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| Thread: A prespective from the Ubisoft generation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 10, 2011 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
There is another problem which has never been mentioned: the human cheats even more than AI, by reloading as soon as he does not like the outcome. Then blame the AI for poor challenge. Try once to play a map without any reload, you will see how it goes.
That's a great point Salamandre. And <imo> that brings a lot more to the discussion about good A.I.s
Since in Campaigns a player often has to resort to "saves" to win, I wonder how contaminated "normal play" becomes? but more even important; how do folks look at "difficulty"...period? <iow> Where is the "magic-terrain" that lies between too-hard and too-easy? Seems to me that game-makers (and map-makers too) lose with some people no matter what they choose.
Btw, I am starting to see this same monster rising (in many threads) in the discussion about E.E. 5.5. <imo> At some point the creator just has to cut loose from the debate, and go-for-it.
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"Do your own research"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2011 08:42 PM |
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In fact it's quite an old point, and one that I've used myself often enough.
It's also unrealistic.
A better suggestion is to
USE ONE SAVE ONLY.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2011 08:43 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2011 09:52 PM |
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Not at all.
You have to use a save when you quit, so ONE save is, what you naturally have to use as soon as you have to quit the game before you finish.
That's the save I mean.
It's true that I often use the autosave for simplicity, but there is a lot you simply have to accept when you play that way.
Usually I reload only in situations when I want to try something out and compare it with a different course of play.
More often than not I admit defeat when I really HAVE to reload just to stay in game, and restart or play another map. ONE crucial reload is generally accepted, but after that I play "on probation". 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2011 09:58 PM |
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Geez I was kidding and you take it seriously and even develop.
I am the last one to throw the stone, I use the reload a lot. But I play difficult maps, unlike you. 
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2011 10:13 PM |
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I don't play H3 anymore - didn't play it for quize some time now, actually.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 10, 2011 10:19 PM |
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One save, sheesh. So a lot of people like keeping several saves, what's wrong with that? If said people complain about the campaign being too easy then they suck and that's that
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 10, 2011 11:20 PM |
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The problem as I see it is that the player usually develops a long term objective, like capturing a specific castle (because it supervises a bottle neck on the map), to clear a specific region of the map because it contains a lot of treasure, or to flag all mines / dwellings in a certain region to quickly boost town development and the like. I doubt the AI is able to make sure grand considerations, actually, but perhaps I am wrong.
Also, the AI doesn't make calculation errors in what it can achieve within a turn with regards to movement. The player *may* turn up short by one or two squares to prevent a major disaster (happened to me more than I'd like to admit, really), because of an error in judgment - one that the AI isn't going to make.
Players sometimes completely drain their available resources, to pull together a massive defense (or strike force) and go all out. The AI seems to always keep at least some resources at hand, even if it means losing the coming battle.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 11, 2011 06:44 PM |
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@JJ
I agree about the save-strategy being old but I went further and ended looking more closely at this;
Quote:
how do folks look at "difficulty"...period? <iow> Where is the "magic-terrain" that lies between too-hard and too-easy? Seems to me that game-makers (and map-makers too) lose with some people no matter what they choose.
I know this is old-stuff too but it remains very important and considering the arguments that are happening about most any aspect of the HoMM games...any release; imo, this huge hurdle hangs over whatever is done.
I am beginning to think that with celebrating 25 years of "games and fans' that may add more headaches for the Devs. in trying to do anything. <iow> With each new release, a larger snakes-nest appears. Your forge comments come to mind right about now.
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"Do your own research"
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted August 11, 2011 07:12 PM |
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Maurice drawn some points that are important and always limit the AI. AI in games does not have sense of purpose, it uses simple strategies to achieve current goals, like choosing one of avaliable options or finding shortest paths.
The issue is that it's not likely teach AI something more before we know the game well, also it consumes a significant amount of time and is usually just not worth it, as game needs to be released quickly and give profits. Game AI is different from academic AI and uses simple lookup tables and coefficients to take decision, does not think in human terms.
All who criticise the AI - try to describe better algorithm which is always working and can be expressed in computer terms. You will undoubtely fail
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted August 11, 2011 07:46 PM |
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My beef with forge is not just that Heroes (as opoosed to M&M) has always been a pure fantasy (ancient/medieval) without sci-fi.
Forge wanted to put corresponding creatures at the same level. What does it mean ?
- Goblins with laser pistols at level 1
- zombies with chainsaws at level 2
(...)
- Ogres with rocket launchers at level 4
- Minotaurs with jetpacks at level 5
Am I supposed to believe goblins with laser pistols are as good as goblins without them ? A highly advanced weapon as good as a club ? Rocket launcher as good as a big club ? Jetpack minotaurs roughly as good as minotaurs without them ? Why are they using laser pistols at all if they're so crap ?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 11, 2011 07:59 PM |
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I agree that long term AI strategy is ... tricky, to say the least. But there are some simple algorithms they can at least do in combat.
For instance, instead of making the calculation (I don't know the script language, so just take this as an example):
- If(enemy army is larger than my army), then(flee)
They could make:
- If(enemy army is larger than my army),
- If(enemy can kill all my stacks before my next stack gets to act), then(flee), otherwise(continue combat)
Without knowing the exact way of programming, that was pretty much how H3 AI worked: If it expected to get another turn before end of combat, it would wait and fight to give you as many losses as possible. H5 (vanilla) and H6 AI just flees on first turn which is lame.
Of course you could outsmart H3 AI by killing his first upcomming stack and hence he didn't get to act when he expected to, that was part of what actually made the combats fun. Failing to attend to just small details like this clearly makes for a very poor gaming experience and shows very little understanding of how this game works.
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What will happen now?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 12, 2011 10:00 AM |
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Quote:
My beef with forge is not just that Heroes (as opoosed to M&M) has always been a pure fantasy (ancient/medieval) without sci-fi
In my opinion, Forge also didn't do justice to the alignment of the various creatures thrown together. They took existing creatures from different factions, added some high-tech gear and called it a new faction. Naga's, Goblins and Zombies all in the same faction? Nah, that doesn't work for me.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted August 12, 2011 10:35 AM |
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Good point, Maurice. If that kind of coherency is typical for Might&Magic the RPG, then I'm happy they've kept it out of the strategy games.
I'm not particularly prejudiced against sci-fi in fantasy (a very common occurrence), but it's immersion-breaking unless done carefully. So why doesn't Forge get undead morale penalty if it has zombies ? Does Holy Word work on them ? Common sense still applies.
As a side note, the tanks probably ran on mercury ;-).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2011 11:01 AM |
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It looks like there is a problem with understanding the concept behind the Forge. It's an evil town, and the evilness consists of abducting certain creatures and use some technomancy on them to fuse them with weapons from a different technology. They would become cyber-creatures comparable with undead. Very evil.
I think, the fact was known, that population would have been sparse, comparable probably with H5 Dungeon.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 12, 2011 11:24 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 11:25, 12 Aug 2011.
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The faction's alignment doesn't change the fact that unit design was basically a rehash.
At least the Tank looked decent enough.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 12, 2011 12:52 PM |
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If they had made a sort of mix between Necropolis and Tower, that might have worked. Partially undead, partially mechanical, driven by crazy Wizards and Necromancers (you could consider the Heroes of this town like crazed scientists) in an attempt to form an artificial army composed of mechanical units and mechanically enhanced Undead. Different Golem types, perhaps partially mixed in with Undead body parts. Maybe a different implementation of Gremlins to be the lowly servants.
The Wizards would have been expelled from Tower for messing around with necrotic energies and the Necromancers would have been expelled from their class as well, because they aren't "pure" anymore because of the mechanical components integrated in their monstrosities. Being crazed, they only care for themselves and have little in the way of "good" or "evil", thus being just about as neutral as Conflux.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 15, 2011 04:16 PM |
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You are missing the point. The Forges have always been there and they are in the centre of Might & Magic VII. It's not about adding yet another fantasy feature to the relatively generic fantasy landscape but to introduce the sci-fi roots of the lore on a large scale. Plus the relationships between the Wizards and the Necromancers are more or less well-explained and adding such nuance would have been out of place.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 16, 2011 02:44 AM |
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Quote:
The Forges have always been there and they are in the centre of Might & Magic VII. It's not about adding yet another fantasy feature to the relatively generic fantasy landscape but to introduce the sci-fi roots of the lore on a large scale.
More than a few people don't like playing RTSs, even M&M, and so aren't going to be aware of the origins. Just because M&M and HoM&M are in the same universe, doesn't mean they have the same audience.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 16, 2011 07:42 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The Forges have always been there and they are in the centre of Might & Magic VII. It's not about adding yet another fantasy feature to the relatively generic fantasy landscape but to introduce the sci-fi roots of the lore on a large scale.
More than a few people don't like playing RTSs, even M&M, and so aren't going to be aware of the origins. Just because M&M and HoM&M are in the same universe, doesn't mean they have the same audience.
This. I never played MM nor did I care about what went on there.
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What will happen now?
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