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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 02, 2012 12:45 PM |
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What is it you don't get, Alci?
I just find the faction to be a bit scizophrenic in it's approach, being a hybrid between Native American (prairie style) and Mesoamerican (jungle style) - which I think is sort of an internal contradiction.
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 02, 2012 01:10 PM |
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@ Australia.. not america..
@ Avonu well if you want to focuse on Gray you should not only say one side of each coin
Elves: you did not mention their love for nature and their formost goal to preserve it.
Human: Pavel and Anton were not fanatics, aswell as Godric. on the other hand Salvatore or Valeska were. Also you should mention the many Demon and Necropolis cults
Mages: Agian. The are not only hungry fo knowladge, but also for power. two many mages have turned to Urgash, to many would like to kill anything that is in their way.
Dwarves: well.. nothing to add here. They love isolation
Naga: You forgot to mention the tradition of killing your suppirior lord. A very popular tradition in the lotus empire
Dark Elves: Again Demon cults are popular in many of their clans.
Necropolis: They are not only the Spiritual guids, as they are depicted in Heroes VI and ToE, Markal was pure power hungry evil, Ludmila or Geovany aswell. And Sandro does not look like a life loving persone aswell
Orcs: You forgat that
1: They raid the epire because they hate humans and want loot
2: They Raid everyone because they love war.
3: They have a very deep tradition of power based autocratic leadership.
Also, the best way to show how each faction thinks about the other will be when the Ashan book comes out. There you will see the "political oposits of each faction"
For example the Dwarves:
They hate only Dark elves
They care little about, Undead, Mages, Naga or Orcs
They have a neutral feeling for Elves and Humans.
So we have
Good vs Evil sysstem of oposits
D&D Align system of oposits
Elemental system of oposits
Political system of oposits
How many more can there be?
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What is it you don't get, Alci?
I just find the faction to be a bit scizophrenic in it's approach, being a hybrid between Native American (prairie style) and Mesoamerican (jungle style) - which I think is sort of an internal contradiction.
And this does not bug you with sanctuary that combines Japanees and Indic features?
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 02, 2012 01:12 PM |
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H6 stronghold has a number of Maori touches if you were wondering. The tattoos and some of the names' origins can be traced there.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 02, 2012 01:13 PM |
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Avonu, are you even aware how the D&D allignment system works? Because you create the impression that you do not and I would suggest you read up on the basics. Plus you lay too much emphasis on the political actions of a few powerfull individuals. You put to much emphasis on the darkness of their shades of grey.
But I will quote some of the even more basic divisions and I will explain why I think the factions of Ashan fit them. They don't fit perfectly, but they stil fit very snugly.
Law <> Chaos:
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Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to follow rules nor a compulsion to rebel. They are honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others if it suits him/her.
Good <> Evil:
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Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
If you read above Haven is, in it's essence, Good and Lawfull, but at the same time display all the negatives of strict adherence to Lawfullness. Which is why Haven chars so often have to choose between doing the Good thing or following the Law, when those two conflict.
Sylvan, on the other hand are far more chaotically inclined. They are, of the good factions since their evironmentalism leaves little doubt of that to me, flexible and adaptable. However at the same time the Elves have a great resentment towards technology and overly structured lives. And the transition, if you've read their timeline carefully, was not that smooth a transition as you imply.
Sanctuary is another faction that is Good, but they are not as rigidly structured as Haven is, nor as resentfull of such structure as Sylvan. They fit snugly in the middle of Haven and Sylvan as neither very Lawfull nor very chaotic.
I view Academy as True Neutral as they are Amoral, not Immoral note the difference. They pursue knowledge for it's own sake, they strive to understand and harness. And they are rarely bothered by the morality or immorality of their actions and see beliefs as good, evil, lawfullness or chaos as prejudices.
Fortress is lawfull neutral because the Dwarves exhibit many traits of lawfullness, stubbornness, conservatism and traditionalism. Dwarves are not evil, but their self-servingness and isolastionism does not make them good either.
This is the point where the fit is still greater and I can start quoting directly, by only changing characters into factions.
Stronghold is neutral and chaotic. Orcs are anarchistic in that their only rule is the rule of the strong. And Orcs are neither good nor evil, just violent. And a direct quote here: A character faction of this alignment is an individualist who follows his or her own heart, and generally shirks rules and traditions. Although they promote the ideals of freedom, it is their own freedom that comes first. Good and Evil come second to their need to be free, and the only reliable thing about them is how totally unreliable they are.
Necropolis is, as Haven, Extremely lawfull, but in their conviction to (un)death as the most perfect state of being gives them a total disregard to life. Direct Quote: Characters Factions of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor.
Dungeon is neither lawfull nor chaotic, but without a doubt neither good nor neutral. Direct Quote: Characters Factions of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. They abide by laws for only as long as it is convenient for them.
Lastly, Infernor is without a doubt both Chaotic in the extreme and Evil. Direct Quote: Characters Factions of this alignment tend to have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires, which are typically selfish and cruel. They set a high value on personal freedom, but do not have any regard for the lives or freedom of other people. They do not work well in groups, as they resent being given orders, and usually behave themselves only out of fear of punishment.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 02, 2012 09:39 PM |
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What is it you don't get, Alci?
I just find the faction to be a bit scizophrenic in it's approach, being a hybrid between Native American (prairie style) and Mesoamerican (jungle style) - which I think is sort of an internal contradiction.
And this does not bug you with sanctuary that combines Japanees and Indic features?
No, not really. It's not the fact that they combine different cultural styles that bothers me, problem is that a prairie culture and a jungle culture sort of are exact opposites of each other, so combining them into one seems very ... weird.
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What will happen now?
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted August 03, 2012 03:50 AM |
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And this does not bug you with sanctuary that combines Japanees and Indic features?
No, not really. It's not the fact that they combine different cultural styles that bothers me, problem is that a prairie culture and a jungle culture sort of are exact opposites of each other, so combining them into one seems very ... weird.
Well that, and "combining" Buddhist Mythology with Japanese Mythology isn't much of a stretch when nearly 3/4 of Japanese people self-report as Buddhists.
Indic mythology got wholesale absorbed into Japanese mythology quite a long time ago. That's the whole Journey to the West thing. It's kind of a big deal in Japan, you may have heard of it. In fact, I'm sure you have.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 03, 2012 11:42 AM |
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@ Alcibiades:
You do of course realise that Native American Indians lived on other places than just the prairies. And strictly speaking Aztecs are Native Americans as well.
And I do admit that the mohawk makes the Centaurs look less Aztec then the rest of the Orcs, but then again the Mohawk people and the Iroqouis in general lived in the heavily forrested areas of the North-West of America and Canada.
And might I ask what exactly, for you, indicates towards prairie culture?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 03, 2012 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Miru at 01:06, 05 Aug 2012.
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Haven is not good - with witchhunt (sorry, demon cultists hunt  ), rasism (Orcs) and fanatic religion (Anton and Pavel are just examples of many more knights like them in Holy Empire) they never will be anything like paladins (example of holy knight in Middle Ages - not what we kno from games by now  )
Au Contraire, they are exactly like paladins from the Middle Ages.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted August 04, 2012 05:39 PM |
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Would have been cool to have Stronghold more like the Orcs from Lord of the Rings, more dark and evil.....when Sarumon helped make the new orc breed Uruq'hai kind of reminds me of the Wizards creating the orcs in 330 YSD in Ashan!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 04, 2012 05:47 PM |
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No thanks.
I like the Orcs the way they are now. But pillaging the Silver Cities with them as an act of vengeance would be pretty sweet. 
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 04, 2012 08:23 PM |
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As much as I love academy.. Yesss.. I would totally love to see this happen 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 04, 2012 09:23 PM |
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Yeah, me too.
And seeing how Kunyak's grave is on Academy territory, they have plenty reason to go there. We all know what happens if you stand in the way of an Orc's goal. They did so in TotE, they can do it again.
Then again, a simple punitive expedition is reason enough in my book and likely in most Orcs' as well.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 05, 2012 12:25 AM |
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Wow.. So much Orc fandom going on here. Happy to see it. But really. We have the brutes in 4 out of 6 games. The first DLC for Heroes VI was dedicated to them, The second expansion for Heroes V aswell and we had a two map minicampaigne in that game too. Should not a different faction get some potlight.. like the nice and mary nordic fellas??
Just asking :-P
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 05, 2012 12:43 AM |
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I want an Inferno campaign which ends up with a group of them breaking out of Sheogh and forming a nation of their own on the surface of Ashan. They would be indepedant of Urgash's chaotic influence. But it wouldn't make them "good guys".
Also, a Haven campaign where they aren't crazy zealots. Aaaaaand a Necropolis campaign where you get to be evil, like in H3!
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted August 05, 2012 03:18 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 05 Aug 2012. |
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I want an Inferno campaign which ends up with a group of them breaking out of Sheogh and forming a nation of their own on the surface of Ashan. They would be indepedant of Urgash's chaotic influence. But it wouldn't make them "good guys".
Also, a Haven campaign where they aren't crazy zealots. Aaaaaand a Necropolis campaign where you get to be evil, like in H3!
coughMarkalcough
So you want to see how demons turn out when they lose their current ultime goal in life : excaping prison? What then? That is an interesting question.
Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions. So does the human fanaticism I believe. That's when they started getting more at ease with playing with the pieces they had set in place. I think for both of those they want to break the usual image to make it more complex, although they are starting to go a little overboard with Haven. Not with necros though, just look at the attitude of the necro you fight in the Sanctuary campaign. Admirable goal, but the methods leave a lot to be desired...
In other news : sprint in the final stretch of the townscreen showcases : the last 2 are out : Haven and Necropolis!
And to complete the circle I was talking about earlier : it goes as follows : Inferno-->Sanctuary-->Stronghold-->Haven-->Necropolis-->Inferno
Stronghold-->Haven is based mostly on 2 things. First off, humans are absolutists, for the most part. Light, purity, are the themes here. What of the orcs? Ambivalence. They are basteards, for starters. Half-humans half-demons. For fanatics of purity relations don't start off well. Second, the orcs are (to my knowledge) the only faction with not one, but two gods! Take that absolutists! So yeah, absolutism vs ambivalence.
Second is actually mostly geographical. If you look at a map, the imperial area is easy to find : it's the giant area in the middle of Ashan. Where are the orcs? Now, this is not only geographical, because it affects each of the factions. The Empire is established and thriving. THe orcs have a hard time claiming a place to be their own. They took some isles off naga hands. They have small enclaves in the Empire. For a while they had no place at all. Reminiscent of present day native americans which are, in fact, their inspiration art-wise. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here, because I'm having the hardest time putting it in a simple 1-2 word(s). It just sets them apart soo much.
Haven-->Necropolis is probably the least solid. They are both about healing (strategy wise), except that one is all about life, the other about death. You could argue that any faction can have the life/death oppositionand you'd be right. But the human faction always felt the most Life-related. It was even its name in H4. Maybe that's just me.
Secondly, there's the light/shadow theme. Technically necro is not the master of shadow (that'd be dungeon), but (contrary to all y'all apparently) I don't play with the factions that aren't in the game. And necro is the closest thing. Not to mention they're the masters of dark magic, and not dungeon. So dark vs light, if you prefer. It still works.
Necropolis-->Inferno is already somewhat explained by Elvin earlier in the thread. 2 details I'll add to it : the necros seem to consider themselves guardians of a certain cycle of life and death. A giant pattern governing a certain aspect of life? That'd be something the demons would rebel against. They are all about absolute freedom. If the necros are guardians of such a cycle, demons are probably its biggest ennemy. Second detail, I'll go to vampires. As I understand them, they become what they are out of fascination for the immobility. Eternal, everlasting beauty. They love that. Or in other words : status quo. And now you can see me coming a mile away : demons would totally fight eternal status quo. It's just counter-nature to them.
Funny how the 2 "evil" factions would easily be at odds with one another.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 05, 2012 09:06 AM |
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Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions
Gauldoth Half-dead and the H4 "death" campaign was executed better, methinks.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 05, 2012 11:56 AM |
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Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions
Gauldoth Half-dead and the H4 "death" campaign was executed better, methinks.
Up until the whole infernopolis part.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted August 08, 2012 09:04 PM |
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Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions
Gauldoth Half-dead and the H4 "death" campaign was executed better, methinks.
Up until the whole infernopolis part.
I believe that was explained in the campaign's story, but I can't be the only person who wanted to see the demons and the warlocks team up, mostly for the choice of black dragons or devils.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted August 08, 2012 10:07 PM |
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Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions
Gauldoth Half-dead and the H4 "death" campaign was executed better, methinks.
Yes. Yes it was. *Pets the beautiful H4 campaigns*
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted August 09, 2012 12:53 AM |
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Undead not being completely evil only dates back to the H5 expansions
Gauldoth Half-dead and the H4 "death" campaign was executed better, methinks.
Yes. Yes it was. *Pets the beautiful H4 campaigns*
Beautiful they were, but they were made funny by the fact that most of the time you didn't have to use an army at all. Heroes can do all the job once they're levelled up a lot.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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