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| Thread: What Really went Wrong with H5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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e-lysander
Known Hero
Lysander
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posted January 02, 2013 05:08 PM |
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Things it got wrong:
* Change of universe
* Strange camera wankery (town screens and battles)
* Not enough heroes per faction
* Not enough maps
* Awful story which had laughable voice-acting, and felt like a cheap knockoff of Warcraft 3
* Race-based factions, which gave way to repetition. Scouts, Blade Dancers, Druids, Hunters, Blood Maidens and Shadow Witches were all elves. Really, Ubisoft? Let's not forget the fact that 6 of the 7 Fortress units were dwarves.
* Talking of Warcraft 3 knockoffs... the Orcs, Necropolis and Sylvan
* Unneeded interface overhaul
* It was basically a broken game until the later updates. So many bugs and balance issues early on
Things it got right:
* The music!
* Decent engine. I'm sure I wasn't alone in presuming that after seeing the early screenshots of the game's new 3D look, that the engine would be completely different--but they were faithful in a lot of areas that mattered
* Despite a new universe, a new developer and a 3D engine, it still managed to maintain a similar "feel" to previous games
* Redeeming expansion. The game was fairly poor in quality, but Tribes of the East brought it up to a level of being a respectable entry in the Heroes series
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 02, 2013 05:23 PM |
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What's wrong with the new universe? In my opinion, Ashan is superior to H3's universe. Gave Ubi the option to make their own back story (though they failed at that  ) and innovate, rather than having to stick to the one from the past.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 02, 2013 06:25 PM |
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The new universe wasn't a problem. But everyone shouting "Griffin eternal!" while casting spells at every opportunity was a poor choice.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 03, 2013 04:12 AM |
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Ashan is superior to H3's universe because Ubisoft failed to make a decent back story???
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 03, 2013 04:38 AM |
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Quote:
Ashan is superior to H3's universe because Ubisoft failed to make a decent back story???
The idea to make a new universe was a good one, it was just not done well.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 03, 2013 05:37 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Ashan is superior to H3's universe because Ubisoft failed to make a decent back story???
The idea to make a new universe was a good one, it was just not done well.
This. And it would have also cause anger and much butthurt if they had used the original universe, since that one got blowed up by a Gelu.  There really is no pleasing some people...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted January 03, 2013 06:43 AM |
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The idea to make a new universe was unneeded, they could simply have chosen a new world in the universe (as H4 was to the rest of the series). Hells, the actual backstory was the only thing innovative about the universe, and even then, 'innovative' was simply a case of throwing out the 3DO/NWC lore and replacing it with a bunch of standard fantasy clichés.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 03, 2013 08:19 AM |
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Quote:
The idea to make a new universe was a good one, it was just not done well.
I guess you play good ideas then. 
And enough with this "the old world got destroyed" - educate yourselves you bunch of ignorants. 
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 03, 2013 10:17 AM |
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Quote:
I was addressing the universal balance. I know the specifics and exceptions well enough, in single or competive level. A few exceptions cannot make a rule and it is a given that in 2-3 week maps warmachines are just as if not better than destructive. That does not make a game balanced as the rest of the heroes are screwed over by comparison. Case in point a typical sylvan hero against a triple flaming ballista orc rush or just about any hero against a week 2 Havez. Odds minimal to nonexistent.
I agree with you that Havez is one of the most imba heroes among the 64. But that's just 1 out of 64.
The trouble that Sylvan hero faces can partly be addressed by having level 4-7 dwellings and Hill Fort in the first week. For example, you have triple flaming ballista and I have arch druid and dragon. Let's see if you can survive after firing the first round of shots.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 03, 2013 10:52 AM |
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Quote:
This. And it would have also cause anger and much butthurt if they had used the original universe, since that one got blowed up by a Gelu. There really is no pleasing some people...
Oh yeah right, like there is no way to win, because many Heroes fans had set their standards a little higher than the horrible Twilight fanfiction-level pig slop that was Heroes V's campaign.
Sorry all they had to do to please people's expectations on that front was write a good story that doesn't shame or butcher the franchise, preferably in the classic universe NWC had used for 20 years. with either no voice casting or better voice casting than what was spat out in the end.
especially after all they promised in that dev diary, I really don't see why you would say woe is me or say fans were pretending to be rape victims, as if it is like they were asking Ubisoft for pints of blood. i did admmittedly feel a bit like a rape victim after clawing my way through the Heroes V story but that's not here or there.
no, though, instead they put their best minds and creative forces to work, made color-coded dragon factions and we now get to put up with a Dungeon ranging from violet to purple with a touch of magenta.
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 03, 2013 09:59 PM |
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I personally found beauty in H5's balance. Three factors: 1) the heroes, 2) the troops, and 3) strategic timing (early game vs. later game) contribute to an adequate (albeit not perfect) balance of eight factions. For example, heroes like Vittorio may have an advantage in the early game but lost their edge to heroes like Anwen in the later game. Rangers may be weaker heroes in general, but their Sylvan troops have better quality than other factions.
The game has 64 heroes--we cannot even expect them to be all of the same quailty, right? It is the necessary variation that makes each hero unique and memorable. There will be strong ones and weak ones, depending on the map you play (what troops are available) and strategic timing of the decisive battle.
When I look at heroes, I tend to see them as a portfolio of each faction, not as individuals. The game is playable and fun because the portfolio is managable. For a typical 2-3 week map, I can classify the 8 heroes of each faction into major ones (easier mf, faster leveling, and better at player encounters) and minor ones (supporting role compared to the major ones). Notice that the minor ones in one faction can be major ones in another faction, and minor ones in a 2-3 week map could easily become major ones in 5-10 week maps.
Hero classification in a 2-3 week map
* Knights
Major: Vittorio, Dougal, Lazlo, Rutger
Minor: Klaus, Ellaine, Maeve, Irina
* Rangers
Major: Ossir, Wyngaal, Dirael, Gilraen
Minor: Vinrael, Ylthin, Talanar, Anwen
* Wizards
Major: Havez (possible ban or limit to lv 5), Nur, Nathir, Jhora, Narxes, Faiz
Minor: Razzak, Galib
* Runemages
Major: Ingvar, Karli, Erling, Inga
Minor: Svea, Brand, Ebba, Helmar
* Demon Lords
Major: Deleb, Grawl, Grok
Minor: Nebiros, Marbas, Jezebeth, Alastor, Nymus
* Necromancers
Major: Kaspar (possible ban or limit to lv 5), Vladimir, Naadir, Zoltan
Minor: Lucretia, Raven, Orson, Deirdre
* Warlocks
Major: Lethos, Sinitar, Yrwanna, Eruina, Vayshan
Minor: Kythra, Yrbeth, Sorgal
* Barbarians
Major: Haggash, Kragh, Telsek, Urghat, Garuna
Minor: Gorshak, Kilghan, Shah`Kuruhat
What you can easily notice is: except Demon Lords, at least 50% of each faction's hero porfolio are majors who can start a 2-3 week map without huge penalty. Therefore, if you want to randomize your starting hero, you have less than 25% chance to get two minor heroes and request a restart. The reality is, you often pick your favorite hero to start with--and there are at least a couple of them in each faction you can choose from, allowing enough variation and fun.
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted January 03, 2013 11:47 PM |
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You guys don't understand my (and apparently gnomesy's) point. I completely agree that H5's campaign was a piece of garbage, that, retrospectively, it sucks compared to the old world, that they would have been better off using the old one instead. But at the time, it was much better to start off new so Ubisoft could create their own world with their new ideas and plot, and take it however they want. The execution was terrible, the idea was good. That's all I'm trying to say.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 03, 2013 11:57 PM |
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@Unbalance
Whining/Discussing the balance of the game is pointless. There are things that I like about the balance and design (like initiative system, some of the units, innovative creeping) and stuff that I dislike (early vs late game towns, other units, etc), this wasn't the cause of the demise of the game.
All heroes games were unbalanced. It is not a multiplayer game. Some people play multiplayer for the heck of it but imo it is not the main reason for the addictive behaviour of Heroes.
@Old World vs New World.
The new world is a bunch of snowty clichés put together. The bazillion dragons, elves, dwarves, stupid town alignments, all the works. It is much less interesting and meaningful than the old world. The campaigns were bloody awful as well.
I agree with the above post. Changing the universe would have been a stylistic decision if the new world would live up to the quality of the old one.
All the cutscenes in the world with people screaming "Griffin Eternal" at every point can't compare to the old world where I was reading the text of all campaigns.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 04, 2013 08:24 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 08:25, 04 Jan 2013.
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question before Elvin answers...
@darkprince, after seeing your last post & thinking you also played agst other humans & not just a casual gamer like some others, I'm interested in how to have good balance between all 8 factions in a 2-3wk game.
Can you point to a map (or maps) that would achieve this nirvana of balance in 2-3wk map, preferably 8 FFA?
Also which buildings are pre-built in home town that allows one to build lvl 7 dwelling in wk 1?
What lvl will heroes be when meeting for first time?
Just interested in re-creating the H3 flavor of fast games that are not so imbalanced between factions...I hardly ever play 2-3wk games due to imbalance.
Yah, Havez is a bit too good for short game & probably why he only starts with only one skill/perk.
[fwiw, this thread's in wrong sub-forum & there are much bigger issues in the franchise than just nitpicking/flaming non-major flaws in H5 ]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 04, 2013 04:43 PM |
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@SKPRIMUS, try the following one--an edited version of Mystic's Vale. Its balance has been tested for a couple of years. Empty your H5 Maps folder and UserMODs folder before using it.
Mystic Vale v2.31
A couple of things were built in the map design to limit the power of war machines and casters.
1. Since war machines can only fire once per round, increasing the number of troops reduces its threat. Therefore, dwellings lv 1-3 are built in town and dwellings lv 1-7 could be found nearby. Any faction should be able to fend off a triple flaming ballista rush with two-week lv 1-7 troops.
2. Dwellings lv 4-7, Hill Fort, and a gold mine are guarded by a group of creatures (1 Black Dragon, 10 Succubus Mistress, 30 Stalkers, and 136 Imps). These creatures are meant to challenge the casters since the Imps drain 34 points of mana during the battle. 5 Earth Elementals in front of the guards will come to your aid to ease the battle.
All factions should be able to take the high-level dwellings on Day 3. The first battle between two players could be fought as early as on Day 6. Main heroes typically reach lv 16-18 before the game ends.
Recommended rules:
1. Havez and Kaspar limited to lv 5.
2. Restart if Shackles of the Last Man is seen on Day 1.
3. Difficulty level: hard.
The following behaviors are ALLOWED:
1. Using Wyngaal
2. Mentoring
3. Hit and run
4. Week 1 Armageddon/Curse of the Netherworld
And etc...
So far, the general understanding of this particular map is still very limited--it is very time consuming to try all pairs of factions between players of similar skill levels. I have played many factions and my hunch is that Necropolis, Stronghold, Inferno, Haven, Dungeon, and Academy belong to the first tier, while Sylvan and Fortress belong to the second tier. I could be wrong but that's the fun part of this game--if there is no clear-cut advantage, we have balance among the factions.
BTW, some best players around me found that Dungeon has a very difficult time facing Stronghold on this particular map.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 04, 2013 08:32 PM |
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What about the 3D??
This has been a major discussion when the game was first announced to be 3D and I was always iffy about it. I believe it has contributed to the failure of the game. Because of two reasons:
a) Poor optimization with the 3D engine made the game slow, memory hogging and overall a tough experience on low end machines.
A turn based game can be managed in 2D with minimal problems, especially given how Heroes games work.
The 3D, even though it made the game look shiny, it has only brought unneeded performance problems for the game.
b) Map Design.
It's hard to grasp this one, but playing all the Heroes games, I realize that the Heroes 5 maps are somehow less rich in real-estate. Because of the camera angles and the fact that all objects now need to be rendered from all sides, it feels such as though objects must be put further apart in order to keep the player with a sense of spacing.
Immagine this: if you put 3 creature dwellings in Heroes 3 side by side right next to each other, there's no actual problem with this. In Heroes 5, you've just built a wall which is ugly and hard to look behind.
Anyway, I feel that the 3D aspect has only overcomplicated as aspect of the game which never needed improvement in the first place.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2013 09:32 PM |
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Have to disagree here slightly, going 3D wasn't the big issue, it was scaling everything to the map hero, rather than it just being a placemarker for the army as NWC did that made it such a resource hog, if the trees has only come up to the horse's carpus/hock and the mountains had topped out at the horses shoulders everything would have been fine.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2013 09:39 PM |
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The problem with 3D is simply that it hijacked/Hijacks too many resources, and I don't mean engine resources but resources for making the game.
No one is playing a game likes HoMM because of it's beautiful graphics, so I always felt what would have been necessary was a more imaginativeingenious way to deal with graphics that would have resulted in satisfactory optics - but without the amount of resources that had/have to be put into it.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 04, 2013 09:45 PM |
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Quote:
The problem with 3D is simply that it hijacked/Hijacks too many resources, and I don't mean engine resources but resources for making the game.
No one is playing a game likes HoMM because of it's beautiful graphics, so I always felt what would have been necessary was a more imaginativeingenious way to deal with graphics that would have resulted in satisfactory optics - but without the amount of resources that had/have to be put into it.
I agree. Heroes is a game much more about strategical depth and storytelling than it's about shiny graphics and pretty images. Higher resolution Heroes 3 graphics would have largely sufficed and saved more development time for what actually matters.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 01:48 AM |
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Does it though? How many programmers can become 3D modellers in a short time (call it weeks)? Sure you can shift money around, but you still have to have the people in the first place. There's even less connection between graphics and storyline, so blaming the art direction for the poor story seems crazy to me.
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