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| Thread: Rise of xenophobia in Europe |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Shyranis
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posted August 11, 2011 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 21:09, 11 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
I know of people who have lived here over a decade and still don't speak the language. They shop at their own grocery stores, wear their traditional clothes, and speak in their native tongues.
I know people like that, my parents. They have something like 5 or 6 Native Tongues and they only taught me one fairly well and I know bits and pieces of a couple others.
In their case though, they were old so they didn't really have the capacity to get a 7th or 8th language. They did everything to make sure their kids adapted to the culture of the country while retaining useful things from their own. Well, my Dad did learn English really well and work very hard but he could do neither after his stroke...
Of course, I can't help but see the innocent side when I see somebody who looks and behaves like an entirely different culture.
My parents when I was young took us (brothers, sister and I) out for a picnic, and we made a fire to cook our rice on the back lawn of the Parliament buildings! Of course we were told to stop. But imagine what the high security, shoot first attitude of these days would do if somebody did that on the White House back lawn. My family was fresh off the boat so to speak and didn't realize we couldn't just do those things on any plain old public property (certain parks do let you of course, but we didn't know). An innocent and silly mistake.
To be honest it took me a while to clue in that the movie Borat wasn't real because I've been there as an immigrant estranged from society (mostly because I was really young and shy and my parents had to do the talking). Ah the times.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 11, 2011 09:21 PM |
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The first thing is, that we have to separate between the former colonial powers and the rest.
We have the situation that in countries like Britain, France, Netherlands, Denmark and so on there's legal immigration from the old colonies (or Greenland for Denmark).
Then there are native populations in Canada, the US and Australia.
That's simply the sins of the fathers that come back to haunt, and these countries simply have to find a way to "coexist".
Then there is general immigration - people from poor countries are simply trying to leave the hellholes of this planet and migrate to richer countries. Also, people who are sold; children and prostitutes, who are not coming voluntarily.
The most effective policy there is against all this is a conscious and concerted effort to help the poor countries in this world to get rid of their corrupt leadership (which are working perfectly fine with 1st world corporations) and get their countries economically going. Egypt, for example, is no hellhole - but at look at the corruption.
Thank you.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2011 09:31 PM |
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There's good immigration and there's bad immigration. Some immigrants want to come to another country, work, make a living, and raise their children in a safer, healthier, and more prosperous environment, and are willing to work at lower wages than natives to do so. Immigration restrictions hurt these kinds of immigrants as well as the country to which they're trying to come - we need more of these people, not fewer. Other immigrants want to have 10 kids while on welfare, benefit from affirmative action, sometimes establish their own legal system and/or protect their traditional culture, and riot when someone tries to do something about them. The first kind of immigrant wants to live in their new country. The second kind wants to live in their old country but with free money.
The solution is simple: reduce immigration restrictions and welfare. Then the country will have more good immigrants and fewer bad ones. Then there wouldn't be any need to protect a country's "culture" from "invaders" because the immigrants wouldn't be doing any harm. And requiring them to learn the language would be unnecessary, as they'd either learn it by their own initiative or get by without it if they don't need it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 11, 2011 10:11 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 22:11, 11 Aug 2011.
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To be honest, just evaluate the family's condition when they emigrate.
If a family is honestly unable to do anything (like mine, crippled father and nobody to take care of the kids) they should be allowed help, but people who are honestly fine and are not putting any effort forth should be removed from the system and if they become a problem, sent to their point of origin. If a born and raised citizen of the country acts like a mooch, they should also be cut off and maybe be suggested to move elsewhere that would tolerate them =p
IMHO, always look for that who can not work and differentiate them from those who do not despite all ability. Yes, you can give people chances as there will be some prejudice against immigrants, but everybody that is on the government's dime should be regularly assessed. My family honestly needed assistance, but I see other people who honestly sicken me.
To be honest, I see a lot (I know there are honest hardworking ones, but not the ones I see) of lazy Somalian Refugees with tons of kids. Those kids are usually really stupid, they don't seem to be very bright and lack a lot of respect for everybody and I know it's all in how they were raised. A lot of them live near my cousins in the slummy type area where they live. One of the kids called my hubby a "f*g" because he uses more than basic vocabulary. Reminded me of the movie Idiocracy "reading's for f*gs". I want to grab those kids by the shoulders, shake them, point to the s***hole they live in and their lazy parents and say "Do you really want to live like this? Do you really want to be a gross slob your whole life and live in a cockroach farm? Do you really think life is good when you're at your most worthless?"
We need to weed out the people who abuse the system and support people genuinely in need like the system intended. I don't care if it takes hiring a bunch of accountants to audit the **** out of people, doing so will create jobs that stimulate the economy anyway while it also cuts away waste. Heck, even if we had a 1 to 1 savings to accountant pay at least the money would be doing something productive.
Pardon my language.
Abuse threatens the very programs that allowed me to be alive at all today.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2011 10:11 PM |
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and why do "good immigrants" get kicked out of the country? 
I sometimes read about some random perfectly integrated immigrants with a job, who pay taxes, have friends in the native population, etc... and one day, for no reason, they are asked to go back to the country from where they come??
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 11, 2011 10:13 PM |
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Quote:
and why do "good immigrants" get kicked out of the country?
I sometimes read about some random perfectly integrated immigrants with a job, who pay taxes, have friends in the native population, etc... and one day, for no reason, they are asked to go back to the country from where they come??
That shouldn't happen. That could happen for two reasons only:
Honest mistake (probably >90% of the reasons)
Malicious intent by people who have authority (<10%)
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mvassilev
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posted August 11, 2011 10:19 PM |
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Quote:
and why do "good immigrants" get kicked out of the country?
I sometimes read about some random perfectly integrated immigrants with a job, who pay taxes, have friends in the native population, etc... and one day, for no reason, they are asked to go back to the country from where they come??
Because they came to the country illegally, or overstayed their visa, or law enforcement made a mistake. It's unpleasant, but them staying would have broken the law. If you disagree with the law, work to change it.
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xerox
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posted August 11, 2011 10:21 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:24, 11 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
I sometimes read about some random perfectly integrated immigrants with a job, who pay taxes, have friends in the native population, etc... and one day, for no reason, they are asked to go back to the country from where they come??
I think it is bad to focus on individual cases. I do not think that happens a lot, and if it does then it is wrong. I trust that those in charge of migration do their best to make just decisions.
Quote:
Because they came to the country illegally
Here illegal immigrants often get to stay and recently, the parliament voted that they should get completly free healthcare and dental care etc coupled with tax money in their pockets.
There is no "native" here that gets completly free dental care etc.
The media here wants to make people feel bad for illegal immigrant "children" who are usually over 16-17 years old.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2011 10:25 PM |
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The requirements on immigrants do not need to be extremly hard.
1. Learn the language.
2. Learn some basic history.
3. Learn about the culture.
4. Learn about how the society works.
5. Promise to want to find a job and teach your children all the above points.
Just fixed it a bit.
Basic history is nothing more than trivia, and hence it is not really doing anything.
Unless the point was to teach the immigrants some of the basic history as a supplement while learning the language.
Point 5 is kinda moot, at the least the latter half. If you manage to land a job, and move into a neighborhood where you are a minority, the problem will solve itself while the children grow up.
I would want a 6th item on the list:
6. Put down a law against the creation of slum/ghetto areas.
No immigrants should ever move to a poor areas, and no area should ever suffer having a majority of immigrants.
Considering the sheer amount of "gangstas" that the slums have raised, they are the worst problem.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 11, 2011 10:31 PM |
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Which would involve telling them where they're allowed to live, or I guess using some form of bribery.
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xerox
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posted August 11, 2011 10:42 PM |
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The history thing would be more like a summary, so it would be no way near be as important as I think it is in the US.
And I insist on keeping point 5. I have lived in an immigrant area, and there was very little swedish spoken. Sure, most of them COULD speak swedish - but nothing to advanced. Later in school, their Swedish and Social studies grades are really bad compared to swedish kids.
I grew up with the failed multiculture project and everybody I know thinks that immigrants are generally more aggressive and annoying than us. You really noticed that in school too.
In the ninth grade, we had an immigrant in my class who thought that the King was the one who had all the power in Sweden... -.-
But with integrated parents that know how the society works, speaks good swedish and teaches it to their children - that wouldn't be a problem.
And yes, there needs to be a law to prevent the immigrant majority areas from existing. Unfortunaly, here that is to late. The suburbs are already filled with immigrants. But with a law, you could prevent that from happening in the future.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 11, 2011 10:51 PM |
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Quote:
Which would involve telling them where they're allowed to live, or I guess using some form of bribery.
Ever heard of "regulations"?
There is many many ways of solving it.
One of the easiest would be to make sure there are not "poor default neighborhood" in the first place, or have a extreme spread on the communal appartments.
Or subsideize rent for immigrants, if they get a job, and do some skewering to create a spread.
Or do you want ghettos filled with undereducation poor children?
Xerox: Amen, søta broder.
I wonder how many lives the ghettos has ruined so far?
I have heard some nasty Danish stories about them too.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 11, 2011 10:55 PM |
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Are you guys actually advocating laws or regulations to specify where certain kinds of people are allowed to live? 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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del_diablo
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posted August 11, 2011 10:56 PM |
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We are advocating "do not bloody create ghettos".
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 11, 2011 11:00 PM |
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Sure, the government shouldn't create ghettos, but if the people create them voluntarily...
I mean, xerox seems to be saying the government should limit whether people of a certain ethnic persuasion can live together in groups above a certain size. That's about as obvious an abuse of constitutional authority (here in the US, anyway) as there ever was one.
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Doomforge
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posted August 11, 2011 11:03 PM |
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Quote:
In the ninth grade, we had an immigrant in my class who thought that the King was the one who had all the power in Sweden... -.-
And what does his immigrant status have to do with that? If he was a Swedish ignorant kid, drunkard or bully, it'd be all ok?
I still don't understand why some people just have to underline that the bully, gangster, drunkard or prostitute was foreign. IRL, on forum, in press, on TV... everwhere. As if that changed anything...
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del_diablo
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posted August 11, 2011 11:11 PM |
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1. That depends on how you do regulate it
2. Figure out WHY they moved together in ghettos in the first place, or why poor neighborhood are created. Create regulations to componsate, making it extremely unlikely for it to happen again.
We already know why ghettos are created:
It is extremely cheap to move over there, and when you do not posses money, you move to where it is cheap to move.
The second condition are that there must be enough poor people, or immigrants moving together into the neighborhood.
You already see it everywhere that the state builds neighborhoods, which is sold for a low price. The middleclass do not even want to touch it, becasue it will degenerate into crime. The rich is rich, so they do not move there either.
The poor on the other hand moves over the location as a last resort.
But lets talk about "newly established communal appartments", which means that you perhaps get a 20/80 ratio of middleclass to lower classes. The 20% of the middleclass ether move out because it is snow, or stay, their children get involved in gang activities, and then suddenly out of nowhere the family is "poor" after 2-3 generations.
And for the sake of argument:
1. We are banning freedom of sale in a lot of places, think poison, nukes, harmful weapons, lethal chemicalies, etc.
2. We are regulation the marked already, we are taxing, creating landlord laws, minimum standards, more regulations, and bad regulations.
So can you please elaborate why it is such a bloody outcry if we attempt to remove the problem before it exists? It can be something as simple as making sure there is not more than 5% of foreign cultural immigrant in each part of the city, which can be done via indirect regulations.
We can make sure that there never is a majority of poor people in neighborhood, via regulations.
So why the outcry? Why the objections? Why allow the problem to exist in the first place?
Now.... breaking up a ghetto on the other hand:
That is something that is worthy of an actual outcry, it would involve forcing people to move, the entire neighborhood, and then most likely rebuilding the entire place to get over the general decay that has been caused.
It would invole a entire part of cities having to find new jobs, breaking up created social circles.
On the other hand it would also more or less remove the entire "bloody non-assimilated immigrants" issue in 1-2 generations.
What do you think of that? I assume there is a slight chance you are reffering to breaking up ghettos, and not minor regulations.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2011 11:23 PM |
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I still don't understand why some people just have to underline that the bully, gangster, drunkard or prostitute was foreign. IRL, on forum, in press, on TV... everwhere. As if that changed anything...
and when there is a catastrophe on the other side of the planet, we hear more about the 3 french dudes who died there than about the millions of native. as if I cared more about 3 dudes I've never met just because they are french like me...
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted August 11, 2011 11:31 PM |
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and when there is a catastrophe on the other side of the planet, we hear more about the 3 french dudes who died there than about the millions of native. as if I cared more about 3 dudes I've never met just because they are french like me...
Lol i pointed the same thing out with the Oslo bombing,
Quote:
A senior U.S. diplomat in Oslo said they believe all U.S. personnel in the country are safe and accounted for.
This went with the first news of the Oslo bombing, I mean wtf...
I guess people expect you to care more about your own countrymen then anyone else.
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Adrius
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posted August 11, 2011 11:32 PM |
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Isn't it kinda natural that the people reading the news want to know if their friends and family are safe though?
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