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| Thread: Heroes 2 balance / gameplay analysis |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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X-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2011 05:46 PM |
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Heroes 2 balance / gameplay analysis
Hi guys, I just subscribed into the Heroes Community forum, after being fan of the HOMM franchise for... 15 years!
After having played Heroes 2 extensively, I can truely speak about some balance / gameplays within.
Ok just to start, here is the never-old balance / faction ranking :
1) Warlock ( obvious and clearly Overpowered):
Special building producing +500 gold per turns gives an astonishing advantage for such elite creatures
Dragon immune to spell and strongest unit while "only" 4000g + 2 sulfur to 5000g + 2 gem with titan.
Hydra with teleport IS the strongest level 5 creature. So strong that it acts like a small level 6 creature. Very slow creature but when teleporting you have an absurd advantage.
Minotaur one of the best level 4 creature (Only Vampire and Ogre better), very fast, tanky, always a threat.
2) Necromancer - POS Expansion only - third faction else.
Shrine gives +10% of Necromancy each. It is cumulative.
2 Shrines gives +20% with expert necromancy it gives 50% => Half of the creatures are converted into Skeleton.
Vampire lord stronger than most level 5. So strong it can fight army alone and with Steelskin / Blood lust can life leech alot.
Animate dead + Vampire being so strong it can win battles alone.
Bone dragon being an "average" level 6 but only costing 1500 gold without extra ressource is very strong.
Seems to get more chance than others to get Dimension Door on his fifth level mage guild.
Skeleton being the strongest level 1 unit.
Skeleton + teleport between shooters being extremely good if you farmed a decent amount of skeleton.
Necromancer seems slow (their Dragon is of average speed, only Power liches being very fast). That's why you NEED Power liches + Mass haste spell on your fighting hero.
Necropolis just needs one unit to farm every neutral : Vampire lord
Price of loyalty expansion added the Spade of Necromancy which adds AGAIN +10% of your Necromancy skill. It is on every POS map almost.
3)Wizard
Often easy to get Double image and strongest spell (Mass x)
Titans are the second strongest units - can't be affected by Mind spells. BUT can be boosted by your spell. Incredible advantage.
No melee penalty for Archmage / Titans.
Boar scouting gives an early game advantage (Boar being a "very fast" unit).
Wizard is NOT GOOD by itself. Without Titans it would become fourth faction easily. But Titans are so damn good that IF you get them, you can be considered second faction easily - though you will never beat the OPness of Warlock.
Rest is average or sub-par.
4) Sorceress
Very fast upgraded shooter, Ultra fast Phoenix, means that you will ALWAYS attack with everything first.
Mass slow on enemies is very strong with Sorceress.
Dwarves are clearly the strongest level 2 units and are easy to gather. Always a threat till mid-end game.
Quite decent level 5 unit (Unicorn) altho the dwelling cost is abit too much - 10 gems 10 woods 3000g.
Rest sucks horribly (Phoenix are very bad, sprites are average early game, and Sorc'Heroes suck alot)
5)Barbarian
Heroes are the strongest by far and they can't be stoped late game.
Wolves and Trolls do an impressive attack, but they are very fragile.
Rest is very bad. Very bad.
6) Knight
Champions are ultra fast which means they'll start first unless against other Champions / Phoenix.
Heroes are second strongest, with a good attack and excellent defense skill.
Although irrelevant most of the times, Knight Heroes got a very small bit of more chance to get diplomacy, the strongest skill to learn.
Crusaders kill any Undead very fast. If against an undead, you will win even late game with decent amount of Crusaders - Provided you are not dead before...
Rest is extremely bad.
Because Heroes of Might & Magic serie has ALOT of random elements, balance "may" chance on very poor ressource map : Knight and Barbarian are average - even there they still are bad.
Necropolis can be as good as tied up-first and as low as last faction the less Shrine / Neutral there is to fight, and the latest you do Vampire lord / acquire Necromancy skill.
Thus, overall, placing Necro second. Because on most Mid - every Large map, they clearly are second.
OK, now on to the game itself:
The Warlock in Heroes 1 were even more OP due to hydra playing in a smaller battlefield. In Heroes 2 they still are, but luck plays a very important role in this franchise :
Every game is decided on some spells / Units / skills.
Let me explain : If you can reach Expert diplomacy quite early in game, You got an absurd advantage and should probably win given you have a decent amount of money.
The same can be said late game with a 7+ knowledge hero with Dimension Door. You can travel immense distance in just one day, you can scout easily and recover just after, or you can just wait for the next day in your castle to replenish mana. Too strong.
Also, there are some units in the game which clearly win games by themselves : Vampire Lord, Dragon, Titan, Hydra + teleport, Skeletons + haste or teleport.
These are way stronger than the others units and create imbalance.
Another unit that ruined POS balance : Ghost from Borrow Mound.
Even with 1 Ghost, you win the game.
Borrow Mound rush could be common given a certain map. And with Fast Vampire you can do it faster than others.
About the Heroes. Yes, Magic Heroes will always lose against Might Heroes unless with Dimension door, mass knowledge and decent attack and defense and a good scouting. But on frontal fight Might are the bests from Mid game to late end game. Yes, imbalanced too.
Also Vision is OP, by knowing what would neutral do...
Before people say how wrong I am, I am a decent player and know the Heroes 2 game mechanic alot.
BTW Heroes 6 is epic 
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mister_kalu
Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2011 02:17 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 01:25, 20 Nov 2011.
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I agree with some points but with 85% of them,not
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X-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2011 07:53 PM |
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Quote:
I agree with some points but with 85% of them,not
Probably because you didn't play enough of it, aren't skilled enough, or just are a troll.
My post was serious.
What don't you agree with ?
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mister_kalu
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2011 10:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree with some points but with 85% of them,not
Probably because you didn't play enough of it, aren't skilled enough, or just are a troll.
My post was serious.
What don't you agree with ?
i'm a expert of heroes 2, I have a decade ( or more) of game play .. if you don't believe me, check my mod on heroes wog post.
all the reasons that you post here, are too random: depends of MANY situations.. and many is a bit.
but with my vast experience, i don't have fear to tell that wizard is the most useful class in the game, fight very near to barbarian ( including that barbarian only have 1 very fast unit)
diplomacy best skill in early game.. ?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 20, 2011 11:12 PM |
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Diplomacy is still the best skill, at any moment of the game. And any Heroes version.
The rest of Executioner post is exactly as any other saying "this is bad, this is good". Relative and depending on skill.
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Era II mods and utilities
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mister_kalu
Known Hero
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posted November 21, 2011 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
Diplomacy is still the best skill, at any moment of the game. And any Heroes version.
The rest of Executioner post is exactly as any other saying "this is bad, this is good". Relative and depending on skill.
not in heroes 2.. diplomacy isn't the best skill.. obviously.
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X-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
Diplomacy is still the best skill, at any moment of the game. And any Heroes version.
The rest of Executioner post is exactly as any other saying "this is bad, this is good". Relative and depending on skill.
No.
It's not relative.
I'm a decent analyst and I have looked at excel comparison table, effect skills, played ofc alot, tried all kind of maps, and my list is pretty spot on.
Now without giving CLEAR arguments i will end it here.
And about Wizard being the best... roflmao dude.
You "may" be a better player than me (idk) but for analysis i think you are wrong.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 22, 2011 03:37 PM |
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Quote:
not in heroes 2.. diplomacy isn't the best skill.. obviously.
Well, from my humble experience, consisting in about 500 H2 games online, I recall that if one of us had diplomacy, the game was predictable. There is no other skill capable to counter balance the fact that you get 10x times more army than the other. But I will listen to your arguments, if you give me any.
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Era II mods and utilities
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mister_kalu
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 08:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Diplomacy is still the best skill, at any moment of the game. And any Heroes version.
The rest of Executioner post is exactly as any other saying "this is bad, this is good". Relative and depending on skill.
No.
It's not relative.
I'm a decent analyst and I have looked at excel comparison table, effect skills, played ofc alot, tried all kind of maps, and my list is pretty spot on.
Now without giving CLEAR arguments i will end it here.
And about Wizard being the best... roflmao dude.
You "may" be a better player than me (idk) but for analysis i think you are wrong.
wizard have 3 best shooters, they do the most of the work, the other task does the resurrect spell.
result?: all the battles or most of them with perfect : no casualities
diplomacy: at least 4 bad qualities:
only works with expert level, only be compared with expert mysticism
if you refuse to accept the monsters, they always will to attack you, making the game more slow and tedious if you have a good army.
you needs a lot of money to use the skill, and in this game the gold always is insufficient.
in the case that you accept the wandering monster, your morale decrease in the most of the situations
maybe on small maps this skill is normal, but on other not really
Salamandre, I think, plays strange maps.
barbarian with archery level 3, and some magic items is a assasin war machine
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 22, 2011 09:17 PM |
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Those arguments did not convince me at all. Diplomacy is not "I buy every monster in my way". It is "I need this stack, that one and those ones". Then deal with opponent. How game is slow and tedious if monsters attack you? The goal of a game is to get experience, thus fight EVERY stack in your way.
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Era II mods and utilities
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X-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 02:21 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Diplomacy is still the best skill, at any moment of the game. And any Heroes version.
The rest of Executioner post is exactly as any other saying "this is bad, this is good". Relative and depending on skill.
No.
It's not relative.
I'm a decent analyst and I have looked at excel comparison table, effect skills, played ofc alot, tried all kind of maps, and my list is pretty spot on.
Now without giving CLEAR arguments i will end it here.
And about Wizard being the best... roflmao dude.
You "may" be a better player than me (idk) but for analysis i think you are wrong.
wizard have 3 best shooters, they do the most of the work, the other task does the resurrect spell.
result?: all the battles or most of them with perfect : no casualities
diplomacy: at least 4 bad qualities:
only works with expert level, only be compared with expert mysticism
if you refuse to accept the monsters, they always will to attack you, making the game more slow and tedious if you have a good army.
you needs a lot of money to use the skill, and in this game the gold always is insufficient.
in the case that you accept the wandering monster, your morale decrease in the most of the situations
maybe on small maps this skill is normal, but on other not really
Salamandre, I think, plays strange maps.
barbarian with archery level 3, and some magic items is a assasin war machine
Barbarian Heroes are broken anyway. Pathfinding + 55 % attack 35 % defense 5 5 % spell power till level 10 is ridiculously strong . Seriously why the snow... ?
Diplomacy is way too strong and breaks the game. It is funny but sometime an auto win button. I will miss it in Heroes 6 (considering it almost never triggers in H6) but at the same time it balances things out.
Also, Necropolis with diplomacy )) Quite amusing.
But Wizard is not the best. It's the most ressource intensive faction, and even then their power isn't near Warlock, which gets +500 gold per turn MORE than Wiz'
Seriously in absolute power, Wizard is a mid faction. Even late game a Necro and Warlock will smash them. You need VERY LATE GAME for Wizard to be a Strong faction.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 05:11 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:11, 23 Nov 2011.
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from what I remember, best early game factions were barbarian (of course) and warlock because of very strong units (if I remember well, it was not particularly hard to get griffins and minotaurs, and they were better than wolves and ogres)
though, the necromancers could easily get dragons, but I remember that vampires lords and lichs were extremly expensive.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 23, 2011 07:47 PM |
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If there was no creature growth and in stead you could just buy for all your money, knights with their champions would rule supreme! (The creature isn't called champion for nothing after all )
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X-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 08:20 PM |
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Quote:
If there was no creature growth and in stead you could just buy for all your money, knights with their champions would rule supreme! (The creature isn't called champion for nothing after all)
You want to troll ? Then :
Not if a Phoenix is attacking with hit & run
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 08:55 PM |
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I think he is taking the price into account. champions are much more cheaper than phoenix.
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 09:00 PM |
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I do not care which faction is how strong or weak or whatever.
Because IT'S DOESN'T MATTER! If someone choose a faction and lear how to play with it really good then she\he could smash every other factions any time!
Just need to learn the factions' tricks.
I, to say something at last, loved the sorceresses and warlocks the most in H2. Phoenix is good, yeah, even if a bit weak. And dragons? Seriously, I never passed red dragons but could win 95% of the battles with them (rest 5% my 'opponent' somehow gathered x2 more titans that my dragons number... Still don't know how he done...).
And just for you to know E-xec, statistics is worth to clear after sh!t. I know someone who could defeat me with barbarians any time, no matter what size of the map or early-mid-end game we are in! She's just learned to play with the barbarians, learned the faction's tricks, perfected her strategies and voilá!
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x-ecutionner
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 09:01 PM |
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I think he is taking the price into account. champions are much more cheaper than phoenix.
Anyway, I rate Champion WAY HIGHER than Phoenix.
Without Champions Knight wouldn't even win one late game fight - they already suck enough
Phoenix is one of the worst unit in Heroes 2 - total opposite to Heroes 3.
In Heroes 2 they cost 1500 gold + one mercury each, Bone Dragon just 1500 gold for 150 hp 10-12 attack defense if i remember the exact number.
The difference is also in the dwelling price. With luck you can get Bone Dragon on week 1, and so getting easier time to farm.
With Sorceress, good luck getting Phoenix on week 1... Also why should you get them ? They suck so hard...
Bone Dragon is one of the best unit for its price, Phoenix is a waste.
Quote:
I do not care which faction is how strong or weak or whatever.
Because IT'S DOESN'T MATTER! If someone choose a faction and lear how to play with it really good then she\he could smash every other factions any time!
Just need to learn the factions' tricks.
I, to say something at last, loved the sorceresses and warlocks the most in H2. Phoenix is good, yeah, even if a bit weak. And dragons? Seriously, I never passed red dragons but could win 95% of the battles with them (rest 5% my 'opponent' somehow gathered x2 more titans that my dragons number... Still don't know how he done...).
And just for you to know E-xec, statistics is worth to clear after sh!t. I know someone who could defeat me with barbarians any time, no matter what size of the map or early-mid-end game we are in! She's just learned to play with the barbarians, learned the faction's tricks, perfected her strategies and voilá!
It doesn't matter FOR you, but I think it does for most of the Homm fan.
Just to tell you something as an example : My second favorite Homm faction is Fortress. Is it a strong faction ? ... It's so weak you need to capture a second town before the end of week 2.
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 23, 2011 09:07 PM |
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With an army of 5x5 Phoenixes... AI will snow bricks.
And many human player will hit the desk whith it's head...
Only 5x5 dragons better...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 23, 2011 09:26 PM |
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X-ecutionner, I am sorry, but the phoenix is the ultimate weapon in H2.
If your opponent has one of them, you will never reach any of his towns alive. He will eat you alive with hit and run. Hopefully it was tweaked in HoMM3 with spells doing less damage, movement restricted after surrendering, antimagic terrains and speed artefacts.
That is why sorceress is, was and it will always be the best H2 faction. We are not talking about who is stronger one on one, but about a bunch of available tactics which negate any strength or force comparisons. In Heroes II, speed is the only parameter which has no counter. By the time you can react, half of your shooters are lightened, opponent already gone and coming again with full movement.
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Era II mods and utilities
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 23, 2011 10:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If there was no creature growth and in stead you could just buy for all your money, knights with their champions would rule supreme! (The creature isn't called champion for nothing after all)
You want to troll ? Then :
Not if a Phoenix is attacking with hit & run
I have no intention of trolling, sorry if that's the way it came off.
Sure cast a spell and runaway is pretty strong, and if I recall correct phoenix is immune to weather storm (the weak armageddon form). However (not certain if there's shackles in heroes 2, I don't think there's) it still requires that the hit&runner attacks first, which of course is not hard if you've, like you earlier stated some ~10 knowledge and dimension door. However there's nothing that prevents the enemy hero of having the exact same spells and primary skills, and since champions move first when they strike, I believe all it requires is a mass haste with a divided stack (and since it's the attacker that can adept to the opponents formation that should be no problem). Of course this is pretty useless as it's not something one would encounter in a real game, unless there have been some kind of no attacking deal or something similar. Anyway, I was just comparing creatures in strength independent of the hero strength, I like to compare that kind of stuff.
Further more, in my experience with heroes 2, which is limited compared to heroes 3 and heroes 4, I don't recall
1) Spells doing very much damage, not even armageddon/implosion was that impressive.
2) The sorceress faction having that much money, so I'd imagine hit&run would be a better tactic with knights (I didn't really play a sorc, but hit&run was the way I survived playing knights).
3) There being artifacts that can negate the black dragons magic immunity, making hit & run somewhat useless against a black dragon army.
Edit: Isn't the phoenix actually a bit stronger than the bone dragon in a 1vs1 situation?
Edit2: I think it's underestimating the power of forretress to change town in week 2. Sure a lot of their power comes from the ability to either choose tazar from the start or having a relative high probability of hiring tazar later on and having the fastest scout in the early game, but forretress does gain a lot from hives, +4 speed is quite a lot, not to mention the creatures themselves goes greatly with eachother.
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