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| Thread: H5 Custom Map Requests (experimental) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 24, 2011 10:49 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 04:17, 02 Aug 2011.
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H5 Custom Map Requests (experimental)
I would like to try this:
First... a note: If you stopped playing H5 single-player maps a long time ago due to the crummy A.I., you should give the game a go again with Quantomas’ new 5.5 A.I. <IMO> The game is far more challenging now and installation is very easy. As far as I know, MP on-line is a no-go but <imo> both Single-Mission and MP-HotSeat experiences are greatly enhanced.
I am interested in making some maps for others but rather than a normal approach, I would like to try this idea. If you are wanting a “custom-made map to 'your specifications'” , submit the following specs and then give me a little time.
Why? You may ask. Well, I am always wanting to get better/faster at map-making (5.5 is very promising to me)but I am also interested to see if it is possible for me to “fairly-quickly” make a map that meets the needs of the request. So, hopefully I will at least get a few folks who realize they’ve nothing to lose in this madness and may end up with a fine map to play. Further, I don’t care if you end up using it and doing your own work on it. If this is a time-saver for you, that’s fine too.(e.g. if you're a scripter but don't like the grunt-work)
You can spell out as much detail as you like but just remember the more specific the map conditions the more time that will be required. If I’ve missed some criteria then add it.
Copy and paste the following in your response-post and then edit. If you don’t care about a choice on a line, then delete the numbered line.
1.Multiplayer or Single-Mission?
2.Map Size and 1 or 2 levels?
3.Water present?
4.How many players?=Human and/or. A.I.? and if are any “A.I. only“? Teams?
5.Specific town-types. = What factions wanted, if random towns are wanted or some combination of both. Town specialties?
6.Faction-dwellings present?
7.Number of towns per-player
8.Conditions of starting towns. What buildings are there to start?… to full-blown?.
9.Free-Resources= None, little, lots
10.Heroes, whether standard or campaign picks.
11.Strength of guarding neutrals. Easy, normal or strong. (what this means can be worked out as with other areas)
12.Artifacts= Random, specifically wanted and also those not desired
13.Spells not wanted or a must-have.
14.Some idea of the “access to enemies“. E.g. the usual RMG with double connecting portals-(guarded by LVL 5 or 6 neutrals), difficult access {Epic-war} or whatever variation but clearly explained.
15.As far as buildings that you would want present, it may be easier to say what you do-not want present? E.g. memory mentors or Cartographers.
16.If there will be PC controlled players; Are you using the vanilla H5 A.I. or the new 5.5 E.E.? Q’s new A.I. is far more challenging. This answer is more about my awareness and maybe learning some things on down the road in the area of starting conditions.
Fyi, <imo> How a map was first set-up in trying to accommodate the old A.I. means that older maps need to be reviewed as to desired results under the new A.I. So, some part of this is...testing.
17. War-machine cost. Towns decide? or the cheap ones available near towns?
18. Name for your map
19. Of course the terrain will be my choice but that should be the value of doing this. You will know what is on the maps but not the map’s layout. I suppose I could ask; Do you prefer the traditional skins to a faction (e.g. dirt for Necro, Sand for Academy) or don’t care?
20. Lighting? Night or day. (I am best at night-light-work)There's also a couple of settings for fog or rain.
If I've missed something...add the criteria or idea and I'll update this first post.
This offer is extended to anyone still playing H5, active member here or not.
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"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 12:31 PM |
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I once had an idea about a H3 multiplayer map but never managed to finish it. The idea was basically to limit the use of cities and push players out to the field.
This could be done by limiting city buildings (only tavern, marketplace, guild and first and second level dwellings available) and having a vast number of prisons, taverns, creature dwellings, hill forts, and refuge camps on the map. The usual getting-all-mines step could be completely eliminated because there's no need for any resources besides gold. This could make map layout unique, because the usual "city zones" with the isolated starting city and one of each mine are not needed.
There would also probably have to be many neutral towns on the map just to prevent players from too quickly losing due to seven days without town loss condition. Also, since there are many adventure map dwellings, caravans will probably be used a lot.
so my specs would be:
1. multiplayer
2. map size huge, 1 level map
3. no water present
4. 6 players, free for all, no AI only teams
5. random towns
6. lots of faction- and some neutral dwellings
7. one starting town, many easily accessible neutral towns scattered across the map
8. all towns start with tavern only, all buildings except mage guild, marketplace, and "first day dwellings" disabled
9. lots of free resources. Gold mines are the only mines that are needed
10. standard heroes
11. guardians need to be challenging but i think having no town dwellings will account for that, so… I'll say normal.
12. random
13. no instant travel or town portal
14. player zones should be as abstract or non-existent as possible, so that you might run in to enemies anywhere. The map should be very open.
15. definitely no cartographers, that would pretty much ruin the point
16. I am of course using Q's AI. I want to see how it handles a slightly less usual kind of map, does it use secondary heroes etc.
17. war machines available near starting towns
18. I'm bad at names… maybe you could come up with a suitable one whilst working on the map.
19. since towns are random, terrains can be anything
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 31, 2011 04:20 PM |
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OK, I follow you. Hope you like the caravan battles Because of the nature of the map that will actually be more important than on a normal map.
{quote]4. 6 players, free for all, no AI only teams
Then 3 teams of 1 human and 1 A.I.?
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5. random towns
Concerning the faction dwellings I would guess levels 1-3 and no (4-7)s? The former will match the starting town but I suppose since neutrals are going to be a big part of things, then maybe "further out... have some random 4-7s too?
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16. I am of course using Q's AI. I want to see how it handles a slightly less usual kind of map, does it use secondary heroes etc.
I think this will be an interesting test.
Would you like to have factions remain till actually cornered and beaten? I can elimate the 7-days to take a town req. That's how the HoD template works w/o towns.
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 31, 2011 07:55 PM |
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Then 3 teams of 1 human and 1 A.I.?
That will be ok.
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Concerning the faction dwellings I would guess levels 1-3 and no (4-7)s? The former will match the starting town but I suppose since neutrals are going to be a big part of things, then maybe "further out... have some random 4-7s too?
Yes, mostly low level dwellings near the starting towns and more high level dwellings the further out you get. That way players will be encouraged to be more mobile.
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Would you like to have factions remain till actually cornered and beaten? I can elimate the 7-days to take a town req. That's how the HoD template works w/o towns.
Yes, please eliminate the 7-day req. I would have asked for it but I wasn't sure if one could do that.
This already seems promising. I have played some of your maps and they have all been quite good. I think this idea has some great potential too. I'm looking forward to this.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 31, 2011 08:23 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 20:24, 31 Jul 2011.
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Yes, please eliminate the 7-day req. I would have asked for it but I wasn't sure if one could do that.
We'll set it up that way to start and ofc can also change it later if it proves too taxing
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This already seems promising. I have played some of your maps and they have all been quite good. I think this idea has some great potential too. I'm looking forward to this.
I've only released "Dread Realms" after Q gave it a solid thumbs-up. Do you mean the maps I've posted in my "Need-Testers" thread?
Thanks for the nod regardless. I am still hard at work in learning how to make good gaming experiences. This sounds silly but a recent discovery of mine has been the gulf that exists between adventuring and competitive fans. I'm adventure all the way, so keeping the other-side in view while making a map is a new focus for me. As I'm sure you know, they are at times worlds-apart as to what constitutes a good map, just like the present battle concerning what should be done to improve H6? And Treebeard answers; Depends on whom, whom you ask.
Btw, about your idea. A friend had the same a few months back and is still tweaking it, I'm pretty sure. Great minds do think alike.
Anyway your map is already well-underway and I'm heading back to it now. I am enjoying the opportunity, TY for the...ahem..."work"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 01, 2011 06:24 PM |
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I always valued the adventuring part and the competitiveness pretty equally. I never really cared about story in a map, though. If I play a custom game, I want to play as "plain" a game as possible. This is because, as an analytic person, I enjoy primarily the game play mechanics and the strategic part of heroes, which are most strongly present in a "balanced" map. I never wanted to go competitive though because I mainly like to play heroes to relax. A part of that relaxation is also the atmosphere of the game, and that's where the adventuring thing comes in.
The adventuring atmosphere I think was easier to accomplish in previous heroes games, just look at heroes3: even the colors of that game are just so much more interesting than in heroes5. What heroes5 has that other heroes titles don't have is more complex mechanics, like a more interesting skill system and more tactical battles. That is what constantly brought me back to heroes 5, despite heroes3 having, in my opinion, better music and more mature graphics. Now that we are also finally getting a decent AI I might make a more permanent switch from 3 to 5, and this is why I need to find interesting maps (another thing that vanilla homm5 didn't have a lot of).
So, at least to me, the ideal map is one that lets me explore the inner mechanics and strategies of the game (as well as Q's AI), while still providing a relaxing and atmospheric adventure experience.
However, regardless of which type of player one is, I think the most important part of a good map is replayability. Being able to play the same scenario from different perspectives, and of course being able to play together with your friends.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 02, 2011 05:14 AM |
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So, at least to me, the ideal map is one that lets me explore the inner mechanics and strategies of the game (as well as Q's AI), while still providing a relaxing and atmospheric adventure experience.
 I doubt all players here realize that H5 and all of their old maps that they grew tired of...will play much differently now. At this point, I am glad that I came to the scene late and don't have much out there because I know that I would feel I need to revamp and re-test every map.
Well, I knew I would forget something so I just added a #20 to the OP. Day or night?
I prefer to use darker settings just because the map can be impacted with loads of color but it's your call.
That brings me to my next question, should forts, citadel and castles be enabled?, or are you not wanting any or all of these as well.
I've set the towns to starting only with a "tavern" as you wanted but the "village hall" is mandatory so they will each start with 2 structures.
Also, with zero creatures in towns that will limit town-specialzations some. What if we make some creatures enabled and make the starting towns specialize in them? It could go like this;
The three human towns lvl-2s, A.I. towns lvl-1s and all of the neutral towns have lvl-3s enabled but town-specilizations focus on +/-moral, +/-luck, walls,towers, etc. instead?
One more strategy thought;
Since large armies are not going to be available and gaining experience retarded to some degree, I have thought about having single "dolmans" at all 12 towns. Also, (all free) 1 level-2 spell shrine, 2 witch huts <imo>(this will make some important choices to start out)and also a free Sylannas at each starting town only. If this sounds good to you then we can go from those start conditions and;
A. As you said have LOTS of chests for gold or level-ups
b. Put more dolmans, huts and Sylannas in between the towns
c. Both or something else?
____________
"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 02, 2011 05:38 PM |
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Edited by Nitramar at 17:40, 02 Aug 2011.
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I prefer to use darker settings just because the map can be impacted with loads of color but it's your call.
My call? Aren't you the one who can actually see the map? Surely you should know better what looks good. Besides, if you have a personal preference I'm sure your motivation will be better if you can do things your own style. Even if I'm the "customer" I still think the map should look like it's your work. I'm a supporter of artistic freedom.
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That brings me to my next question, should forts, citadel and castles be enabled?, or are you not wanting any or all of these as well.
I think the more defensive structures cities have, the more valuable targets they will be. Furthermore, valuable targets will be worth extra defending, which, coupled with the fact that cities are easier to defend thanks to the castles, will lead to players not finding it worthwile to venture too far from their starting town, which was pretty much the point of this map request. So, maybe forts but probably no citadels and definately no castles.
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Also, with zero creatures in towns that will limit town-specialzations some. What if we make some creatures enabled and make the starting towns specialize in them? It could go like this;
The three human towns lvl-2s, A.I. towns lvl-1s and all of the neutral towns have lvl-3s enabled but town-specilizations focus on +/-moral, +/-luck, walls,towers, etc. instead?
I didn't even remember there were town specializations. This suggestion looks all right, though.
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Since large armies are not going to be available and gaining experience retarded to some degree, I have thought about having single "dolmans" at all 12 towns. Also, (all free) 1 level-2 spell shrine, 2 witch huts <imo>(this will make some important choices to start out)and also a free Sylannas at each starting town only. If this sounds good to you then we can go from those start conditions and;
A. As you said have LOTS of chests for gold or level-ups
b. Put more dolmans, huts and Sylannas in between the towns
c. Both or something else?
I'm torn between a and c. Indeed, leveling will be very limited without this kind of structures. Also, dolmens and sylannas enable players to use many heroes instead of just one main. On the other hand, if heroes get to level up a lot, destructive magic heroes will be very powerful because of the likely to be small armies. I'm going to say c, but it has to balanced might-magic wise.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 02, 2011 05:54 PM |
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[quoteMy call? Aren't you the one who can actually see the map? Surely you should know better what looks good. Besides, if you have a personal preference I'm sure your motivation will be better if you can do things your own style. Even if I'm the "customer" I still think the map should look like it's your work. I'm a supporter of artistic freedom.
OK Just wanted to give you the choice. I really like the midnight-colors but...some folks prefer the day-settings
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So, maybe forts but probably no citadels and definately no castles.
OK, we will start with Forts = "enabled but not built".
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I didn't even remember there were town specializations. This suggestion looks all right, though.
This "may" prove interesting. Since Heroes are going to be iffy with Morale because of mixed neutrals and their few faction creatures, a towns bonus of -/+ 1 moral or luck may have an impact at times.
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I'm going to say c, but it has to balanced might-magic wise.
I'll start there, ...test and then change anything as needed.
____________
"Do your own research"
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 05, 2011 11:59 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 00:11, 06 Aug 2011.
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"Nitramar's Plague" is ready and a bonus map.
N P
A few notes:
1. I ended up setting all towns to no creature dwellings. My idea did not look that good when I test-started. All have 1-3 lvls near the town and neutrals nearby.
2. I put lvl 1 spell-shrines at each "starting" town instead of lvl-2s.
3. You were right, in order for the towns to be true random, I could NOT set specifications for the second-six towns like I wanted. I always makes maps with factions in mind, so this was a good experience for me.
4. The 7-day rule should not apply to any player.
5. All towns start with Village Hall and Tavern.
6. All factions can be played. It may be that you might find variations and might like that.
I did a very-quick test and I won a close, interesting battle This may be pretty good out of the gate, but I anticipate some tweaking will be needed. I tried to stay away from mirror image without straying too far.
For the fun of it I made a mirror-map and then made some serious adjustments. This map goes the other way. All towns are fully built
Battle for Nitramar
I sort of rushed this trying to have it to you by this weekend. Hopefully my hasty quality checks were valid. <L> Let me know any problems you have.
Edit= What the heck?! One link I added quickly but the other took 5 times and had to abbreviate?
____________
"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 06, 2011 07:35 AM |
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Thanks! That was faster than I thought. I forgot to mention that I have some quite limited testing time, since I'm sort of stuck in the army. However, I'm home this weekend so I'm happy you "rushed" it a little. Otherwise I couldn't have tested it for another two weeks.
I'm starting up your map now. I'll tell you what I think tomorrow.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 06, 2011 11:43 PM |
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I'm home this weekend so I'm happy you "rushed" it a little. Otherwise I couldn't have tested it for another two weeks.
Glad I did now. One thing I probably should expain; is that part of the experiment for me; is to see if I can "quickly" make a "good map", meaning meets your expectations. Another aspect is; Can I let it go? It is very easy for me to get lost in landscaping details and eye-candy adds nothing to the battle.
btw, I forgot this...I realized one possible issue with the random-town/weanie troop combo. The Fortress may pop up and it has that "guard post" Might give that player a good defensive advantage?, but I don't know for sure. You'll have to assess that.
____________
"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 07, 2011 08:17 AM |
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So I finished playing the map yesterday. It was a really unique experience. It actually played much like I had hoped. Some observations:
I started as red (sylvan) with yellow (haven) as my ally. Yellow immediately started exploring and expanding. By the time I had left my starting area yellow already had two cities and shortly after that it captured a third one. I felt like yellow had a much easier start than red, because he could directly advance in multiple directions whereas I had only one way to go. Having said that, I did play a little too passively. I started as if I were playing a normal game, whereas the AI immediately adapted its strategy to this map.
So anyway yellow soon captured a fourth city (!) and I still had only one because yellow had taken all the neutral towns that were around the starting area. Day 4 of week 2 green player appeared with his main hero and captured one of yellows cities. I defeated this hero using summon elementals (summoning with fire warriors is pretty good on this map) and effectively snatched one of yellow's cities. Soon orange appears with two heroes and starts terrorising yellows territory. Henceforward yellows stops expanding and just runs back and forth between his towns for the rest of the game (yellow's main hero was for the entire game the strongest hero according to den of thieves and also the only one to gain that "trail" behind him).
Since yellow has all the towns west of my territory I decide to go south. I found a city south east of my place but every time I tried to go there blue appeared with a strong hero so I had to stay and defend. At this point I had two main heroes and three secondaries. After I finally managed to beat blue's hero (using three heroes: two kamikaze spell casters and my main) the game became pretty easy. In the end I had three main heroes and manged to dominate the entire map. Interestingly, the AI got very defensive since month 2 and sudden attacks didn't occur that often anymore.
The AI seemed to adapt to this map pretty well: it used many heroes and heavily focused on spell casting and war machines. Still, it used its secondary heroes mainly to support one main hero. Sometimes it had 3 heroes running back and forth just swapping armies for several turns (I played on hard with normal lookahead, probably should have put lookahead to hard too).
As I said the AI got really passive, particularly yellow once he had gotten four cities.
There weren't a lot of caravan wars, something I had hoped for. Probably because you can't hire from refuge camps and confluxes using caravans.
If you got the same elementals from two confluxes or the same creatures from two refuge camps you really got quite an edge. To balance this out, I think there should be slightly more normal dwellings that always give the same creature.
I felt like the map was pretty confined. Not much to explore outside of your forts. Maybe the neutral cities aren't that necessary: if they were replaced by creature dwellings, treasures and mines there would be more adventuring and less fortifying and defending your cities. There would also be more caravans to intercept and more use for seconadry heroes flagging all the locations.
Also, there was a lot of mountains restricting your movement. Overall, I've always felt that way about heroes5 maps: there's much less emptiness (possibly because plain grass looks much more boring in 3D, or are heroes5 maps just really smaller?)
I really enjoyed this map though. It was a very refreshing, different kind of game. The only thing I miss is more adventuring, more openness. But that's not a big deal, as I said I always tend to feel that way about heroes5.
I think this has been a succesful experiment so far. The map was good and it met my specs pretty well. I had a lot of fun playing it. I was also impressed by your speed. Some things probably still need a little tweakin and balancing, like the below:
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btw, I forgot this...I realized one possible issue with the random-town/weanie troop combo. The Fortress may pop up and it has that "guard post" Might give that player a good defensive advantage?, but I don't know for sure. You'll have to assess that.
I just looked it up: Number of Defenders = 5 * Town_Level * Month_Number.
That's quite a lot for this map. That tough blue player I encountered had over 50 defenders and those were already pretty dangerous because I had to concentrate on killing his 12 water elementals and 8 fire elementals first (my strongest stack during the entire game was 5 rakshasa ranis).
Anyway, thanks for the map!
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 07, 2011 10:55 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 11:07, 07 Aug 2011.
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Great testing-feedback!
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So I finished playing the map yesterday. It was a really unique experience. It actually played much like I had hoped.
This reporting is awesome info. This is exactly the kind of feedback that I've been looking to attain at times with my own ideas etc.
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I felt like yellow had a much easier start than red, because he could directly advance in multiple directions whereas I had only one way to go. Having said that, I did play a little too passively.
Remember I said that I intended to make "starts" a little varied. One trick that I learned long ago in H3 map-making was that you can build in difficulties with each faction. So while a player say; "plays a game on normal", that can be quite different if there are terrain and access issues that are varied between factions. The thing is though, it can be easily un-fun if a player's mind-set is not up for the challenge. A problem that I have, like most map-makers is symmetry. Balancing is easiest by creating equal...everything. Since I have really only started venturing out into the big-bad-world of other's opinions, I am still learning the art of balance. Even if the time comes that I am comfortable with my skills...there will still be negativity, some folks live on the stuff.
What I really love about your feedback is you have given me a great gaming-report and that is something very important to work. Crap like "it's too big for MP" (when I had clearly stated it is impossible size that should be good for Hot-seat)How to respond to that? "Thanks man! I didn't know what size the map was...thanks again, oh wonderful teamplayer you. sheesh.
I can read between the lines Nitramar and see some disappointment. But you chose to be constructive and I like that. This is no easy experiment because I am trying to bring to life a map and not just do my thing but do yours instead...the best that I can. It's a fine-line to create in this fashion.
This is not really my map, what it is...is what I thought you sought.<L> I'm not sure why, but adventuring didn't ring in my brain, it seemed more like a "dogfight between friends in hot seat mode".
FYI, I have recently discovered an odd clash; When humans are the enemy, the scenery is not very important to most. However this is BS to some that like to play together and adventure in hot-seat. So...If I am going to hit the nail on the head, then I think I've just learned to flush that out better at the beginning of the map
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I started as if I were playing a normal game, whereas the AI immediately adapted its strategy to this map.
Imagine what Q's end-stage is going to be. I think it will change some of the things you witnessed, to my understanding; it will involve the 2nd Hero for factions. Also, the look-ahead is staggering
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The AI seemed to adapt to this map pretty well: it used many heroes and heavily focused on spell casting and war machines. Still, it used its secondary heroes mainly to support one main hero. Sometimes it had 3 heroes running back and forth just swapping armies for several turns (I played on hard with normal lookahead, probably should have put lookahead to hard too).
You can alter the settings in many ways, that is one of the strengths of 5.5. <imo> Again the SES will be ground-breaking.
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There weren't a lot of caravan wars, something I had hoped for. Probably because you can't hire from refuge camps and confluxes using caravans.
I may be the only one but I will not place any neutral-dwellings on maps made for me,. Probably because it became a good work-around for me, with the silly vanilla A.I. ND's were top priority along with oblisks. I axed all that and the A.I. played way better. They are great for a map like yours though...perfect in fact.
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If you got the same elementals from two confluxes or the same creatures from two refuge camps you really got quite an edge. To balance this out, I think there should be slightly more normal dwellings that always give the same creature.
From my pov, that was hit or miss all along. Are you a map-maker? Or would you like me to add some more? Easy to do.
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I felt like the map was pretty confined.
Keep in mind that I knew heroes could freely roam w/o a town, so I was gunning for a few of you...not wanting to make the loooooong-chase-down-damnit!
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Not much to explore outside of your forts. Maybe the neutral cities aren't that necessary: if they were replaced by creature dwellings, treasures and mines there would be more adventuring and less fortifying and defending your cities. There would also be more caravans to intercept and more use for seconadry heroes flagging all the locations.
Leave the towns. I can delete some mountains and toss in some more areas for you. Keep in mind with no mining needed; this took out a lot of activity. Like I said, MP dogfight-hotseat good, but solo-adventuring? hmmm not so good. At least not for me.
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I think this has been a succesful experiment so far. The map was good and it met my specs pretty well. I had a lot of fun playing it.
We're not finished yet.
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btw, I forgot this...I realized one possible issue with the random-town/weanie troop combo. The Fortress may pop up and it has that "guard post" Might give that player a good defensive advantage?, but I don't know for sure. You'll have to assess that.
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I just looked it up: Number of Defenders = 5 * Town_Level * Month_Number.
I can't eliminate them from popping up on "full-random". The only way to avoid it would be to select what towns are on the map. Personally I would prefer it that way, because it would make town-specialities a good mix. On this sort of map, I think they could be very impacting.
I plan to alter the map (I liked some of my ideas)and make a normal-build version. If you want it, I'll make sure you get that too.
Did you try the Hyde version?
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Anyway, thanks for the map!
Enjoying the challenge.
Btw, would you like to a part of my map-making? You did such a great job with feedback, I have several maps of all purposes that need to be tested. I want to perfect my Middle-Earth maps. Also, I am working another map at the moment that should be Epic for me. It's called "Dragon's Teeth". Part of it has been finished for a long time (sorry NaadirSlo) but now I am very glad I sat on it because I am getting much better at this. It's about nature being turned upside-down because Light and Dark Elves are fighting and Men and Dwarves have allied against them both.
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 07, 2011 01:54 PM |
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Remember I said that I intended to make "starts" a little varied.
Of course I noticed this was intentional. It's actually good to have different starts. Besides if they're on the same team it just adds to the team playing expierience: two players on the same team would ideally have different roles. I just got a bit annoyed at my ally for having received the defending role.
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I can read between the lines Nitramar and see some disappointment. But you chose to be constructive and I like that. This is no easy experiment because I am trying to bring to life a map and not just do my thing but do yours instead...the best that I can. It's a fine-line to create in this fashion.
I'm not really disappointed, I just tried to compare my original vision with the result. As I'm sure you know, when one has a vision of something and tries to recreate this vision in reality, the result is never quite the same. It's like when I have a new piece of music playing in my head. When I write it down or record it something disappears. It is the magic of imagination. In real life, nothing is that perfect. So I'm not really disappointed. I guess everything I write gets a sort of pessimistic tone. This might have something to do with my being Finnish, or the fact that I don't use emoticons.
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This is not really my map, what it is...is what I thought you sought.<L> I'm not sure why, but adventuring didn't ring in my brain, it seemed more like a "dogfight between friends in hot seat mode".
You are correct, the dogfight part was the primary thing I sought. I think I just have some of that HoMM3 nostalgia left in me, where every map seemed like an adventure, regardless of what map I played. Really I think the music and graphics accounted for the most part of this. Frankly, I don't think I would have enjoyed the map more if it had included more adventure elements.
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FYI, I have recently discovered an odd clash; When humans are the enemy, the scenery is not very important to most. However this is BS to some that like to play together and adventure in hot-seat. So...If I am going to hit the nail on the head, then I think I've just learned to flush that out better at the beginning of the map
HoMM has two major elements: strategy and role playing/adventure. When playing against human opponents, strategy is the main attraction, because it's all about competition. The adventure part is important for people who want to embrace the story and be a part of it. For myself, strategy is the more important one, but if I don't find enough competition I start paying more attention to the environment. I don't think it will be possible to make maps that entirely satisfy both parties.
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Keep in mind that I knew heroes could freely roam w/o a town, so I was gunning for a few of you...not wanting to make the loooooong-chase-down-damnit!
Actually this is a good point.
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Not much to explore outside of your forts. Maybe the neutral cities aren't that necessary: if they were replaced by creature dwellings, treasures and mines there would be more adventuring mobility and less fortifying and defending your cities.
Fixed. I think that created the confusion with adventure vs dogfight. I shouldn't use the same word for two meanings.
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Leave the towns. I can delete some mountains and toss in some more areas for you.
If this doesn't cause you too much work I should appreciate it. The map is good as it is, but I think it could be even better if there were more possible directions. The option of turning left or right is usually more interesting than constantly retreating when some enemy shows up right in front of you.
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I can't eliminate them from popping up on "full-random". The only way to avoid it would be to select what towns are on the map. Personally I would prefer it that way, because it would make town-specialities a good mix. On this sort of map, I think they could be very impacting.
Can you not just disable special buildings? However, if you have a good idea about those town specials I think that might be worth a try.
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I plan to alter the map (I liked some of my ideas)and make a normal-build version. If you want it, I'll make sure you get that too.
Sure I want it.
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Did you try the Hyde version?
Not yet. I have regrettably limited time. I'll try it out as soon as I can though.
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Btw, would you like to a part of my map-making? You did such a great job with feedback, I have several maps of all purposes that need to be tested. I want to perfect my Middle-Earth maps. Also, I am working another map at the moment that should be Epic for me. It's called "Dragon's Teeth". Part of it has been finished for a long time (sorry NaadirSlo) but now I am very glad I sat on it because I am getting much better at this. It's about nature being turned upside-down because Light and Dark Elves are fighting and Men and Dwarves have allied against them both.
I'd be happy to help. I'm always looking for new maps anyway. Of course I have to warn you again, I'm pretty short on time (an issue that should be fixed in the beginning of next year).
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 07, 2011 05:34 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 17:42, 07 Aug 2011.
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I just got a bit annoyed at my ally for having received the defending role.
Yeah, the Turbo-charged A.I. does not mess around. I think it is great now, when I check the thieves-den and my Hero is not in the top three. This new A.I. has really changed my map's difficulties. Since all of my maps need to be re-evaluated, I've only scratched the surface but one thing I've already found out; I have to forget the defending Hero option if I have the other settings turned-up. I don't have much of an army left when I meet the bad-boys and girls. Where I intend to go here is; playing around with strong hero starting options and then advising players to use that perk too.
Btw, what would you think about me setting factions (not changing towns) and creating focused lvl.-10 heroes (they can summon-troops immediately)for each and eliminating the Hutz? I could also place Sphinxs but this will have to wait for the A.I. SES.
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I'm not really disappointed, I just tried to compare my original vision with the result. As I'm sure you know, when one has a vision of something and tries to recreate this vision in reality, the result is never quite the same.
I don't have that problem. <lying through my dragon's teeth> The biggest disppointment for me is the limited amount of stuff I can use in the Editor for making environments. If I was actually a part of a team that could provide the folks with earth-shaping tools? Katy-bar-the-door! Folks would be well pleased. So I understand your frustration.The Editor in H5 is amazing in some ways but seriously lacks..."flexibilty". There is much above my head on HoMM 1-6 but one thing I am certain of is; I have a very wide-screen vision as to what an HoMM Editor could be. Heck, I'd bring tools to "tools" for the people to use. In example, (markkur my words...hope that works for a Finn)one day there will be some sort of "Morpher". Then, I could take a jpg of any object and i.e. easily alter it's shape and color to make it possible to insert it into a fantasy environment and then insert it inside the game with one-click-ease.
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This might have something to do with my being Finnish, or the fact that I don't use emoticons.
I don't like the little circles but I use them because I think they serve the purpose to convey a mood and this should help breach the barrier between lingos etc.
So have you read the Kalevala? <sp?>
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You are correct, the dogfight part was the primary thing I sought.
Good, I at least got that right. Yes, music is key, HoMM 3's is the best, I play it when I draw to help set the mood...and relax.
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I think I just have some of that HoMM3 nostalgia left in me, where every map seemed like an adventure, regardless of what map I played.
I understand. I feel like CSL and JRRT must have "once upon a time". They had to "write what they could not find to read".<L>
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I don't think it will be possible to make maps that entirely satisfy both parties.
I agree but will try to keep it on my radar screen anyway.
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Fixed. I think that created the confusion with adventure vs dogfight. I shouldn't use the same word for two meanings.
Yeah that clarifies. I'll keep that in mind
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Leave the towns. I can delete some mountains and toss in some more areas for you.
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If this doesn't cause you too much work I should appreciate it. The map is good as it is, but I think it could be even better if there were more possible directions.
Too much work? No Way. Briefly; HoMM is a coping-mechanism for me. In RL I have an arthritic virus (best guess) that is a real pain to live with TY, TY here all...
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Can you not just disable special buildings? However, if you have a good idea about those town specials I think that might be worth a try.
Goodness, yes I can...duh. I hate it when my brain seriously farts. Hmmm, wonder if that's where old-fart came from? Let's give the specials a go. I think it would be perfect in this use. It maybe too much, we can test it.
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I'd be happy to help. I'm always looking for new maps anyway. Of course I have to warn you again, I'm pretty short on time (an issue that should be fixed in the beginning of next year).
Excellent. No expectations, when it works 4U.
Btw, What's your situation with the Army. Is this the mandatory req. I've ready about in several different countries?
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"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 07, 2011 07:22 PM |
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Btw, what would you think about me setting factions (not changing towns) and creating focused lvl.-10 heroes (they can summon-troops immediately)for each and eliminating the Hutz? I could also place Sphinxs but this will have to wait for the A.I. SES.
I think this might work better for the "opposite" version of the map.
Huts and dolmens were good because they allow the player to create multiple secondary or even main heroes.
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I don't like the little circles but I use them because I think they serve the purpose to convey a mood and this should help breach the barrier between lingos etc.
This is true. For some reason I just have stupid principles that restrict me. I just decided once that I should never use them. It beats me why I had to make such a stupid decision but I'm sticking with it.
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So have you read the Kalevala? <sp?>
That appears to be a standard question. Truth is, I haven't read the whole thing (insert shame here), just parts that I had to read because of school and some "childrens version" when I was younger. I intend to read the real deal sometime though.
Kalevala is something that all Finns know but not many read these days, because you are no longer forced to read it (earlier, schools used to make you memorize long parts of it by heart). However, all Finns have a bit of Kalevala in their soul. I can easily write in the Kalevala meter even though I haven't studied it in any way. I really feel kind of ashamed that I haven't read it: my ancestors were, afer all, Karelian poem singers.
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Btw, What's your situation with the Army. Is this the mandatory req. I've ready about in several different countries?
Yup. We have three choices: join the army, do civilian service or go to jail. I joined the army. The periods are either 180, 270 or 362 days if you choose military service. Civilian service is always 362 days. I became a squad leader, so for me it's 362.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 08, 2011 03:45 AM |
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[quoteI think this might work better for the "opposite" version of the map. Huts and dolmens were good because they allow the player to create multiple secondary or even main heroes.
Agreed
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...but I'm sticking with it.
Good man. I'm the same with letter writing. <imo> Many modern things are killing old forms of art. I'll use my old method from here onward with you...in your honor<L>
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So have you read the Kalevala? <sp?>
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That appears to be a standard question.
Really? Hmmm. guess Tolkien did Finland a great service. No, not anything about the Kalevala within Finland but making normally ignorant Americans (other countries as well)"like me" learn something about Finnish Lore. I think it is awesome that Finnish is the base for one of his invented Elvin languages, used in LotRs. The other is Welsh and that's in my family tree.<VBG>=VeryBigGrin
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Truth is, I haven't read the whole thing (insert shame here
Nah, I am a far better student now since I choose to be. Seems natural for us all.
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I really feel kind of ashamed that I haven't read it: my ancestors were, afer all, Karelian poem singers.
That is just plain old awesome. Believe it or not, I have a "Shire-poem" that I wrote in the tradition of alliterative heroic verse. A throw back to the Anglo-Saxon mead-hall poems. I thought about posting it here at HC but figured I would be hounded-off the forum<s>=smallsmile
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I became a squad leader, so for me it's 362.
A year eh. Well that will pass in a heart-beat. For grins; I know that years back my brother played a raved-on game in the army called "Squad Leader". It was/is? a serious tactical board game. He and a small group spent hours playing it.
Already working on ver. 2 of NP <SG>=SlyGrin
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"Do your own research"
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 11, 2011 10:02 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 02:22, 12 Aug 2011.
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Here is the 2nd version of Nitramar's Plague.
I know you're busy with RL, but it's here to eval when you can.
I've made a lot more 3-way intersections to create added mobility. In addition, I've added many more faction dwellings and some more adventure areas.
Edit= This has been re-uploaded after finding a problem with a couple of portals.
NP 2
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"Do your own research"
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 20, 2011 10:37 AM |
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Finally got back home again. I tried the new version earlier today.
At first the changes seemed very subtle, but as the game progressed I did notice the increased mobility potential. I no longer had to run back and forth as much as before.
The increase of faction dwellings was apparent, but I'm unsure as to how much that really affected the gameplay. Even in larger numbers, those unuppgraded low level units were still rather useless in comparison with elementals and refugees. Besides, you rarely got to assemble large numbers of them anyway. Maybe adding a couple of hill forts to the map would make the low level creatures more useful.
One thing I didn't mention earlier is the strength of guardians. Some places are guarded by "lots" of level five units which you will never find profitable to attack if the reward is that you get a gold mine which your enemy will capture in about four turns without having to fight anything. I also found a garrison guarded by some ridiculous ammount of troops in the upper left. What's the deal with that? That army is so strong that it is impossible in this map to ever beat it, and still, all I saw them guarding was Book of power, arcane library and some piles of gold. Is this really necessary? That area of the map could include some more dwellings or smaller treasures instead.
I still haven't really found the "far away from home" feel I was looking for in this map. The map does feel sort of crowded even though the size is "huge". It's almost as if I wanted it to be even larger, to have more space. Actually I wonder what it would be like with an underground (I realize these would be big changes so I'm not demanding anything, not wanting to be a difficult customer).
Q's AI seems to adapt to the map strategically but not tactically. It doesn't really make use of spells and war machines the way one needs to do in this map. Personally I used three heroes with very few troops which I just split to fill all seven slots and then started to take down the enemy with destructive magic. Meanwhile, enemy heroes would just wait with all of their units and cast things like weakness or vulnerability.
Overall, I think the map has improved. I don't think this map is finished quite yet, though. I just don't know what sould be changed. I'm running out of new ideas. Maybe you have some. Actually I might just wait for your public realease if you're still planning one.
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