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| Thread: Corporations.... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 21, 2012 03:04 AM |
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The corporations you pointed out were mostly pioneers in that branches, so... not really the best examples.
Why not? That's the whole point of the examples!
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Example: Who's going to end Google's dominance on search engines? nobody.
Yeah, well, people probably thought nobody would ever eclipse Rome, either, but look what happened. Big companies fail all the time. AT&T once ruled the communications industry. They were broken up by gov't. Standard Oil? What happened to them? Ford and GM once ruled the auto industry - what is their share of the market now? Blockbuster? The king of movie rental industry with a franchise on every street corner. Failure to keep up with emerging technology put them into bankruptcy last year - ten years ago nobody would have ever thought it possible. Borders, Circuit City... other enormous US Coporations that no longer exist. IBM? They practically invented the personal computer, an industry they're barely in any more.
History is too full of examples of corporations that have waxed and waned to believe that Google will be any different.
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del_diablo
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posted August 21, 2012 10:33 AM |
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The problem Doomforge wanted to point out is that the core reasons entrepeuaurs fail at entering the marked is usually "Not enough liquid cash". Its not about having a good idea, or doing it well, you still need to have a lot of money to even enter the marked, meaning its always a slow marked.
And Google and IBM is short of bad examples of "could go down", for the longest of time, IBM spent so much in R&D that whenever a challange appaeared, they had the tech nobody else had. IBM also never declined until the policy was changed to avoid spending R&D.
As for Google, as pointed out, unless there is some really rich person investing in a rival, they won't really go down. They are currently Omniexpanding, meaning that regardless of what happens in the marked, they can't go down unless its their own stupidity.
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Doomforge
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posted August 21, 2012 10:39 AM |
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Why not? That's the whole point of the examples!
I guess this point actually fuels up my argument rather than yours 
Since I specifically pointed out that corporations get born in new environments only... thanks for agreeing
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Yeah, well, people probably thought nobody would ever eclipse Rome, either, but look what happened.
Well, by "free market" standards, Rome would never fell, so that's a bad example too
As for your other examples:
AT&T - as said, broken down by government - that has nothing to do with free market, and belongs to socialism by default, so it doesn't belong here Besides, it's still the biggest communications group in America, no? All phones I see imported from US have AT&T simlock.
Standard Oil? - Not sure, don't know much.
Ford and ESPECIALLY GM - terrible examples, GM became the world's biggest and most profitable car company again two years after their bankruptcy.
Blackbuster - it seems its their own stupidity that killed them, then. That can happen, true. But it's not exactly "free market", eh? Should they change their strategy, perhaps they would still be big. One thing to note however - of course corporations based on something that goes obsolete can/will fell, but what does it have to do with corporations absolutely dominating the branch? I'd rather say the whole BRANCH died, not the corporation, since nobody rents movies anymore. 
Don't know much about the next two
IBM - the world's biggest computer science corporation in the world with 16.7 billion $ of worth on the market, you call that crap?
Probably we have a different vision of success. For me it's not exactly staying on top - it's getting high and staying there, not necessarily in top three or top five .
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xerox
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posted August 22, 2012 12:03 AM |
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I don't have a problem with big, successful corporations. Those corporations got big for a reason. That reason being that a lot of people like, purchase and use their services and products.
Of course, they should have a major influence on politics and I really don't like the lobbiying in the US.
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- John Stuart Mill
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Doomforge
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posted August 22, 2012 12:24 AM |
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I don't have a problem with big, successful corporations. Those corporations got big for a reason. That reason being that a lot of people like, purchase and use their services and products.
And the effect is corporatism. Which sucks.
What was the point of capitalism? Multiplying wealth for yourself?
Well, in corporatism, you multiply wealth for corporations instead. And there's no way of preventing this, too.
Capitalism is just a larval state for Corporatism.
Too bad there's no alternative right now since Socialism sucks more than Corporatism, at least the current one (future corporatism may be worse depending on how powerful will they get).
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xerox
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posted August 22, 2012 12:43 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:45, 22 Aug 2012.
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So do big corporations stop paying taxes?
If they're making more money, then they are also paying more in taxes. But if this is a big issue, then how to fix it? Are you just going to tell successful corporations to stop expand?
The focus should be that big corporations can't cheat and abuse the tax systems. After all, one of the main points of having a private sector is that you get tax income from it.
Socialism and capitalism can and does co-exist. It was capitalism and free trade that made the world rich but I still appreciate many of the socialist values that my country is built on and functions of.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
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posted August 22, 2012 12:46 AM |
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Xerox:
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Those corporations got big for a reason. That reason being that a lot of people like, purchase and use their services and products.
Unfortunately, that isn't the only reason. Governments create barriers to entry into the market that make it difficult for individuals and small businesses to compete against already established corporations. See licensing laws, permits, patents, etc.
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xerox
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posted August 22, 2012 12:50 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:52, 22 Aug 2012.
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Governments create barriers to entry into the market that make it difficult for individuals and small businesses to compete against already established corporations.
Any example where that's a major problem?
If the patent stuff prevents us from getting tooooooons of like bad Adidas and Rolex CLONES that just drain the quality out of the market, then I am fine with such regulations.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted August 22, 2012 01:37 AM |
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Quote:
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Governments create barriers to entry into the market that make it difficult for individuals and small businesses to compete against already established corporations.
Any example where that's a major problem?
If the patent stuff prevents us from getting tooooooons of like bad Adidas and Rolex CLONES that just drain the quality out of the market, then I am fine with such regulations.
1. With Adidas or Rolex you're paying for the brand name and not all that much for the quality...
2. Its pretty much, pick any industry and I'll show you the barriers, example - Airline industry -
You wanna start a new company, one of your flights will be to NY (USA), you need USA gov' to give you a license so you can actually land at JFK (for example) and then you need a contract with JFK so they will supply you with a free runway for when your flight arrives, however a giant like Delta airlines already has a contract with JFK, JFK cant supply limitless number of runways to everyone so your new company doesnt get a contract with JFK (they kinda rather stick with a big company)... How can you compete with them now ?
PC industry - almost every pc in the world is using intel's chip and microsoft's OS, those two have a partnership, "Wintel",
result = they dominate the market, barriers to entry are up up in the sky high... and I could go on but you get the idea 
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Doomforge
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posted August 22, 2012 07:52 AM |
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Also, try selling an MP3 player in US and tell them it's better then ipod (which isn't that hard since ipods are worse than iriver or iaudio products in both sound quality and price).
Heck, they even CALL mp3 players "ipods"
Well, it's APPLE, can't go wrong.
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master_learn
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posted August 22, 2012 09:03 AM |
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Banks as corporations
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The focus should be that big corporations can't cheat and abuse the tax systems.
Haven't it occured to you that its one major thing corporations do
Let me explain-a bank is a corporation.
So when the big corporations(or banks) in America were near broke(should I give names)the big ones wanted the government to pay their debts(which rezulted from their greed,ignorance,awful management} with money from the taxes every american pays.
That thing if I am not mistaken happened in Europe too.
So the governments give our money to corporations who are treating us the worst ways possible,fire us,ignore us as citizens and its only becoming worse and worse.
Corporations abuse not only the tax system,but as many systems they like to abuse-it is called "too big to broke".
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Fauch
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posted August 22, 2012 10:41 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 10:47, 22 Aug 2012.
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So do big corporations stop paying taxes?
it seems that the biggest they are, the less taxes they pay in percentage.
moreover, if they are big enough, they can put their money in a place where the law is to their advantage. (tax havens)
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The focus should be that big corporations can't cheat and abuse the tax systems.
yeah, but they can and they do it. but they also seem to beneficy from the complicity of governments.
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Let me explain-a bank is a corporation.
So when the big corporations(or banks) in America were near broke(should I give names)the big ones wanted the government to pay their debts(which rezulted from their greed,ignorance,awful management} with money from the taxes every american pays.
That thing if I am not mistaken happened in Europe too.
So the governments give our money to corporations who are treating us the worst ways possible,fire us,ignore us as citizens and its only becoming worse and worse.
If I am not mistaken, they didn't take from the citizens in the 1st place in Europe. some banks were in debts because they took massive risks to make more money, they said they needed to be helped or the system would collapse. the government borrowed from private banks at high interest rate (the traité de lisbonne says that they can't borrow from their own national bank at a low interest rate) to give to those banks which were in debts, and now, citizens have to pay what was borrowed.
note that the debt began to grow crazy way before that. and that's because the governments are forced to borrow from private banks they do not control instead of their own national bank (since 1973 in france)
to me it seems clear there is quite a conspiration of the elites against the mass of the rest of people. it is quite clear that they want to weaken the average citizen. because of the crisis, we are asked to sacrify ourselves for the common good, while big corporations become richer than ever and benefit from more protection and gifts than they ever did.
this is from deus ex, can someone confirm that? :
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Leo Gold: "Don’t believe me? It’s all in the numbers. For a hundred years, there’s been a conspiracy of plutocrats against ordinary people."
JC Denton: "Do you have a single fact to back that up?"
Leo Gold: "Number one: In 1945, corporations paid 50 percent of federal taxes. Now they pay about 5 percent. Number two: in 1900, 90 percent of Americans were self-employed; now it’s about two percent."
JC Denton: "So?"
Leo Gold: "It’s called consolidation. Strengthen governments and corporations, weaken individuals. With taxes, this can be done imperceptibly over time."
here the "now" would be the year 2052, so it's likely that numbers are a bit different now?
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del_diablo
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posted August 22, 2012 02:13 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Governments create barriers to entry into the market that make it difficult for individuals and small businesses to compete against already established corporations.
Any example where that's a major problem?
If the patent stuff prevents us from getting tooooooons of like bad Adidas and Rolex CLONES that just drain the quality out of the market, then I am fine with such regulations.
I can think of examples. Intel and the x86 marked is such a case. Because there is 2 entire barriers of entry:
-Manifactuer capability and tech
-To aquire enough licenses to actually compete, so you have compitable stuff
Do you know why there is only 2 competitors on the marked for the mainstream desktop? The first reason is that everyone else sort of gave up, but the second reason is ironically patents and licenses. At the start, there was more than 4 competitors in the x86 marked. As time went on, they where roughly equal. At some point Intel introduced a ne set of instructions, bribed a few core apps to start using it, and bang, it roughly locked out the rest of the marked.
AMD had enough tech to agree with a cross licensing, VIA partially gave up and and did setup a cross licensing, IBM went out of that marked long before that.
As for why VIA did give up, that is a story of monopoly abuse.
I can also think of the relationship between obligatory licensed techologies and the FLOSS community. For instance... did you know that Videolan, the "group" behind VLC is located in France? By doing so, they can implent roughly any codecs related to video, decode blueray, decode DVD, and even implent the latest video codecs.
This enables consumers to get around corporations using licenses and patents to blackmail the rest of the marked into submission. This also enables normal desktop users to watch the videos they want to watch, regardless of the fact they would in most cases be forced to buy something to decode it in the first place.
The same can't be said for things like graphic drivers where the group is legally based on USA, where there several tons of patents prevert marked entry.
There is also a reason all new marked competitors enter niche marked like ARM: Its not patent hurdled, yet. They also limit themselves to ancient OpenGL versions for the hardware because never versions are sort of patent encumbered.
So its not as simpe as patents creating a barrier of entry that only allow serious corporations. For the most, patents are used to block out corporations. Horror examples of this include for instance Monsanto, which also uses their own set of money to further make it harder to compete against them.
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xerox
Promising
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posted August 22, 2012 09:12 PM |
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You wanna start a new company, one of your flights will be to NY (USA), you need USA gov' to give you a license so you can actually land at JFK (for example) and then you need a contract with JFK so they will supply you with a free runway for when your flight arrives, however a giant like Delta airlines already has a contract with JFK, JFK cant supply limitless number of runways to everyone so your new company doesnt get a contract with JFK (they kinda rather stick with a big company)... How can you compete with them now ?
PC industry - almost every pc in the world is using intel's chip and microsoft's OS, those two have a partnership, "Wintel",
result = they dominate the market, barriers to entry are up up in the sky high... and I could go on but you get the idea
There's lots of different airlines but of course, JFK can't just let anyone land in their airports. There has to be a demand for it.
PC industry: What prevents people from creating new OS:es and chips?
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yeah, but they can and they do it. but they also seem to beneficy from the complicity of governments.
And that's the problem. Big corporations should not have an easy time escaping taxes. I also agree with that the bank system is retarded. Why must we citizens pay for their fails?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Doomforge
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posted August 22, 2012 09:23 PM |
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PC industry: What prevents people from creating new OS:es and chips?
The kind of technology needed to produce 28nm Ivy bridge is... out of people's reach. Except when you're a wealthy corporation
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Fauch
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posted August 22, 2012 09:40 PM |
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I also agree with that the bank system is retarded. Why must we citizens pay for their fails?
the answer is simple. they want the money to be in bankers' pockets rather than in our pockets.
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Elodin
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posted August 22, 2012 09:51 PM |
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The US has the highest corporate taxes in the world.
Clicky
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United States-based companies and hardworking Americans face a steadily growing problem, one oddly self-imposed by Uncle Sam. Our current tax system puts businesses and workers at a competitive disadvantage in the global market and discourages companies from investing in operations here at home.
On Sunday, April 1, Japan lowered its corporate tax rate, leaving the United States with the highest effective rate among developed countries: 39.2 percent.
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Doomforge
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posted August 22, 2012 10:03 PM |
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39.2%... and I, as individual, pay around 60% of what I earn in form of taxes
yeah, "terrible"...
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del_diablo
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posted August 22, 2012 11:42 PM |
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39.2% tax is the highest in the world? What sort of statistical bending is used to get this "real"? Are we ignoring corp to person transfers or something?
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master_learn
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posted September 04, 2012 08:57 AM |
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Is two pages everything we can say about corporations?
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