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| Thread: Defence Specialists |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 27, 2004 11:28 AM |
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Revived.
Very usefull infos and explanations though...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 30, 2004 11:08 PM |
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Quote:
greetings.
It's quite logical that attack should fare better than defense against spell users.
The faster the spellusers troops falls the less problems from the spells he casts.
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To Sum it Up. High defense really shines when having creatures with nasty special abilitys!! Fortress (and Necropolis) is placed high for that.
Other towns doesn't have that many, if any creatures, with special abilitys there have more value in a long battle than in a short!
with regards
Jondifool
It's one of the best post I've ever read on these boards.
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night_on_earth
Hired Hero
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posted September 21, 2006 02:41 PM |
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SOS writes about damage calculation
Quote:
The specific formula, including all factors, is this:
Base damage = damage rolled per creature's abilities. This includes the (attack skill + 1) multiplier for Ballistas.
Bonus damage = total extra damage, including:
[...]
+base damage * archery skill (10% to 50%) bonus for shooters.
Edit: IMHO, archery skill could exceed 50% with artifacts, no?
Quote:
[...]
Damage reduction = 100%
[...]
* 50% if attacker is a shooter in melee, and is not a mage, archmage, titan, beholder, evil eye, medusa, medusa queen, enchanter, or ballista.
I believe zealots are missing in this list.
What about storm and ice elementals? Csarmi wrote in [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17267&pagenumber=4]this thread[/url], that storm elementals get a melee penalty. Is this also valid in Heroes Complete? What about ice elementals?
Quote:
[...]
* 50% if attacker is shooting through a wall and is not a mage, archmage, enchanter, or sharpshooter, and the attacker does not have the Golden Bow.
[...]
Edit: I thought, this applies only to shooters outside the wall. Also, ordinary mages should not be on the list according to the manual.
Quote:
Final damage = (base damage + bonus damage) * damage reduction, but no less than 1.
Thus, anything that gives a bonus to damage is additive, but anything that gives a penalty is multiplicative.
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night on earth
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Jamess14
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2009 02:56 PM |
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Edited by Jamess14 at 15:32, 06 Apr 2009.
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Something came to mind, hope you don't burn me for it. We have 3 armorer specialty heroes, being Neela, Mephala and Tazar.
Now I know considering the skill advancement of the 3 classes invovled Neela has the weakest base class. But consider this. If you are aiming for most damage reduced(and you are, that's why you're playing the armorer specialist) Neela actually comes out on the top.
Neela is the only one to get offered Fire Magic and why this means alot in terms of reducing damage is the Expert Curse spell.
If you had a skill that made Minotaur King's damage 12-20 be an all time 12, everyone would take it. Curse spell alone is a GREAT way to reduce damage taken. It only makes sense to combine it with the Armorer specialty. Combined it's awesome. The overall damage reduced in fights against map or people is dramatically increased using the curse spell.
Actually did you know that a hero with Expert Curse and Armorer skill reduces more damage than a lvl 20 Armorer specialist without the Curse?
Here are the number for the above mentioned Minoutaur Kings.
1)Hero A with A/D diff of 28 and Armorer skill(not specialty) against 10 MK's.
10 MK's do 110 damage(Cursed from 12-20).
110*0.3(A/D diff)*0.85(Arm skill)= 27 damage
2)Armorer specialist lvl 20 without Curse
10 MK's do 160 dmg on average.
160*0.3(A/D diff)*0.7(Arm Spec)= 32 damage.
Conclusion: Expert Curse + Amorer Skill reduces more damage than Armorer Specialist lvl 20 without Curse.
Sure you could Base Curse one stack but in large battles with many multiple units we want as much reduction as we want on all attacks so plz don't use 'I can ignore these attacks, and will use Curse on the most dangerous stack'. Sure it can be done, but the goal I'm going for here is to argue the immense benefit having Expert Curse as an armorer has, atleast IMO.
Some feedback would be very appreciated, if I'm wrong plz tell me, and explain why. I've used some effort in making this post so plz don't just dismiss me with oneliner flames('You suck!') and move on Once again the name of the game here is damage reduction, not who has most chance of getting log or developing better.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted April 06, 2009 04:50 PM |
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Mass Curse is great vs map. Especially vs conservatories and hives. Problem is that Water school is pretty cool (Bless, Cure, Dispel, Prayer, Clone) so people often take it, and in human fight mass Bless will counter Curse. That can change battle outcome dramatically. I, personally rarely take Fire
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Jamess14
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2009 05:44 PM |
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Edited by Jamess14 at 17:48, 06 Apr 2009.
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But aren't fights against the map a key to the outcome of the final battle? I think you'll agree that they are. Most people take Air/Earth and often ignore Water, not wanting to have 3 magic schools. Anyways in a human vs human fight you have the advantage of high defense, and you're biggest counter would be some sort of a mage that would hinder your creatures and blast you with high SP. That's why barbs mash mages, mages don't have the time to cast, they're already dead. On the other hand in a fight against us, we would Mass Curse, he would Mass Bless. A mage doesn't want to be casting Bless after Bless, if he does, he has already lost, and his blessed units while playing their turn can't stand up to our own anyway. A barbarian would be a harder opponnent, doing more damage, but still on our turn we Curse, take minimal retaliation damage, rinse and repeat. Just for fun, I'd take Water and Cure away those few damage points enemy is struggling to dish out and to take advantage of other Water goodies.
I also never took Fire Magic, but I think I'll give it a try, see how this combo works, in theory it sounds great Personally in this setup I think I'd take Earth, Water and Fire magic, and not take Air. Would prolly get away with it, Prayer would replace Haste, and we don't really need the initiative, our game is soaking up the points not hacking away in a single turn like barbs with tacts and haste.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 06, 2009 08:26 PM |
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I think this calculation isn't very accurate, coz it only shows a good result when fighting creatures who have big damage range. Take towns who have pretty low range (Castle for example), your curse doesn't help very well.
Second, it doesn't work on any kind of dragon (which often have a big damage range!), nore vs half of the conflux troops. And Necropolis is completely not affected.
Instead of casting curse, I'd rather cast mass shield or mass stoneskin, which always reduces damage by 30% (shield only vs melee...). The only "counter" would be mass dispel, but this won't bring any benefit for the caster.
If I take fire magic, than my only reason would be berzerk.
And btw...curse works a bit different than you described to my knowledge. It is minimum damage -1
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted April 06, 2009 08:30 PM |
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Angelito is right:
Curse spell description incorrectly states that it reduces base damage to:
[(80% of minimum damage) – 1]. It actually reduces it to (minimum damage - 1), down to a minimum of 1.
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Jamess14
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2009 09:56 PM |
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Edited by Jamess14 at 22:04, 06 Apr 2009.
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I know how it acts. Thats why I wrote that 10 of them do 110 damage and not 120.
Ofcourse you'd cast Exp. Shield, we want to lower the damage as possible, Shield wouldn't be overlooked. Till you fight the end fight how many creatures do you think you'll defeat....tons. And just a few will have fixed damage with no range. And even the smallest damage range like 2-3 on marksmen means that a stack of 100 of them will be doing 200 damage instead of 400 or 600. Benefits are quite obvious. And aren't flux and necro's banned from most games? I'm just saying that if Armorer reduced that kind of damage, even not all the time as in the case of angels, nagas, undead and such everyone would call it broken. When you sum up all your fighting all the way through the end, most of your fights and by a great majority will be affected by Curse and to your great benefit.
Besides, isn't Bless in most people's top spell list. Why wouldn't it's exact opposite be great aswell? It just is.
I'm not saying Curse solves every fight or game hands down, I'm saying that done right, you could have an incredibly easy game up until the main fight..as if armorers weren't strong enough.
Ofcourse I don't have your guys playing hours and therefore experience, but it seemed to me this would be a strong combo, only real playing would show how hard is it to get all the pieces to fall together and therefore show its viability..
P.S. I've registered today and posted here(been reading up and enjoying the strats along time before) and it's great to see you people respond the same day especially in a topic with a last reply 3 years ago. It's really cool
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Jamess14
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2009 10:29 PM |
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Edited by Jamess14 at 23:00, 06 Apr 2009.
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Did some testing level ups for Neela. Well it seems the biggest problem is to get the Fire Magic I have Earth, Air, Log thrown at me constantly(looks like no prob with skill chances), but it was kinda hard to get offered Fire and early enough aswell.
UPDATE: After alot more of playtesting it seems that when you get the pieces to fall together it's amazing, but it's very unlikely to happen. Neela just doesn't level up good enough.
So if they don't patch in an Overlord with Arm spec. I'm afraid that Neela cursing enemies is going to happen once in a blue moon. So if you play randoms generally you should forget about it. If however you play a fixed game and have acces to neccesary skills from a Uni or Witch's Hut then by all means, go for it...
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darmo
Known Hero
True Gentleman
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posted June 21, 2009 05:18 AM |
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Can A hero reach Lvl 100? If that is possible, then Tazar lvl 100 will reduce enemy damage up to 90%, that was Huge! Correct me if I'm wrong.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted June 22, 2009 08:57 AM |
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Molda
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 08, 2009 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Molda at 12:41, 08 Jul 2009.
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I prefer most of the time these ones:
- Pathfinding, Armorer, Archery, Air Magic, Logistic, Sorcery, Wisdom and Offence
And i never use navigation, its useless in my opinion.
****EDIT*** I'm sorry, my first reply here and i screwed it. I've accidentaly clicked to reply in different topic then i first wanted. I apologize for this
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 11, 2009 06:20 AM |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 11, 2009 06:59 PM |
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Hahaha...awesome 
Now give the royals a "wraiths" ability, and they will win this fight for sure....after 76 hours 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 11, 2009 07:31 PM |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 11, 2009 09:17 PM |
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Quote:
I gave Tazar 110 level and he lost. What level gives 100% damage reduction then?
I think that's not possible, because a damage of 1 is minimum.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 11, 2009 09:38 PM |
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I know that 100% means 1 damage. Just wanted to know at what level it happens, as from maths, it would be 110?
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Era II mods and utilities
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 12, 2009 02:49 PM |
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Edited by sub_zero at 14:54, 12 Jul 2009.
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armorer is 15%. tazar needs 100/15= 6,67 armorer. he will reach that at lvl 114. (5,67*20=113,4)
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 12, 2009 02:58 PM |
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