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| Thread: What Really went Wrong with H5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV |
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 02:03 AM |
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Does it though? How many programmers can become 3D modellers in a short time (call it weeks)? Sure you can shift money around, but you still have to have the people in the first place. There's even less connection between graphics and storyline, so blaming the art direction for the poor story seems crazy to me.
who are you replying to?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 02:28 AM |
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Both of you really, JJ made the statement, but you agreed with it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 08:58 AM |
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I don't really understand the point, Matt. What are you trying to say? That you don't need a bunch of writers to come up with a good story?
But our comments were not for the story. Someone started about 3D (what really went wrong with H5), and I was agreeing. This is more of a general point. 3D costs manhours - lots of them -, and those manhours, for a game like HoMM, would have been better spent elsewhere, which becomes way more obvious when looking at HoMM VI.
3D is simply too much of a resource burner. For example, when yondidering options for an addon for H6 Dwarves were immediately out due to the fact that the Dwarvebn heroes would have needed completely new models due to them being short and broad, while Elves can generally make use of the human models with a few corrections. That's by the way also the reason behind all main heroes being HUMANS. Modelling.
So this influences even the story, although we are at HoMM 5, not 6, but if asked, going 3D has been a rather costly error there, because when push comes to shove, it doesn't help when a strategy game looks good but plays sucky.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 05, 2013 10:17 AM |
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@darkprince, Thanks very much for that modified Mystic's Vale map & your explanatory words. At 1st look, it looks an interesting design for 2-3wk game with certain things pre-built/pre-owned/weak creeps plus need to use secondary heroes for battling
I would imagine player chooses starting hero & whichever second/third hero that appears in tavern at start would be quite important (eg. vittorio start & dougal in tavern) as well as witch-hut skill. Not sure why shackles seen on day 1 is bad if hit'n'run is allowed. Signposts appear to have nothing?
Sadly in all my H5 forum searchings, I've never read/heard of any discussions of 2-3wk balanced maps on any H5 forum. If there are discussions of these sort of maps somewhere on internet, I'd be glad to know.
Glad this thread has your's, pera's & Elvin's interesting strategy posts
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 10:20 AM |
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Edited by okrane at 10:24, 05 Jan 2013.
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Yes, my answer would be along the lines of what JJ said. 3D takes a lot of extra time to develop (independent of the game story, gameplay and all that). This means extra money spent on (good) programmers, extra time spent on optimizing the game (which Nival still did not do enough - given that the game is still slow) and less time spent on the important matters:
- story
- gameplay
- skills, units, heroes
- map editor
Also, when all is said and done, games have deadlines, developpers must answer to publishers and deliver something in a reasonable timeframe. 3D simply meant that their task was much more difficult because of the extra complexity this brings.
Nobody is blaming the story directly on the poor art direction. They are independent things in theory. It's just that sometimes when the money is thin and you have tight deadlines the overall quality of the product drops as a consequence.
Also, as a 3D game, I find mapmaking to be more difficult to the aspiring map maker. As I said in an earlier post if a map-creator is being put-off by the overly difficult to use map-editor the game loses as a whole. A good map-editor (for a HoMM game) makes it such as people who know how to play HoMM can make maps. Make the game too complex and suddenly you need to have a computer science degree in order to interact with their editor which is a completely bad decision because it affects the longevity of the game.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 11:17 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:29, 05 Jan 2013.
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I don't really understand the point, Matt. What are you trying to say? That you don't need a bunch of writers to come up with a good story?
No, I'm saying that writers don't generally make good graphic artists.
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3D costs manhours - lots of them -, and those manhours, for a game like HoMM, would have been better spent elsewhere, which becomes way more obvious when looking at HoMM VI.
Except that it only costs man-hours for the graphics people, the story-writers are totally unaffected, and the programmers only mildly so, unless they're trying to do both jobs. Also, Nival has 300 employees, far more than Blackhole, and yet Blackhole was able to produce VI.
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3D is simply too much of a resource burner. For example, when yondidering options for an addon for H6 Dwarves were immediately out due to the fact that the Dwarvebn heroes would have needed completely new models due to them being short and broad, while Elves can generally make use of the human models with a few corrections. That's by the way also the reason behind all main heroes being HUMANS. Modelling.
This is a thread about H5.
Quote:
So this influences even the story, although we are at HoMM 5, not 6, but if asked, going 3D has been a rather costly error there, because when push comes to shove, it doesn't help when a strategy game looks good but plays sucky.
And it doesn't help in the slightest to have a publisher like Ubisoft, if that article that supposed "Blackhole Employee" posted a while back is true. Oh and it was going to have to convert sooner or later, so why not then?
Quote:
Yes, my answer would be along the lines of what JJ said. 3D takes a lot of extra time to develop (independent of the game story, gameplay and all that). This means extra money spent on (good) programmers, extra time spent on optimizing the game (which Nival still did not do enough - given that the game is still slow) and less time spent on the important matters:
Except that unless the programmers were also artists, or unless they weren't paying all of their employees, then the graphics shouldn't have mattered a jot to the gameplay. And how long do you think it takes to come up with a decent story anyway?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 12:41 PM |
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Matt, I think you are missing the point. The budget is set by the producer. Nival hasn't have a permanent crew, but hired depending on the projects. So if the producer - Ubisoft - is allocating a budget X, then the question is for what it is spent. What percentage will be spent on graphics (and graphic artists) and what percentage will be spent on, say, making an editor, simTurns, game balance and testing, random map generator, a CONFIGURABLE Duel mode, and so on and so forth.
Correspondingly, if they decide pro 3D, they HIRE the necessary additional graphic artists; had they decided against full 3D, they could have hired less praphical artists and more OTHERS, and the same is true for the Ubisoft side of the equation.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 06:39 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 19:59, 05 Jan 2013.
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I'm sorry, a studio of 300 or so has to subcontract work out? That I don't believe.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2013 08:12 PM |
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You shouldn't mix up the GAME DEVELOPMENT outfit with the PUBLISHING COMPANY. Today Nival may have 300 employees, but they are not working in game development. Never have.
Even if they had. Which they hadn't. But if they had - the error would STILL be the same: if you have a company that builds houses, and you have too many interior designers - if the houses miss stability, it's a bit weird to counter the claim "they should have puit more money into stability", with the claim, "their interior designers couldn't have done it".
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 02:05 AM |
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@SKPRIMUS
I hope you and many others will enjoy the map.
To your questions:
Both players share the vision of two relics in the center of the map. Shackles are like the harbinger of death to the opponent if they are located closer to your side. The opponent's fate is almost sealed, which reduces uncertainty and spoils fun. Of course, this rule is only optional, just like capping Havez and Kaspar.
The starting hero and second/third heroes are important just like many other random factors (e.g., starting artifact, refugee, 2nd and 3rd town factions, etc.). I'd recommend starting with the major heroes that I listed earlier--starting with minor heroes of each faction could be quite a challenge when fighting the Hill Fort guards.
Do you speak Russian or Chinese? If you do, your H5 universe could grow 2-3 folds.
If there are enough interests about the map I posted earlier, I can copy some threads to the H5 section of this forum and do some translation.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 07:05 AM |
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You shouldn't mix up the GAME DEVELOPMENT outfit with the PUBLISHING COMPANY. Today Nival may have 300 employees, but they are not working in game development. Never have.
So what about Rage of Mages, Etherlords, Blitzkrieg, Silent Storm and the rest? It wasn't until after H5 that Nival really got into publishing (sure they published Evil Island back in 2000, but it didn't exactly make it big).
Quote:
Even if they had. Which they hadn't. But if they had - the error would STILL be the same: if you have a company that builds houses, and you have too many interior designers - if the houses miss stability, it's a bit weird to counter the claim "they should have puit more money into stability", with the claim, "their interior designers couldn't have done it".
Maybe, but how many interior designers would have degrees in architecture or structural engineering?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 10:42 AM |
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Matt, that's not how business works, gaming or other. Do you really think, a company like Ubisoft and Nival would meet, then Ubi would tell Nival, we want to keep it 2D and put most of the resources into real gaming elements and make a gamers's game, and then Nival would tell them, that's not possible because our staff doesn't allow that, we must go for great graphics due to the structure of our personnel, and then Ubisoft says, too bad, there goes our game vision?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 12:25 PM |
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Quote:
Do you really think, a company like Ubisoft and Nival would meet, then Ubi would tell Nival, we want to keep it 2D and put most of the resources into real gaming elements and make a gamers's game, and then Nival would tell them, that's not possible because our staff doesn't allow that, we must go for great graphics due to the structure of our personnel, and then Ubisoft says, too bad, there goes our game vision?
Ubisoft owns the rights, and they obviously though Nival could do it. If Ubisoft had wanted 2D they'd have specified, and if Nival wouldn't co-operate, well there's plenty more fish in the sea.
Also, we don't know how much of the bugginess was Ubisoft changing its mind over gameplay and Nival having to go back and redo stuff, thus not being able to use that time to iron out the bugs.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 01:47 PM |
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However, and that's what this is about, going 3D and consequently having to invest a lot of resources into GRAPHICS, MODELLING and unsatisfactory cutscenes, may considered as "where H5 erred". The question isn't WHO erred, Nival or Ubisoft or both (which would be the correct answer anyway, since it makes no sense to heap all the blame onto one party when two are involved).
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 02:26 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 14:27, 06 Jan 2013.
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we all know Ubisoft doesnt make "gamers' games".
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 07, 2013 07:25 AM |
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Quote:
...Do you speak Russian or Chinese? If you do, your H5 universe could grow 2-3 folds.
If there are enough interests about the map I posted earlier, I can copy some threads to the H5 section of this forum and do some translation.
@darkprince, thanks for that, I knew I missed something in google search for different languages; & google translate will be adequate. I think you're right right about 2-3 folds.
And unless anyone else writes something, I highly doubt anyone here (except me) would be interested in the details, so no need for you to waste your time  [I'll just hope to find it myself eventually & other 2-4wk "balanced" maps].
It does bring up one very interesting point - maybe one has to have easy creeps/xp/gold at start in multiple directions for short balanced maps to build up levels/creatures quickly & multiple heroes fighting too. It's a change from many maps where a LOT (or too much) of the game is on creeping (fighting neutral creatures), instead of fighting/strategizing directly against the other players.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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darkprince
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 09:31 AM |
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Quote:
It does bring up one very interesting point - maybe one has to have easy creeps/xp/gold at start in multiple directions for short balanced maps to build up levels/creatures quickly & multiple heroes fighting too. It's a change from many maps where a LOT (or too much) of the game is on creeping (fighting neutral creatures), instead of fighting/strategizing directly against the other players.
You are absolutely right. 2-3 week map encounters involve a lot of "strategy" (Heroes games are supposed to be about strategy, right?) and multi-hero creeping/fighting.
I will start one thread for you just to see how much interest there would be (probably in a couple of days). On the forums that I frequent, we often document a match using a series of screen shots from one player's perspective.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 01:48 PM |
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it's a travesty that the garrison is gone as a building, as there is now way to encourage risky play, in H3 you could create map with two castles behind powerful garrisons that you couldn't take out from and then have a go at the rare mines all the time on no mans land, so even if you lost a battle war could still be won.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 08, 2013 11:29 AM |
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If I understand you correctly, in H5 you can make a map without the 7 day limit, not need a town and have owned garrisons.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted March 10, 2013 10:18 PM |
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Yep. Called: The ability to make your own Campaigns.
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If I understand you correctly, in H5 you can make a map without the 7 day limit, not need a town and have owned garrisons.
By adding this feature to the Map-Editor, you now have the true ability of making your very own User-Campaigns. Since Fall of 2007, I believe. When MMH5: Tribes of the East version 3.0 was newly released + patch to version 3.1 a couple of months after.
Same year that Windows Vista all editions was officially released to retailers(v.6.0.xxxx). That is also the main reason that it is strongly recommended to use and play MMH5: T.o.t.E. ever since(the totally debugged one of all 3 versions). 5 and half years ago, already. Ain't that something.
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