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| Thread: Did you know? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 17, 2011 05:57 PM |
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Did you know?
What is the fate of our life-supporting yellow star we call Sol? You know how is it work anyway? (1)
Sol, our sun, as every other stars out there, works based on the principles of fusion. During fusion two, usually same, matter (atoms, particles) crashes and unite into a bigger thing and during this an enormous amount of energy frees. Basicly the fusion within the stars starts with hydrogen-fusion where two hydrogen fuses into a helium(H + H = He). This is where our sun is now, the hydrogen-fusion phase, and have enough hydrogen to keep up this fusion for another ~5-7 billions (5000-7000 millions) of years.
OK you may say, so much we all knew already! What's the deal?
The deal is what follows this phase! As you already knew the hydrogen isn't the only thing that could fuse. And the stars knows it better. Our sun, in a certain point of it's life, start to fuse Heliums to Carbon (He + He = C, but there are some other physical methods what happens resulting Carbon at the end). And if a certain amount of Carbon has been generated the sun will go to rampage!
Why and how?
Every stars exist in the turmoil of two titanic powers: the gravity what wants to crush the star into a tiny piece of the space and the generated energy that literally blows out from the stellar core. As long as everything is OK this two powers are in balance but once the balance must be broken and cause a brutal change. In the case of our sun it looks like that: when enough carbon exist in the stellar core the core's density grows which results the growing of the gravity. The growing gravity results the sun to shrinken until the point where the shrinking results such an upheavel that literally melts the stellar core. As the core melts the gravity decreased suddenly and enormously what results the growing the sun size. The sun became a secondary red-giant (while it assimilates the matter of the first 3 planets)...
But as a secondary red-giant the sun already dieing. The size of the star became way to big to controllable by it's own gravity and the sun, in his red-giant form, slowly fall apart. The spreading matters left a dark star behind, what is a carbon-core with a super-density and great gravity. If it's gravity prove strong enough to trigger a collision with the Jupiter then a new star may be born, if not the surviving planets of the solar system slowly fled their places and wandering through the galaxy to find another place for themselves before the collapse.
You may ask what will be the difference between our sun and a common red-giant...
'Common' or primal red-giants are basicly have a bigger core-density, therefore stronger stellar-gravity than what the sun will have if became a red-giant. These primal red-giants have the ability to survive carbon-fusion stage. The ultimate lethal factor of every stars that could surpass carbon-stage is the Ferrum (Fe) phase.
During the fusions heavier and bigger matters born. And if the star starts to fuse matters to ferrum, then the stars have seconds left from it's life.
Why? Why can't stars just fuse ferrum to something else and live?
Although such matters than Thorium (Th) may able to fuse, the Ferrum is unique. Fe is the only known matter what soak energy, bind it and thus stop the energy flowing within the star what means from the two powers only the gravity left. The star collapse within seconds into a point where it's density growth such big that even gravity itself vanished for a tiny moment. And exactly when this happen the star become a super-nova, a miniature 'big-bang'.
And after a super-nova there are two options: The stellar core left behind as a super-dense 'white-dwarf' or became a fast-spinning neutron star, a Pulsar.
This happens if the red-giant do not assimilate any significant additional matter into itself. If it does the result will be a black-hole (sometimes born without super-nova explosion).
Yeah, black-holes... Cool, but WTF?!
Black-holes are essentially time-space breaches that trapping anything, even light itself, and assimilate into themselves. Their core is way smaller than the hyper-heavy white-dwarves, their gravitic-wheel manipulates the time-flow itself and warp the surrounding space (that causes the time-trouble). Black-holes have such a strong gravity that they keep galaxies together, as every known galaxies' core is essentially a black-hole.
And those black-holes slowly 'eat' everything around themselves (sometimes a whole galaxy!) before they become such nasty that they start to 'eat' themselves. The result is an unimaginable energy-matter explosion (essentially 'big-bang') what spread the energy and matter of a whole galaxy...
And everythings starts again... Stars born from the spread-out matter, planets forming, stars die, black-holes born, etc...
So, did you find it interesting?
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 19, 2011 03:23 AM |
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A little terrifying I must say.
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And if a certain amount of Carbon has been generated the sun will go to rampage!
This is the trigger of all those events, I gather. So, there is no indication or data on when this might happen? Please don't say "no" 
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 19, 2011 08:50 AM |
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Quote:
A little terrifying I must say.
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And if a certain amount of Carbon has been generated the sun will go to rampage!
This is the trigger of all those events, I gather. So, there is no indication or data on when this might happen? Please don't say "no"
The estimated time what is left from Sol's life is about 5-10.000.000.000 years. But it higly depends on what matter fall into the sun during this time. If more hidrogen than the life of the star expands while in case of heavier matters, what strenghten the gravity, the lifespan will shorten. But 5.000.000.000 years is perfectly sure, so don't worry!
Expect if we put an extreme amount of energy right in the stellar-core what is physically possible but means instant extermination of all life in our solar system (this is what some call 'forced super-nova effect').
But some may argue that the 'Chandrasekhar-limit' determines a lots of things... Yes, but that limit is determined by the 'natural' interactions of the stars and not counted the 'artificial' efforts.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 19, 2011 09:43 AM |
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i do know,but do not care,since none of us are going to live that long for that happen.by then humanity will find another home in the stars.
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types in obscure english
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 19, 2011 01:04 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
A little terrifying I must say.
Quote:
And if a certain amount of Carbon has been generated the sun will go to rampage!
This is the trigger of all those events, I gather. So, there is no indication or data on when this might happen? Please don't say "no"
The estimated time what is left from Sol's life is about 5-10.000.000.000 years. But it higly depends on what matter fall into the sun during this time. If more hidrogen than the life of the star expands while in case of heavier matters, what strenghten the gravity, the lifespan will shorten. But 5.000.000.000 years is perfectly sure, so don't worry!
Oh, I know they say it has so many years of life still. But from what you wrote I thought this generation of excessive carbon could happen with a surprise. Well, it seems I'm wrong, whic is great
Quote:
by then humanity will find another home in the stars.
I could give anything to have that now. But I'm sure even if that happens the first people to go would be Americans and Chinese. Maybe they'll buy that whole star and that will lead to another world war.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted November 19, 2011 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
I could give anything to have that now. But I'm sure even if that happens the first people to go would be Americans and Chinese. Maybe they'll buy that whole star and that will lead to another world war.
Interstellar war, I'd say.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 19, 2011 04:48 PM |
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Oh, I know they say it has so many years of life still. But from what you wrote I thought this generation of excessive carbon could happen with a surprise. Well, it seems I'm wrong, whic is great
Oh yeh hummanity is going to die out quite soon actually from that, if there's any truth to the matter. Only the earth won't die for another 5,000,000,000 years. 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 19, 2011 06:40 PM |
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Well, the ****tardiness of the 'not-so-bold' humanity is not the theme of this topic btw.
I intented this a science thread.
Everyone know humanity 'is not so lucky' and will extinct.
But science is something what is not known by anyone on the same level.
And this is the OSM not the VW so please do not want to kill humanity here Thanks!
EDIT
I did it again, didn't I, Corribus?
Sorry again, even if it's not so much...
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 19, 2011 08:31 PM |
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Watch your language Duke
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted November 22, 2011 04:44 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 04:49, 22 Nov 2011.
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Good thread,I just want to point out a few things.
Earth's fate will be sealed 1 billion years from now,not 5.In 1 billion years,the extra output of energy will evaporate our oceans.Well,actually,life wont exist and earth will start to look like a potato.
Secondly,the idea that SETI(Search of extraterrestrial intelligence) has not found any intelligent civilizations or signs of it in space,is a pretty bad sign for us.
This might imply that an intelligent society might never make into space because they go extinct,ie death by nuclear war or premature extinction by mass extinction events.
The earth is infamous with mass extinction events.During the last 540 milion years,the ammount of mass extinctions might range up to 20.
Thridly,our sun will not leave its planets after it becomes a white dwarf.It will eat 3 of them,and spray the others with its outer shell.
It is really tragic how our beautiful earth will end.Life will die an agonizing death with increasing temperatures and in the end it will be devoured by the sun other than that.
Actually,as ants to the world outside their colony,we humans are to the galaxy.
the sun as a red giant
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sun_red_giant.svg
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 22, 2011 05:15 AM |
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Quote:
Secondly,the idea that SETI(Search of extraterrestrial intelligence) has not found any intelligent civilizations or signs of it in space,is a pretty bad sign for us.
Considering the relative short time span the search has been going on when comparing to the time it actually takes for light to travel throughout the universe, I'd say it's not very surprising.
Even when we've telescopes sophisticated enough to see light from cities, it doesn't take many hundreds of light years of distance, before the aliens either won't yet have registrered us, or even if they have, that their signal have not gotten to us yet. Further more, we only know about intelligence as it is on Earth. We might need to redefine a lot of things in time to come and by then it might be obvious for several other reasons why there may be no response.
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It is really tragic how our beautiful earth will end.Life will die an agonizing death with increasing temperatures and in the end it will be devoured by the sun other than that.
There's a lot of things that can happen. We do however actually have a lot of means to do avoid even what is often imagined to be the ultimate fate of our planet.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted November 22, 2011 12:09 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 12:12, 22 Nov 2011.
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Even when we've telescopes sophisticated enough to see light from cities, it doesn't take many hundreds of light years of distance, before the aliens either won't yet have registrered us, or even if they have, that their signal have not gotten to us yet. Further more, we only know about intelligence as it is on Earth. We might need to redefine a lot of things in time to come and by then it might be obvious for several other reasons why there may be no response.
Well,you are right.The speed of light is too slow in space.One could consider that intelligent life might exist,but we are just seeing the past when we look through our telescope.So,even if we ever registered intelligent life with our telescopes,that would be millions of years before.
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There's a lot of things that can happen. We do however actually have a lot of means to do avoid even what is often imagined to be the ultimate fate of our planet.
Not really.The problem is actually unsolvable or so.Theoretically,we could only leave for another planet in our system, or invent stasis and travel through space.Our current physics theories do not allow for FTL.
Nevertheless,the main problem in space travel is that only our will have technology evolved,not us.We are the same primitive,self destructive,self defeating beings as 2000,10000 and perhaps 1 million yeas before.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 22, 2011 01:37 PM |
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[quote
Nevertheless,the main problem in space travel is that only our will have technology evolved,not us.We are the same primitive,self destructive,self defeating beings as 2000,10000 and perhaps 1 million yeas before.
Would you have it any other way?
Besides 'Earth' was here long before we arrived, we are incapable of harming her. The concept that humans are artifically harming the planet is absurd, at best humans are a form of catalyst. (I said planet, not inhabitants or ecosystems)
Myself I don't consider humans to be native to earth, the destructive nature is unparallel to any other species; the effects humans are having can be compared to those of an organism that is 'moved' out of its habitat and itroduced to a new biome/ecosystem.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted November 22, 2011 01:47 PM |
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Quote:
life-supporting yellow stars
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They're gonna explode?!
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 22, 2011 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
They're gonna explode?!
'tis the fate of all spammers 'm afraid.
Atleast we go out with a bang 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 22, 2011 02:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
There's a lot of things that can happen. We do however actually have a lot of means to do avoid even what is often imagined to be the ultimate fate of our planet.
Not really.The problem is actually unsolvable or so.Theoretically,we could only leave for another planet in our system, or invent stasis and travel through space.Our current physics theories do not allow for FTL.
My apologies if this does sound harsh, but I think that's not very imaginative.
One of the simplest approaches is to move the planet so the distance to the sun is in accordance with the goldilock zone. There are a lot of ways to do this, but one of the simpliest and most appreciable, in my opinion, is to push asteroids over millions of years and take energy out of the changed gravity system of these asteroids as they pass the Earth. In principle, you can then end up with a system, where you can move the Earth outwards and inwards in the solar system at will, without the Earth loosing its orbit or anything nasty.
But for all what it's worth, who knows what energy ressources we have access to in the future. If we really can take advantage of not only the suns leftovers, but actually much more powerful events, we'll suddenly have the ability to make the most incredible processes happen. Of course also assuming we'll at that time have the necessary technology for all of this.
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 03:36 PM |
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So, some new theme! (2)
I think all of you know something about that abomination who once called (sir) Isaac Newton. This person said a lot of thing about physic and many of his theories are well known by everyone as part of the elementary education. You know, the newtonian principles (the 3 law of Newton) and his(questionable) theory of Gravity.
What is gravity? You may say a force that tracks things toward mater-densities (stars, planets, yellow-submarines in space with Elton John). You may say gravity is a vector. And you do so because you taught so(no problem with this as many people won't ever understand the true gravity or anything else in cosmology).
Gravity is a vector what is always curved as it must travel through a bended space, because everything (mater and energy alike) bend the space around itself. Gravity is a wave that have a time-dimension and exist between every single portion of mater(between photons, quarks, elektrons whatever you want) in the universe. And believe it or not, gravity is the weakest known force that exists in the universe!
You may ask that gravity is the weakest? But how could it be possible then that gravity stops us to levitate up and left the planet like Superman?
The answer is simple: every mater has gravitic properties and as there is many mater exist their gravitic properties accumulate(1 is a small number but 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+(...)+1 will be a great number...). And as such gravity has the strange property to trap even light if there is enough concentrated mater to create an adequate gravitic field to do so(just think about black-holes).
And as you may realised I wrote that gravity has a time dimension. This is important because that is the part that makes Newton's gravitic theory wrong in the form as Newton said and you learned!
Newton set up his theory in a world where both the time and space is absolute therefore Newton's gravity will work as an absolute gravity. But time and space are not absolute but dinamyc! Why is this so important? Because in a dinamyc space mater could be mater or anti-mater and mater could be both particle and wave.
And? What's the deal? you may ask.
Mater generates gravitic field while anti-mater could generates anti-gravity(and when it met with mater and both destroys it do exactly this). The mater's particle-wave duality is important because a particle emits gravitic field while wave transport it wherever the wave goes!
If you think about it you will realise that the gravity is more that you ever thought and have effects in more matter that you imagined.
But what about the 'time is not absolute' thing?
Do you think that the time passes everywhere with the same speed? Do you think the time passes with the same speed on a beach and on a mountain village?
If you wanted to answer yes, then you failed.
Dinamism of time means that closer to a bigger energy or mater concentration the time hastes while farter from those the time slows. On a beach the time passes faster than in a village on a mountain's top, believe it or not, and this difference is about 1-3 seconds\year! So, literally if you get into a starship, travel a bit in space and return to Earth you will experience that you got less older than those whom left on Earth. Spooky, isn't it?
Why is this possible? The answer is: What is time?
Time is a chain of changes and for such changes we need energy or mater to react and thus cause changes. If there is less mater or energy then there is less changes, reactions, etc. what's chain is defined as (experiencable or true) time. But time is different itself! We know that there's exist true time(what you experience every time) and relative time(what flows everywhere with almost equal speed as this kind of time is independent from space).
Strange? Maybe, but I think there is no real need to go further with this matter. Time is hard to describe thus harder to understand and as an ever changing, dinamic thing perfectly accurate description is impossible...
But if someone wants to talk about it then we may could do so... But untill, we may continue this next time!
EDIT:
Sorry, I forget to read your last answers, but I'll do it, and if needed (not done by someone else alreay) will answer it! So to do it easier, everyone put a red mark in her\his answer to know which one theme is connect for it!
This will be the 2 marked post...
Thank you your understanding!
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Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted December 09, 2011 06:54 PM |
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OK, some reactions...
I.: The estimated time before Sol go nuts and make a Mercur-Venus-Earth eating rampage is 4.5-5.5 billions years. If humans mess things up earlier is another matter and if they wants so then do so...
Noone will ever mourn the idiot race once called Human. Even the other life forms will be happy if humans go into oblivion...
Face it, accept it and try to stop it if you want...
II.: Traveling between the stars is take a long time yet but since we discovered that some things are faster than light we may able to build engines capable of FTL. It may takes 100 or 200 or 500 or 1000 years, who knows, but if we survive so long we will capable to do so. Until then SL traveling will be adequate to conquer or vicinity (the Centauries e.g.)...
But there is some formulas what says that if you accelerate with 30g on a distance like the Earth-Jupiter distance then you could reach a velocity where you could forget the laws of normal physic and light-speed cap. I only saw once the formula, and so far I do not know if it is correct or have some little flaws, but looks good. Maybe it is provide some alternative ways of interstellar traveling before FTL starfaring...
III.: Contact with aliens? If there is intelligent life out there (must be even matemathically) the best sign of their intelligence that they not even tried to contact with us...
Seriously...
SETI is a way what we think the others must follow. But radio-wave communication is not the only option for an alien race so radio-telescopes are futile if they don't use radio waves. But there are other options!
Look at this picture closely:
What's that? Good question! The answer: a receptor.
The core is a 10-15m radius globe contains computers and a radio-wave emitter to send informations to our obsolate SETI.
The long things are wave receptors varying between 1cm to 10cm in diameter and all have a about 500-1000m. This great variability enables them to catch really different kinds of waves and different lenghted waves, NOT ONLY radio waves like SETI.
So the long receptor catches waves what the core analyse and send the collected datas back to us for further study. If there are attempts from aliens to communicate with us from a distance then this thing could catch their signals.
This artificial creation is very similar to this critter:
Now we could await the third type encounters!
Fair enough but need some money from the US or whatever country's presidents to build this...
And you know what? No new theme this time! Maybe later, but not yet... I am quite sure the two themes already here is more than enough to think about for a while...
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Mentat
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted December 21, 2011 12:12 PM |
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Quote:
II.: Traveling between the stars is take a long time yet but since we discovered that some things are faster than light we may able to build engines capable of FTL. It may takes 100 or 200 or 500 or 1000 years, who knows, but if we survive so long we will capable to do so. Until then SL traveling will be adequate to conquer or vicinity (the Centauries e.g.)...
But there is some formulas what says that if you accelerate with 30g on a distance like the Earth-Jupiter distance then you could reach a velocity where you could forget the laws of normal physic and light-speed cap. I only saw once the formula, and so far I do not know if it is correct or have some little flaws, but looks good. Maybe it is provide some alternative ways of interstellar traveling before FTL starfaring...
FTL, strange thing it is... As I remember you explained me once that the light (every light even lasers) are particles and waves in form and because of the continuos changing between these forms results the measured lightspeed. And this lightspeed is not the fastest known speed in he universe.
You said me once that light travels in impulses and not continously and that's slow it down to lighspeed (not quite remember your explanation but it was correct, now we know this) so if the light may travel continuosly as a pure wave it will be faster than light (FTL)...
How ironic: light could be faster than light...
But some questions:
1: At lightspeed we could see but at FTL we can't so how could we navigate at FTL speed? We must need some special navigation\sensor system to do so, don't we?
2: Micrometeorites. They fast and because of this they could do enormous damage in things under a certain time-frame. But if we crash with FTL or even lightspeed with a smaller thing (e.g. a head-sized rock) won't it hit with us with the power of dozens of atomics? Without certain protection these small things render everything into trash. So we need some shields, ain't we?
3: Manouvering is an issue to. Faster the moving speed is harder to change direction in motion. Thus what if we want to turn when we moving with lightspeed or FTL? How could we gather such force that could do so without the danger that the reacting forces crush our craft into tiny pieces?
Until we could answer these questions I think there is utterly futile even to dream to FTL traveling.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted December 21, 2011 05:00 PM |
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Mentat: Image you are travelling close to the speed of sounds. The closer you get, the less of a warning you will get via your ears.
Now, in FTL or near "c" speed, the same applies. With FTL, you need to have some kind of method, how about a premapped starchart which gives a route on where you won't hit anything?
Or how about using FTL particles as radars? Providing they do work in such a way?
The starcharts alone would be good enough to FTL, the problems will be that you need to pay a cost in drones or blood to gather them.
Byt yes... rocks..... the non-relativistic 1/2mv^2 is sure a pest, and while its inaccurate at higher than 0.1c, its still a pest, and reffering to it as "atoms" in folds of energy is a really way of expression oneself.
I guess ftl sonars and perhaps shields, or some extremely odd unpredicted tech. Most likely it will fall on sonars.
As for turning? In theory you can't do that with the current knowledge of science. While it does not take the full amount of energy used to gain such a speed in the first place, it will still be too much. Such a thing can't be done with our current knowledge of science, and its not a issue of crew or ships material strenght either, its just that it will take too long.
So most likely it will be speculative science, like manipulating inertia, or some extremely odd drive mechanic that ignores such problems.
Note: c means 3*10^8, or lightspeed as people like to call it.
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