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| Thread: Healing spells are op? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 04, 2011 05:48 PM |
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Quote:
well, on the other hand you can have healing spells that do not resurrect, but then they become useless 
alternatively you could have resurrection as lvl15 spell but then there is good chance your army is big enough that they become useless again.
this is really hard o balance, and i think i don't mind it right now as it enables decent creeping for every faction which is good imho.
Not really. Heal was a great spell in Heroes 3, not because it healed units, but because it removed negative spell effects. For creatures with high health, a normal Heal spell also is fine.
Heroes 5 had Resurrection as a level 5 spell, and still it was considered a good spell. H5 even had a further balancing measure, namely that it decreased overall health of stack with each casting.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 05:59 PM |
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but heal that dispels is just dispel that heals for me 
benefits of dispel are far better than that of heal, even on champions
and about 'goodness' of heal in h5, you could just spam it with no end so it had to be balanced, beside it was much more powerful in comparison to creatures hp, just like destruction spells were more powerful so it had to be balanced somehow. whereas now if you would got heal on lvl15 having say stack of 80-100 cores it would ress 10 of them not great imho...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2011 06:03 PM |
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Stronghold manages due to the Goblins and its racial but still falls behind the "healing factions" in terms of efficiency - shooters remain a problem and non-walkers render the Goblin's ability useless. So yeah, again you have to resort to some sort of healing spell to keep up.
Inferno is in a worse position. Hell Hounds/Cerberi die incredibly fast and are almost always the main target of all neutrals, the Succubi need to be upgraded to be really efficient (and for those who haven't noticed - Enthral does not work on stacks stronger than the stack of Lilim which use the ability so I don't know why do you praise it so much - it's not overly-useful and is balanced as it is) and the Maniacs... well, upgraded or not, they are mostly a meat shield during the early game. From the Elites the Tormentor is good for early pick but the other two - not so much. Going for early Pit Fiends is neither always possible, nor always viable option. All in all, they are the most obstructed faction during the first weeks.
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So level 15 is relatively quick in a map like broken alliance on normal difficulty in 2 or 3 weeks max
On Fastest - perhaps.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted November 04, 2011 06:58 PM |
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I have a feeling that - again - Inferno was designed as a faction to be beaten in a campaign, not to be played as. When fighting against them, there are silver bullets or at least easy to follow tricks.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted November 04, 2011 07:27 PM |
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I have a feeling that - again - Inferno was designed as a faction to be beaten in a campaign, not to be played as. When fighting against them, there are silver bullets or at least easy to follow tricks.
They are evil,they must be weak so the good guys can overpower them.Its the same in every cartoon...game.
If sylvan race comes out,they will be probably the strongest.Flower-power at its finest.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 04, 2011 07:30 PM |
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but heal that dispels is just dispel that heals for me
benefits of dispel are far better than that of heal, even on champions
Heal only removed negative effects but had positive effects remain. Dispell removes all effects. Heal only affects your own units, Dispell affects all units (with mass effect). So there's deffinitely a huge difference.
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and about 'goodness' of heal in h5, you could just spam it with no end so it had to be balanced, beside it was much more powerful in comparison to creatures hp, just like destruction spells were more powerful so it had to be balanced somehow. whereas now if you would got heal on lvl15 having say stack of 80-100 cores it would ress 10 of them not great imho...
Which shows what ... that the old system was bad, or that the new system is bad? Personally, I didn't find any problem with the old system.
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What will happen now?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted November 04, 2011 07:43 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 19:46, 04 Nov 2011.
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I beat the entire necro campaign never loosing more than 20% of my army in a battle, and those above 10% were high or deadlies. I won atleast 10 deadlies with few losses, and beat the entire second mission without loosing a single unit until the final battle. The haven campaign, however, I loose like 10% of my army in threat level low battles and avoid anything higher than that except for capturing towns. Necro healing is absolutely broken. I haven't tried the heal spell yet, but I think regen is balanced. In the campaigns regen helps early creeping a ton, because your hero starts high level, but in scenarios your spell power and max mana restricts it fairly.
EDIT: What if they made it so some or all of the resurrected creatures didn't stay after combat?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 04, 2011 07:55 PM |
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Well personally, I think the solution is very easy: Have a basic, advanced and expert level of the spell. With advanced level, some creatures remain after battle, with expert level, all remain after battle. But like we discussed elsewhere, that would require a complete overhaul of the skill system.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 08:02 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 20:07, 04 Nov 2011.
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Quote:
well, on the other hand you can have healing spells that do not resurrect, but then they become useless
it was the case of most level 1 spells, you only used them in the beginning. except in H5, where you had some overpowered level 1 spell (mass haste, slow, curse, bless)
and a combo such as 2 stacks of 1 archangel and a hero with cure was very good.
Quote:
Well personally, I think the solution is very easy: Have a basic, advanced and expert level of the spell. With advanced level, some creatures remain after battle, with expert level, all remain after battle. But like we discussed elsewhere, that would require a complete overhaul of the skill system.
there isn't much to think about, the solution already exists in previous games :
basic : heal one unit
advanced : resurrects until the end of the battle
expert : resurrects permanently
well, provided that it works in H6 too
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 04, 2011 08:04 PM |
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Quote:
except in H5, where you had some overpowered level 1 spell (mass haste, slow, curse, bless)
Those were also level 1 spells in Heroes 3.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 08:08 PM |
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oh right. I was thinking H2 and H4, where they were level 3-4 spells
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 08:57 PM |
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Healing spells are OP in early game and that's it.
The simple solution is to make Heal, Regenration and Life Drain Level 15 spells.
I do not think it is nescessary to do anything more with them, maybe buff them a bit if they get to underpowered at level 15.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 09:55 PM |
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Enthral does not work on stacks stronger than the stack of Lilim which use the ability so I don't know why do you praise it so much - it's not overly-useful and is balanced as it is)
Did you try it? You should be able to enthrall +- 1.5 times your strenght for 1 round which is powerfull enough. For 2 rounds you need a less powerfull target +- 75%.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2011 09:59 PM |
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By "stronger" I mean this power ratio calculation (don't know if your numbers are correct though, I haven't seen any official document confirming this). It's hard to tell what does "1.5 times" mean when you are using it on Elites on Champions given that you don't have the base (the "1") but the point is that you can't disable much stronger stacks with it - only creatures of relatively comparable strength.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 10:15 PM |
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Well the manual doesn't give the correct information as damage doesn't cancel the enthrall or then it's a bug. But 10 lilims can enthrall +- 15 lilims too (same relative power). I did the first inferno mission in less than 3 months (2-4-4) without losing a single unit and clearing everything. Just because lilims and hellhounds form a considerable force. Might hero with 60 mana. With gating you can have 4 stacks of lilims controlling the last units easily if you split lilims in 2 groups. Vestals are very strong of course but can't do such things  .
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2011 10:25 PM |
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You can do that only on the weakest stacks and as you said - part of the ability is probably bugged as attacking the affected creature should dispel it. So it does work on weak neutrals but then again you can beat such groups only with Gating and brute force without losses, i.e. they are not a problem in the first place. Splitting the Lilim is not an option against large (or rather "powerful") stacks because they won't be able to enthral anything.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted November 04, 2011 11:19 PM |
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To be efficient, Lilim should cast Enthrall before enemy attacks. Against Shooters that's often not possible since Lilim have a low Initiative, and thus, in this case, there is no miracle: you need a resu spell and/or high tier creatures with skill(s) allowing them to reach shooters in 1 move.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 04, 2011 11:26 PM |
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The thing I like about it is that it requires less skill in general to avoid loses.
In earlier games you'd have to replay a map multiple times on SP, save the game before early creeping, and try until you'd get a best solution against all types of units that can appear as guards of something important to you. That way you could easily outperform people in a real game who were reluctant to train like that.
With healing&ressurecting being accessible to everyone without much fuss, it just removes the need to train for proper creeping, since it's rather easy. And to be honest, I like it. I spent hours trying to learn perfect peninsula creeping patterns in our Heroes 5 LAN tournament, I'd rather not be forced to do it again 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2011 12:03 AM |
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I am pretty sure that 99% of all HoMM players never took the game THAT seriously.
More balance & less "mandatory" skills -> pleasing the extreme minority of hardcore players.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted November 05, 2011 12:23 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:24, 05 Nov 2011.
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I personally enjoy the new Healing spells, I find them strong but not OP (unlike in the Beta).
The fact that their effectiveness varies depending on class (Magic/Might and Tears/Blood) keeps them balanced in my opinion.
They are a strategic choice we did not have in previous Heroes, which makes the game richer.
I disagree with the notion to bump them to level 15 spells (too late in game development!) but would vote for moving them to level 5 instead - this way they are not available for early creeping but still useful for the better part of a Heroes map.
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