also some creatures could be different(If you really did it on that creatures or just took some random.)
In the necropolis town you only added Undead creatures. I think they need some demons aswel.
So level 3 (Succubus/Pit Lord/Balrog)Or for other undead(Black Knight=Is death knight on horse because the hero hasn't a horse)
Level 2 is to much for just the zombie. Maybe:mummy could be there.
For stronghold. I shall switch the troll and basilisk 
For preserve. SPiderwoman-Evil + called drider. But a Half Drow/dark elf half spider is not a good mix with Good elves + I thought the Good Elves hated spiders. With that reason the drow/dark elves loved spiders.
Other possibilities for perserve could be.
Unit Druid/Dryad/Hind/Ranger.
But I guess it wasn't really for the creatures, it's more for the idea. And I really like the idea! it's true some creatures should be better or not even be created on some kind of terrains.
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Slava14
Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
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posted February 16, 2002 01:24 PM |
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I like the idea
but I disagree with the growth part.
This way the terrain decides your starting choice, since a 150% growth is too much of a difference, ecpecially stating day 1, week 1.
If you would pick your favourite town instead of the one that suits the terrain (unless they're the same) you will have a huge disadvantage.
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I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 16, 2002 01:37 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 16 Feb 2002
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"1 Question. Why the level 1 creatures don't have a 3th creature?(Or is it because of that you can choose them both anyway?)"
Yeah, that's pretty much it... The problem is that you would have to get 2 out of 3, or you'd need to find an empty space to place a third level 1 dwelling in each town, and that may actually prove difficult...
Besides, who really care about the level 1s. Most players want a variety of powerful creatures, don't they?
"Also some creatures could be different(If you really did it on that creatures or just took some random.)"
I took neutral creatures and added them according to alignment. Then I looked at missing creatures from Heroes 3 and also from some threads on HC.
"In the necropolis town you only added Undead creatures. I think they need some demons aswel.
So level 3 (Succubus/Pit Lord/Balrog)Or for other undead(Black Knight=Is death knight on horse because the hero hasn't a horse)
Level 2 is to much for just the zombie. Maybe:mummy could be there."
Well Necropolis actually hold three types of creatures: spirits, undead, and demon-like creatures. So perhaps some spiritual creature could be added. You could be right about moving Mummy to level 2 and taking in something new on the available level 3. You're right about the Zombie being a bit on the weak side for level 2 but you can compensate that somewhat with a higher production.
***
"For stronghold. I shall switch the troll and basilisk "
Well, the way the trolls look (awfully) skinny, they should probably rename it to Goblin. It's disgraceful. But from what I've seen so far of Trolls they are level 3 (unless they changed it), so only the level 2 spot would be available for the Basilisk. The two creatures are of similar power, so they could make it either way. They would have to keep the level of the Troll, so that's mainly what decides.
"For preserve. SPiderwoman-Evil + called drider. But a Half Drow/dark elf half spider is not a good mix with Good elves + I thought the Good Elves hated spiders. With that reason the drow/dark elves loved spiders.
Other possibilities for perserve could be.
Unit Druid/Dryad/Hind/Ranger."
Well, you don't necessarily need to keep alignments. Some of the Preserve creatures are neutral in alignment, take the Wolf, Mantis and the Waspwort for example. They are animals that kill mainly for food, and the Wolf and the White Tiger are usually not considered good. So adding another Predator (like a Giant Spiderwoman) doesn't necessarily hurt the Preserve. Also human views of Elves and Dwarves have changed. Nowadays, they're considered good, but that hasn't always been the case.
"But I guess it wasn't really for the creatures, it's more for the idea. And I really like the idea! it's true some creatures should be better or not even be created on some kind of terrains."
"This way the terrain decides your starting choice, since a 150% growth is too much of a difference, ecpecially stating day 1, week 1."
I see. In the case of the starting town being random, they could add a feature that transforms the terrain immediately around the town so it always have native terrain when you start a map. This could be a new option for towns.
Alternatively, you could be able to set the Terrain in the Town in the Map editor, and then be given the choices:
'Volcanic', 'Desert', 'Rough', 'Swamp', 'Snow', 'Forest', 'Grass' or 'Native Terrain for the Town'. This setting then influences the Terrain on the world map a few tiles away from the town.
So you set in the town how the immediate area around the town should look, instead of choosing town view based on what terrain the map-maker has placed there.
In the case of random towns on random maps, there's no random map generator any more.
And in the case of the starting town not being random, it's up to the map-maker to place the town on the appropriate terrain.
"If you would pick your favourite town instead of the one that suits the terrain (unless they're the same) you will have a huge disadvantage."
They could compensate for this, so "starting" towns always are surrounded by a patch of native terrain.
I'd want this feature for outpost towns. Then you'd be given a choice of taking the town type where the production is highest or a town you already have but with a lower creature production. This will add a strategic choice to the game.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2002 03:06 PM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 16 Feb 2002
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Wouldn't it be a huge handicap to start the map and be stuck in a town on non-native terrain? You would then need to carefully adjust every map to make sure there's no imbalance, which will then eliminate the purpose of using the "Random" town placement in the map editor. And it would also limit your choice of starting castle (when you select a mission and choose which town you want to use). Since the terrain is fixed, if you choose the wrong town to begin with, you're handicapped.
Then there is the question of why would a town being built on different soil affect the actual creature types generated inside?
And another problem is that since each town will be different depending on its soil, they each are no longer unique. I remember an Asylum for such and such creatures it has, but if its creatures are different depending on what terrain it's on, you can no longer call it an Asylum. You would have to start naming them Snow Asylum, Lava Asylum, Grass Asylum, etc.. The towns would no longer be constants (well actually they already aren't, but they would further become varied), which complicates things. And it would be too much to remember (the differences between each town based on terrain -- Should I go and capture the Swamp Stronghold or the Desert one? I can't even remember the difference between them off the top of my head).
I think things should stay simpler. Homm series started off pretty simple, the type of game you didn't really need to read a thick manual to understand.. then with each installment it got more and more sophisticated and less newbie-friendly. I would like it to stay not too complicated and not turn into a game that has so many rules to remember that you need a thick manual to understand it.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 16, 2002 04:44 PM |
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"Wouldn't it be a huge handicap to start the map and be stuck in a town on non-native terrain? You would then need to carefully adjust every map to make sure there's no imbalance, which will then eliminate the purpose of using the "Random" town placement in the map editor. And it would also limit your choice of starting castle (when you select a mission and choose which town you want to use). Since the terrain is fixed, if you choose the wrong town to begin with, you're handicapped."
I've already addressed the cure for this above... but overall the random choice is not really fair in Heroes 3. Random handicaps the terrian types with a penalty: Fortress(Swamp), Tower(Snow), and Stronghold(Rough).
These towns should enjoy the protection of their own terrain around their castles, but "random" towns nullifies this. This usually also adds the oddity of having a highway straight through the swamp to the town, where you would normally not expect any road at all.
"Then there is the question of why would a town being built on different soil affect the actual creature types generated inside?"
Well, the question is perhaps here more along the lines... Why would Swamp dwellers ever considering bulding a town in say a desert, why would grass dwellers ever build a town in Volcanic terrain? And if they anyway built the town in this unknown and hostile landscape, just how likely is the town to prosper and attract creatures?
An Efreet is for example totally misplaced in Snow Terrain, a Ballista couldn't move an inch without sinking in the bogs in a Swamp and so on and so forth.
"And another problem is that since each town will be different depending on its soil, they each are no longer unique. I remember an Asylum for such and such creatures it has, but if its creatures are different depending on what terrain it's on, you can no longer call it an Asylum. You would have to start naming them Snow Asylum, Lava Asylum, Grass Asylum, etc.. The towns would no longer be constants (well actually they already aren't, but they would further become varied), which complicates things. And it would be too much to remember (the differences between each town based on terrain -- Should I go and capture the Swamp Stronghold or the Desert one? I can't even remember the difference between them off the top of my head)."
The first time you play a Map this would not have any importance. You would not know where the other towns are and what types they are anyway.
And the towns are not really different, unless you add different town specific buildings. It's just that certain dwellings can't be built in certain towns. In heroes 3 you are not guaranteed to be able to build a level 7 building, and sometimes you can't see that you won't be able to build the level 7 until you've built level 1-6, because it's only then that the level 7 option is grayed out.
"I think things should stay simpler. Homm series started off pretty simple, the type of game you didn't really need to read a thick manual to understand.. then with each installment it got more and more sophisticated and less newbie-friendly. I would like it to stay not too complicated and not turn into a game that has so many rules to remember that you need a thick manual to understand it."
Why would you need a manual? The town interface will tell you what you may build at any one time, and you are never guaranteed to be able to build a certin structure in a certain town to begin with.
And this is realistic. When you develope a town you shouldn't know how much it can be developed.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Largo_LeGrande
Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
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posted February 16, 2002 07:35 PM |
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I've been thinking something like this. My idea is for few creatures only. Dragons at Asylum:
Snow: White Dragons(ice breath)
Underground: Black Dragons (acid breath)
Forest and grass: Green Dragons (poison breath)
Rough and Sand: Blue Dragons (lighting breath)
Swamp and Lava: Red Dragons (fire breath.
Other idea could be at Stronghold and with Cyclopes (a giant-kin):
Lava and Swamp: Fire Giants (black skinned dudes with fire resistance and a sword)
Snow: Frost Giants (white skinned dudes with cold resistans and an axe)
Rough and sand: Cyclopes (boulders)
Underground: Ettin (two-headed dudes with two club)
Grass and Forest: Wood Giants/Voadkyn (smallest giant with big bow)
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Ramparter
Hired Hero
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posted February 16, 2002 10:14 PM |
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I think terrain could also affect some buildings.For example in snow terrain a resource silo could product gems while in underground could product sulfur.
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2002 12:25 AM |
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I agree with Jenova. It's too complicated, and I personally don't like the idea because I believe that the terrain should have no effect on the town. When people ask me why I think the terrains in the town don't change/have no effect on the creatures living inside, what I think is that the town has a magical aura that converts the town into whatever the native terrain is (so an inferno castle has a magical aura surrounding it so the land is hot)
But it is a good idea...just wouldn't work too well in a game because it requires FAR too much thinking for some of us.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 17, 2002 01:02 AM |
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What thinking are you referring to?
And anyway, what's wrong with thought in a strategy game? *shocked*
Apart from the 20% bonus for "allied" terrains, there's not all that much new thinking required in the proposal. And that particular part was added more to illustrate that it could be added. The system will work well without it also.
You need to consider things when you face the choice of which level X building to take, and also which town you should take for an Outpost. But you already HAVE to make tough choices in these situations.
When it comes to which town to take next, it's irrelevant.
You either don't know where the towns are located or which towns are placed where. When you start a Map with town assigment you won't know which Town Types you can find where and that has a bigger impact than the changed production.
It's rather so that this feature adds a replay value because players want to find out what works best.
Also if you take say an Academy which another player has captured before, you won't know if that player has built for Dragon Golems or Titans, and you'll anyway have to accept what he has built, even if you would want the opposite.
If you think that 50% production is a deciding factor, then consider that if you start with Stronghold, Necropolis, Academy or Haven and hire a Lord, then you've 50% chance to get 40% bonus to production on week 1 if you can increase the Lord's level to 2, and you have 75% for a level 3 Lord and 100% chance for level 4 Lord. (And for a level 4 Lord you have decent chances to get 60% bonus to production.) A level 10 Lord would be guranteed to give 80-100% bonus to production if you wanted to develope the hero in that way. (You need Estates ad Mining at Expert, and just decline to open Diplomacy skill when offered.)
If you start with Asylum or Preserve you can't hire a Lord, and it's awkward at best to try to get Nobility to the same rank, even if you pick it at first oppurtunity.
The other proposals (above) adds a bit too many choices per creature level. If you add five choices for dragons for Asylum you must do the same for all other level 4.s. I simply can't see 3DO making that many monsters, and I'd also agree with Jenova and Darion that the game becomes too complicated, in the case where you add 5+ choices for a level in all the towns.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted February 17, 2002 01:20 AM |
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I like the idea, or better said the first part of the idea where the creature growth is concerned.
I agree that on native terrain towns should get boost for their creatures. And why do it in precents? It can be done in exact numbers. Town that is on native terrain gets +1 4th level creature, +3 3rd level, +5 2nd level and +9 1st level for example.
As for the rest of the idea, although it sounds reasonable some creatures to be unavailable if town is built on some other terrain, I think that this will add unnecessary complication to the game.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted February 17, 2002 03:40 AM |
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Quote:
And why do it in precents? It can be done in exact numbers. Town that is on native terrain gets +1 4th level creature, +3 3rd level, +5 2nd level and +9 1st level for example.
That's no good. One extra Black Dragon (2-4 times as powerful as any other level 4) is a heck of a lot more powerful than one extra anything else. And the same can be said at other levels too - 9 extra Centaurs (which are 2-3 times as powerful as any other level 1) is a lot stronger than 9 extra Imps. That's why you leave it in percent - an extra Black Dragon every other week is about equal to 2 extra Champions a week, and they're the same level.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 17, 2002 10:41 AM |
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Quote:
That's no good. One extra Black Dragon (2-4 times as powerful as any other level 4) is a heck of a lot more powerful than one extra anything else. And the same can be said at other levels too - 9 extra Centaurs (which are 2-3 times as powerful as any other level 1) is a lot stronger than 9 extra Imps. That's why you leave it in percent - an extra Black Dragon every other week is about equal to 2 extra Champions a week, and they're the same level.
That's my thinking too. However, there's no guarantee that % will be fair either.
It will be fair if they accumulate the chances so 50% growth translates to 1 extra black dragon every second week. If you never get any extra Blacks then you've obviously just replaced one injustice with another, since the Champion building would produce 6 Champions instead of 4.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2002 02:20 PM |
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Quote:
What thinking are you referring to?
And anyway, what's wrong with thought in a strategy game? *shocked*
It's complicated because there's too many rules and then exceptions to the rules. The less things to remember, the easier it is for newbies. You don't actually need a manual to know what to do, but the manual tells you information on the why of things. For instance, if I built an Asylum that didn't offer any Dragons, I'd be confused and then have to consult the manual. I want to be able to read the manual once and never need to look at it again. I love manuals, but I don't like having to go back to them for things that I can't remember the first time, things such as "how come this town .....".
Someone who's new would want something streamlined and easy to understand. But if there's exceptions to the rule for multiple variables (such as terrain) it would confuse him/her.
And the starting towns would be affected by luck. You might have got a crap terrain/town combo depending on which town you chose. Sure you won't know what other people got, but it's luck nonetheless and still affects everyone. People who study the map might have an even bigger advantage over others. And then town selection might be one-sided. I just want the game to not have too many variables. Visual effects is enough.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 17, 2002 03:29 PM |
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"For instance, if I built an Asylum that didn't offer any Dragons, I'd be confused and then have to consult the manual. I want to be able to read the manual once and never need to look at it again. I love manuals, but I don't like having to go back to them for things that I can't remember the first time, things such as "how come this town ....."."
Well, in this case you would notice this by the Dragon Dwelling being grayed out in the Town screen. This is already the way it works, when you build one level 2 dwelling the other(s) are grayed out.
I can't see the designers offering this in an expansion without supporting that you upgrade Heroes 4 standard product maps.
Basically, what this means is that you would be able to enable a dwelling in the map Editor even though that dwelling would normally not appear in that town when placed on the terrain in question. That is I'm suggesting what should be the default when placing towns. Then the Map Designer can overrride this if needed in a campaign. However, in most cases the designer will stick with the default but you would never be able to know that beforehand in any case.
And I can anyway see that the Designers wanting to do this in a lot more cases in heroes 4 than in heroes 3. If you make a story evolving around say Black Dragons, then you'd likely remove the options for building Hydras in all Asylums to force the player to build for the Black Dragons. And it would work the same way for every other level 2- level 4 creature.
"Someone who's new would want something streamlined and easy to understand. But if there's exceptions to the rule for multiple variables (such as terrain) it would confuse him/her."
The user would simply be confronted with a grayed-out building when entering the Hall screen.
"And the starting towns would be affected by luck. You might have got a crap terrain/town combo depending on which town you chose."
I've already said that starting towns would always have its native terrain, to avoid "Luck".
In aproperly designed map, you could question if the biggest penalty for starting with an Academy on Swamp terrain is the movement penalties you inflict on yourself or the production penalties I'm proposing.
People who cheat and study the map will always have an advantage. The only way to avoid that is to prevent people from opening Maps in the Map Editor, and even then you can't prevent people from playing the Map and get information that way.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted February 17, 2002 10:01 PM |
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What a fantastically well thought out idea. It looks workable, logical, and would add a depth of realism and stategic/tactical complextity.
If it is added to the game I think I will have to take the disc out and use it as a skeet pidgeon.
Lets not add an aspect to the game that's only purpose is to give us a quagmire of unneeded frustration.
If they are going to add all these computations to the game I would rather see the creature experience idea fleshed out than a native soil bonus.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 18, 2002 12:05 AM |
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If they are going to add all these computations to the game I would rather see the creature experience idea fleshed out than a native soil bonus.
Seriously, who have ever worried about how many creatures a town produces? The game handles all the computations for you and you just take what you can get and the creature types you can get.
Take the legion parts, just understaning how those worked in conjunction with all other bonuses is a minor science, it's documented nowhere and it's not always logical.
It seems that players worry about the layout of the map and which castles to conquer before they've seen the map they're going to play.
Players seems to want to be able to build up every town according to their own wishes. Well, you have some frustration coming your way. If you have taken an enemy castle, the enemy may now have built for Genies when you wanted Naga, or perhaps they've built for Titans and you wanted Dragon Golems.
Oh woe me... The game is destroyed and I have to restart the scenario and hope that the computer builds the enemy/neutral towns the way I want it.
Seriously, the way to play different towns is to make maps who have dedicated areas where you start with each town. If you play Asylum, you start in the middle of a swamp somewhere, if you play Academy you start in snow-landscape and so on and so forth.
All the best maps I've played in Heroes 3 have this arrangement, and I don't see it being any different in heroes 4.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted February 18, 2002 03:01 AM |
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Just how many factors should we include on town creature growth? We already have, Nobility, town castle and grail structure. On top of those you want to add terrain bonus. Lets say you've built up your fort, have expert nobility and the grailis +50% if you add another +50% for terrain you are giving a tremendous advantage to those who are lucky enough to have their town appear on friendly land. That would give the grandmaster nobility hero 4 black dragons each week instead of 2.
This bonus would not really affect maps that have fixed towns, since all players would have the same advantage. It only would effect Maps with random towns. Thus making those maps inherently unbalanced and up to the luck of the draw.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2002 03:34 AM |
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The user would simply be confronted with a grayed-out building when entering the Hall screen.
The question the new user might not understand is the "why" of it. Thus the need to check the manual's rules.
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I've already said that starting towns would always have its native terrain, to avoid "Luck".
So you want the terrain to be "random"? In other words, if everyone picks the same necro town, there would be a lot of lava on the map (or whatever its native terrain is)?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 18, 2002 09:20 AM |
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Edited By: Djive on 8 Mar 2002
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"The question the new user might not understand is the "why" of it. Thus the need to check the manual's rules."
This is a common occurence in Heroes 3. Happens a lot in Campaigns and many scenarios also disable buildings in towns. It's even so that sometimes Town automatically build themselves, and you can get bonuses (or penalties) if you own a town on a certain day.
Random Maps doesn't have these all that often, but without a Random Map generator I believe players would learn the game through the shipped scenarios and campaigns.
And I'd be quite surprised if these don't sport an ample amount of disabled dwellings.
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I've already said that starting towns would always have its native terrain, to avoid "Luck".
"So you want the terrain to be "random"? In other words, if everyone picks the same necro town, there would be a lot of lava on the map (or whatever its native terrain is)?"
The Map maker has this option when designing the town, and it should be the default for towns a player starts a game with.
A few tiles in and around the starting towns simply change to the town types native terrain.
So terrain around the starting town adapt to the town type.
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I don't see why we shouldn't add more factors that can affect Town Growth. If you have many factors then they often tend to balance each other. Good Map Makers will find a way to turn this feature into an advantage as it makes things more flexible, but still allows for the old arrangement.
"It only would effect Maps with random towns. Thus making those maps inherently unbalanced and up to the luck of the draw."
I said that there would be an option in the Map Editor for the Town which enables you to specify that the Random Town will always have Native Terrain. This would mean that there would be no Terrain penalty for it.
Try recruiting Nomads in a Swamp and see how many takers you get on the idea.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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