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| Thread: Skill Impact |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 21, 2011 10:26 PM |
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Poll Question:
Skill Impact
One of the things that concerns me on the new skill system is their low impact in combat compared to previous heroes, each level gives very minor bonuses. They definitely add up as levels accumulate(which is easier now given the new xp rates) and it can act as a failsafe against rushing but they just.. lack punch. I often pick a few skills and then let the rest accumulate until more interesting skills are available or I feel that the missing skills are needed. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, however I would very much like to see tier 1 skill choice(and by extension tier 2) to become HARD! Some skills are quite obviously meant to be picked later on, whether you pick them early or not is pretty much insignificant. What I would like to see would be tier 1 and tier 2 to be useful early, to feel like picking them.
How do you feel about it? Please do not mention other flaws of the system, I would rather we focus on this issue for the time being.
DISCLAIMER:
We have actually made some suggestions to the devs many of which will be coming at a later date so don't expect things to remain as they are. Also I am not in favour of H5 skill impact where 3 levels could give you 30% chance for +100% dmg or 30% dmg reduction but I consider minor boosts an equally bad decision. Finally when I talk of skill impact I am not talking in general. I am mostly referring to skills like:
Archery 6%, assailant +1(+ rep bonus), destiny's chosen +3, arcane exaltation +2, light magic +3, toughness 2%, siege master(...) and so on. Actually disregard magic skills(dark, earth etc) since they need a rework rather than a boring +3 per level.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted November 22, 2011 12:41 AM |
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Agreed. There's just hardly any... satisfaction in placing individual skills. The effects are many times hardly noticeable on the passive skills, and the active ones are limited as you can only use one/round.
I don't feel like I'm really getting much stronger from placing my skills. After getting what I want, saving up till level 15... I just dump points into stat boosts... Not very fun at all.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2011 04:30 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 04:42, 22 Nov 2011.
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I voted mixed feelings because:
in one sense everything in the game has been toned down compared to H5, like attack - defence stat is only 2.5% instead of 5%, morale/luck only 1% probability per point & effect is approx half of TotE, not as much difference between highest tier & lowest tier creature anymore, creatures lot more sturdy etc...the lower impact of skills fit the rest of the theme because everything is halved approximately [yet some of the higher skills/spells are a bit too powerful ].
in another sense, yep after a few choice skills at first, just feel like saving them, which is wrong for this type of game...morale & luck hero stat comparison (1% x 0.5) compared to attack/defence stat (2.5%) is a joke, [possibly except for factions that is dependent on morale/luck also for their racial]...I'd like more impact overall but not just on the skills & I feel they went the less impact route on the whole game to satisfy the worry about luck that was complained about in previous games - a little bit overdone...I think higher impact of skills may possibly also have to occur with higher impact of other things in the game.
+3 attack if it's 5% per stat instead of 2.5% per stat is quite a difference...I somehow also feel they could have went half way between the two & also morale/luck could have been more than 1% for each hero stat point or something like that.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 22, 2011 05:57 AM |
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I haven't minded it so far. In retrospect some of those high-end skills in H5 were pretty damn radical. You got a skill like Retribution and it's like your hero is 1/4th more powerful off of a single skill.
The level 10/15 skills in H6 still pack a pretty heavy punch though. Heroic Charge comes to mind above all of them when I was doing the Stronghold campaign. Your harpies become unbelievably powerful.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2011 06:10 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 06:14, 22 Nov 2011.
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IMO, H5 needed retribution for might factions (except inferno) without enlightenment (kinda to equalise enlightenment effects at higher levels & also attack skill only gave 5% per level)...[but if one had might faction & got retrib AND enlight AND high levels...]
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 22, 2011 06:24 AM |
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Well, the skill wheel in H5 was labyrinthine but tons of fun, but that goes along with some of the shortcomings of it. Enlightenment was a godly skill and Attack was simply chosen to get the perks, namely Retribution. I don't like how a few select skills weighed so heavily on how powerful your hero would be. I do miss how each faction was noticeably unique with its skills though. H6 really went into overdrive on decreasing variables in the game. I'm okay with skills packing less of a punch overall but I'd find it more fun if the skill chart was diversified more, balance be damned.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2011 06:35 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 06:42, 22 Nov 2011.
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yep...but the developer's theme of perfect balance between factions & minimal randomisation can be loaded words however
balance between skills to make them more equally likeable (some forum members have mentioned this heaps of times) I'm sure they will work on & get better; but saving them up & re-speccing for higher level better skills? not sure...
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 10:01 AM |
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Well in my oppinion its not so much as that skills need a boost.
i myself woudnt mind if it got a whole rework. as much as i like the new system there are so many skills that are pretty much a must have and some that you will almost never pick, no matter what faction you are. duck and cover , Battlematch wich ofcourse have some uses but are simply to situational and there are plenty of other better picks.
I also get the feeling that some core skills are a little bit too present. Whethever i go might or magic 80% of the time my first bunch skills for that faction are nearly the same if not the same.
and it pretty much always adds up to that utility will give you more bennifit as the minor boost skills.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 10:28 AM |
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Edited by odium at 10:29, 22 Nov 2011.
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For some reason I get the impression that you are referring mostly at some usable skills that require a boost . However, there is a distinctive class of skills that require a major boost or redesign, namely the useless skills  .
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bigjocker
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Forgotten but not Forsaken
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posted November 22, 2011 11:31 AM |
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I tottally agree with Elvin. And what I also think is that there are just main skills which everyone chooses and other skills are crap (that's why noone chooses them), so these skills need remakes or boosts. If remaking/boosting these skills player would ALWAYS win something and lose somthing at the same time. There would be a lot more choises and strategies than we have now.
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HoMM3Lite
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 11:46 AM |
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I think, that the system, as it is, cries for more INTERACTIVITY between skill effects.
Archery is an example for something well done. Archery I: you get a fairly unspectacular general PASSIVE bonus. Archery II: you get more bonus IF you play accordingly. BOTH may sum up rather nicely.
Additionally casting Storm Arrows in the right moment will add quite some punch again.
There should be more of this, though.
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httassadar
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 02:03 PM |
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Luck and morale system is seriously broken. Not because it is weaker compared with H5, but it is useless compared with other stats/abilities in H6, and luck doesn't trigger anyway. You take burning determination for haven, not rely on increasing hero leadership...
On the other hand, if you work out the math, in H5 it is not +1 attack = +5% damage. The effect was "linear" in H5, but "exponential" in H6 -- meaning the marginal effect decreases fast in H5. It's 5% from 0 to 1, but only 2.5% from 20 to 21, while in H6, it's pretty much always 2.5% every one point gain
Also, in H5, one ability/perk is roughly equal to 2 primary stats (lots of them designed like that), so players choice (ability) = 2 * random stats increase. In H6, you have ability for +2 might power/defense/..., but you gain 4 primary stats increase every level up, so players choice = 0.5 * random stats increase (which isn't consistent with their idea of taking random out of the game)
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 22, 2011 04:30 PM |
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@httassadar, H5 effect of difference between attack vs defence is still about doubled that of H6, regardless of incremental or not.
see my post on this page and some posts after it on succeeding pages (including mine).
BUT yes, you are right in pointing out that H6 has 2 stat points per level instead of 1. The point was that impact of many things in H6 feels less than the impact in H5. [eg. there is no enlightenment stat boost in H6 & no retribution & stats are "diluted" with morale/luck atm etc]
The more I think about the original topic, the more unclear it seems to me whether people would generally like:
- "increased impact of skills" or
- "better balancing between skills to make them more equally effective".
The meanings are slightly different.
Those skills listed in first post would need boosting due to "better balancing between skills" reason too.(imo)
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2011 05:19 PM |
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There was a reason I narrowed down the poll to the former.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted November 22, 2011 05:58 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 18:00, 22 Nov 2011.
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I think these pools are useless, there are still loads of bugs, and no patch so far, map creators cant work on the editor...etc etc 
edit: I like though ubi are creating contests every day
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 06:10 PM |
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Trust me, they are working on a patch. They are favoring larger patches than having a small bug fix patch every week like Blizzard.
As for the topic, I have been against the boring, weaker "+1/2/3 Stat" skills from the start.
I think all those skills like +1/2/3 Dark Magic Power / Morale / Luck / Attack either need to be removed, or heavily improved or changed.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2011 06:24 PM |
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You think insiders are making polls for teh lulz? I find your lack of faith disturbing diegis.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted November 22, 2011 06:35 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 18:40, 22 Nov 2011.
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where says "insiders"?...are you not in the army? At least i see u alive...
As for "disturbing"...i think by contrary, im constructive 
edit: good news btw!
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted November 22, 2011 07:00 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 19:02, 22 Nov 2011.
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I think the main issue here is that the level up itself brings more power than the skill selected.
Previous heroes benefited in no way (except in h4) from level up itself, so the skills and base stats were more generous in that aspect.
I wouldn't mind lowering the effect of level up in hero strength, and transferring some of those bonuses back to the root elements, the 8 base stats and active skills.
Keep in mind that one of the features of H6, where tavern heroes start up 5 levels behind main instead of at level 1, only increases this issue, as those levels deepen the feeling of skills and base stats being less important.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 22, 2011 07:26 PM |
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Well, i like homm 5 skill impact more, homm 6 feels kinda boring. What i simply love is balance, but who cares about balance if u are bored to dead ...
Anyways, i havent played the game ( only the demo ), so i might be wrong.
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