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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2013 09:18 PM |
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If you cheat, your spouse can divorce you and she'll/he'll have the upper hand through the legal process. Do you have something more traditional in mind like whipping or castration?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2013 09:22 PM |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2013 09:31 PM |
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artu said:
If you cheat, your spouse can divorce you and she'll/he'll have the upper hand through the legal process.
Sounds like even more of a reason not to cheat.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2013 09:41 PM |
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Cant really see your point, mvass. People may get married thinking they'll never cheat but things may take an unexpected turn. In such cases, there are ALREADY legal consequences. So there's not much wisdom in telling people not to marry if they're going to cheat. What is your objection here?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2013 09:50 PM |
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My point is that if you're tempted to cheat, you can choose not to - and if cheating would give your spouse an upper hand in the divorce process, that's even more of a reason not to cheat. Get a divorce. Better yet, don't promise not to cheat, then cheat.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2013 10:03 PM |
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In such matters, I'd be very hesitant to judge.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2013 10:19 PM |
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To have some actual quotes ITT -
"A bet is a tax on bull****." - Alex Tabarrok
"If you think something's supposed to hurt, you're less likely to notice if you're doing it wrong." - Paul Graham
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2013 10:44 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:45, 18 Nov 2013.
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The fact is, gentlemen, it seems there must really exist something that is dearer to almost every man than his greatest advantages, or (not to be illogical) there is a most advantageous advantage (the very one omitted of which we spoke just now) which is more important and more advantageous than all other advantages, for the sake of which a man if necessary is ready to act in opposition to all laws; that is, in opposition to reason, honour, peace, prosperity -- in fact, in opposition to all those excellent and useful things if only he can attain that fundamental, most advantageous advantage which is dearer to him than all. "Yes, but it's advantage all the same," you will retort. But excuse me, I'll make the point clear, and it is not a case of playing upon words. What matters is, that this advantage is remarkable from the very fact that it breaks down all our classifications, and continually shatters every system constructed by lovers of mankind for the benefit of mankind. In fact, it upsets everything...
One's own free unfettered choice, one's own caprice, however wild it may be, one's own fancy worked up at times to frenzy -- is that very "most advantageous advantage" which we have overlooked, which comes under no classification and against which all systems and theories are continually being shattered to atoms. And how do these wiseacres know that man wants a normal, a virtuous choice? What has made them conceive that man must want a rationally advantageous choice? What man wants is simply independent choice, whatever that independence may cost and wherever it may lead. And choice, of course, the devil only knows what choice.
Of course, this very stupid thing, this caprice of ours, may be in reality, gentlemen, more advantageous for us than anything else on earth, especially in certain cases… for in any circumstances it preserves for us what is most precious and most important -- that is, our personality, our individuality. Some, you see, maintain that this really is the most precious thing for mankind; choice can, of course, if it chooses, be in agreement with reason… It is profitable and sometimes even praiseworthy. But very often, and even most often, choice is utterly and stubbornly opposed to reason ... and ... and ... do you know that that, too, is profitable, sometimes even praiseworthy?
I believe in it, I answer for it, for the whole work of man really seems to consist in nothing but proving to himself every minute that he is a man and not a piano-key! …And this being so, can one help being tempted to rejoice that it has not yet come off, and that desire still depends on something we don't know?
You will scream at me (that is, if you condescend to do so) that no one is touching my free will, that all they are concerned with is that my will should of itself, of its own free will, coincide with my own normal interests, with the laws of nature and arithmetic. Good heavens, gentlemen, what sort of free will is left when we come to tabulation and arithmetic, when it will all be a case of twice two make four? Twice two makes four without my will. As if free will meant that!”
Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Notes from Underground
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2013 12:17 AM |
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"What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it."
- Eugene Gendlin
"If the rules of rationality are social customs, then it may seem to excuse behavior X if you point out that others are doing the same thing. It wouldn't be fair to demand evidence from you, if we can't provide it ourselves. We will realize that none of us are better than the rest, and we will relent and mercifully excuse you from your social obligation to provide evidence for your belief. And we'll all live happily ever afterward in liberty, fraternity, and equality.
If the rules of rationality are mathematical laws, then trying to justify evidence-free belief by pointing to someone else doing the same thing, will be around as effective as listing 30 reasons why you shouldn't fall off a cliff. Even if we all vote that it's unfair for your refrigerator to need electricity, it still won't run (with probability 1)... Lady Nature is famously indifferent to such pleading, and so is Lady Math...
[D]on't think you can get away with claiming that it's okay to have arbitrary beliefs about XYZ, because other people have arbitrary beliefs too. If two parties to a contract both behave equally poorly, a human judge may decide to impose penalties on neither. But if two engineers design their engines equally poorly, neither engine will work. One design error cannot excuse another. Even if I'm doing XYZ wrong, it doesn't help you, or exempt you from the rules; it just means we're both screwed.
As a matter of human law in liberal democracies, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. As a matter of Nature's law, you are not entitled to accuracy. We don't arrest people for believing weird things, at least not in the wiser countries. But no one can revoke the law that you need evidence to generate accurate beliefs. Not even a vote of the whole human species can obtain mercy in the court of Nature.
Physicists don't decide the laws of physics, they just guess what they are. Rationalists don't decide the laws of rationality, we just guess what they are. You cannot 'rationalize' anything that is not rational to begin with. If by dint of extraordinary persuasiveness you convince all the physicists in the world that you are exempt from the law of gravity, and you walk off a cliff, you'll fall." - Eliezer Yudkowsky
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Eccentric Opinion
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idontcare
Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2013 12:29 AM |
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@mvassilev: the short version would be:
'Billions of flies can't be wrong, go eat sxxx'
(which is a counterarguement to the allread arguement of the collective)
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 19, 2013 12:41 AM |
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When the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological is too large the scientific method in most cases fails. One need only think of the weather, in which case the prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible.
Albert Einstein
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2013 02:03 AM |
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"[T]he deeper failure is supposing that an answer can be mysterious. If a phenomenon feels mysterious, that is a fact about our state of knowledge, not a fact about the phenomenon itself. The vitalists saw a mysterious gap in their knowledge, and postulated a mysterious stuff that plugged the gap. In doing so, they mixed up the map with the territory. All confusion and bewilderment exist in the mind, not in encapsulated substances.
This is the ultimate and fully general explanation for why, again and again in humanity's history, people are shocked to discover that an incredibly mysterious question has a non-mysterious answer. Mystery is a property of questions, not answers." - Eliezer Yudkowsky
"[T]he relevant question to ask about the 'assumptions' of a theory is not whether they are descriptively 'realistic', for they never are, but whether they are sufficiently good approximations for the purpose in hand. And this question can be answered only by seeing whether the theory works, which means whether it yields sufficiently accurate predictions." - Milton Friedman
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Eccentric Opinion
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idontcare
Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2013 04:44 AM |
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Quote:
...But are all axioms equally good? For example, if people decided to maximize the number of paperclips in the universe, and took that as their axiom, would it be as good of a world as ours is?...
by mvassilev
just, epic.
period
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 19, 2013 08:12 AM |
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Mysterious and unpredictable aren't synonymous. One is about how you look at the universe while the other is about how much you can know.
Artu 
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 19, 2013 02:05 PM |
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"Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding."
Liam Neeson, Batman Begins.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 05, 2013 11:04 PM |
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"[N]othing is inherently mysterious—nothing that actually exists, that is. If I am ignorant about a phenomenon, that is a fact about my state of mind, not a fact about the phenomenon; to worship a phenomenon because it seems so wonderfully mysterious, is to worship your own ignorance; a blank map does not correspond to a blank territory, it is just somewhere we haven't visited yet, etc. etc...
Which is to say that everything—everything that actually exists—is liable to end up in "the dull catalogue of common things", sooner or later.
Your choice is either:
- Decide that things are allowed to be unmagical, knowable, scientifically explicable, in a word, real, and yet still worth caring about;
- Or go about the rest of your life suffering from existential ennui that is unresolvable."
- Eliezer Yudkowsky
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Eccentric Opinion
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2014 06:33 PM |
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"Suck on This."
-Travis Bickle
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Sandman
Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
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posted January 13, 2014 02:39 PM |
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Edited by Sandman at 14:58, 13 Jan 2014.
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"With great power comes great responsibility"
Stan Lee
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 06, 2014 06:28 AM |
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"In a park near my home is a plaque that reads: 'We honor all those who fought for our community.' There is probably a similar plaque near you. I would be more proud to live in a community with a plaque that read: 'We honor those who fought against our community when it was wrong.'" - Robin Hanson
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 06, 2014 07:02 AM |
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But that would also be considered fighting for your community, you're not trying to annihilate it, you're trying to change it. If somebody's hopeless about their society, they go underground or immigrate or isolate themselves, they don't try to improve it.
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This thread is pages long: 
