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| Thread: Any hope for H6 to get better? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2012 12:05 PM |
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So... I guess the skill system will remain like it is  . I go resume my DotA2 playing.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 05, 2012 12:18 PM |
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Have fun, for it will be a snowy day in Hell, when the pig fly high and blot out the sun, when Heroes fans aren't divided into two or more camps.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted September 05, 2012 12:27 PM |
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Well, there was a pretty big consensus on the Town Screen issue... but yes, that's generally true.
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Friend-shaped
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 05, 2012 12:33 PM |
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Quote:
Well, there was a pretty big consensus on the Town Screen issue... but yes, that's generally true.
Well, the thing there was that fans were devided into the Camp of "In favor of Townscreens" and the Camp "We don't care either way". If you want to view that as consensus, be my guest.
I do not remember there being anyone against them at the time. Because that is usually a third camp.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted September 05, 2012 12:45 PM |
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The 'We don't care either way' group didn't care either way, so technically it didn't oppose the other camp. Thus, a consensus was reached in my book. 
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Friend-shaped
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 05:14 PM |
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Edited by krs at 17:15, 06 Sep 2012.
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Since the game/development is in the state it is... why not release the mod tools?
Imho better to have unfinished ones than not at all. Or at least come clear and say from the beginning: "no modding for this one" so people know and refrain from buying it.
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted September 06, 2012 05:54 PM |
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@krs : because the developement for Heroes VI won't stop after Danse Macabre ..maybe when the game will be in its final stage they will release the mod tools
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 09:19 PM |
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Maybe I am off with this. But I consider mods seem to be a core component in a game. Whole genders sprouted from mods.
From top of my head: WoW and the like, DotA and the like, Counter Strike and the like, Tower Defence games. Wake of Gods!!! Even Heroes V!
Mods and Maps made H3 so great. Even Heroes 5 had some decent mods, despite its 3D and problems. Their map guy is a community mapper.
So who in his right mind oversees stuff like Map Editor, Mod Support, Multi-player, Battle Replays? What else keeps a game alive? Are DLC's for this game in such a great demand? Who buys DLC's for this game?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 09:35 PM |
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In online gaming, "working with what you got by random" usually means "lose if you happen to miss a crucial skill". Which is not fun.
On the other hand, realistic implementation of a choice-based system is usually "everybody picks the same exact skills/spells in a particular order, because that's what works best". Which is boring as hell.
hard to say which one of those is better. I'd risk saying that the random one has a certain appeal to single-player crowd, while the choice-based one is more of an appeal to online players. After all, nobody likes to lose because of a RNG generator that gave you a wrong skill or spell.
Ultimately, it's all about balance. If the skills are well balanced and are equal in worth, both systems can work. If the skills are implemented like in H5 or H6, both systems suck.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 09:44 PM |
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You don't lose because the RNG didn't give you the right or gave you the wrong skill.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 06, 2012 09:51 PM |
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A RNG gave you four skills to chose from, and if you have the misfortune to receive four worthless skills then all you really have to do is pick the most useful of those skills and either modify your strategy or wait for your next level up for a skill you can use, which can either be likely or not since the RNG is actually weighted to give you certain skills much more often.
Personally I like that better than the H6 method, since I have never had an exact copy of a hero that I had made before. (Ex: Dungeon I was offered light, defense, sorcery and luck repeatedly, so I took these skills and built a strategy around them that worked surprisingly well. Then again, it might have helped that I was able to claim a neutral Haven town and get divine vengeance, but still.  ) The H6 style does make cookie cut-out heroes, since there are obviously superior skills that will always help you. I find the repetition just a bit monotonous.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 10:29 PM |
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Quote:
You don't lose because the RNG didn't give you the right or gave you the wrong skill.
Oh yes you do. Forgot H5 already? 
RNG won and lost many games via magic guild.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 11:03 PM |
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No. You lost because opponent made less wrong decisions than you. Or you made more - depending on how you see it.
With your decisions when picking skills/abilities you follow one specific road with a lot of possibilities to turn left or right.
If you lose follwoing a specific way, you followed a wrong turn somewhere. It may have been a percenage play, but that doesn't mean you have a right to wwin: Opponent may follow a percentage play with better chances to succed - and that would mean he deserved the win.
So, no, you didn't lose because of the RNG.
Also it would mean that if you won, you'd have won because of the RNG as well, which would automatically lead to the question why you play the game at all.
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chrambo
Hired Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 11:05 PM |
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But couldn't the "free-choice" system be made better? For example, limit the number of skill choices per school. This was done in heroes V, and I think it worked well. You had to choose if you wanted one skill or the other (think of where you had to get a crappy pre-req for a nice skill later on). But then also increase the dependancies (i.e. you need three skills in fire magic + three passive magic bonuses (fire magic I-III) to get the third tear abilities). This would force the player to make choices.
As it is, you could theoretically level up until level 15 without spending a single point and then grab every third tier ability available to your class. That is stupid. As it is, I believe that the ability system is not inherently flawed, just lazily implemented. They took what could be a good idea and did a half-baked job that really sucked a lot of fun out of the game.
What I would like to know is why this is not becoming priority #1? Is this not *Heroes* of Might and Magic? Is the key component not your *hero*? Yes, there are a lot of nice features that could be added to increase replayability (RMG is a big one), but they are meaningless unless you are forced to make choices in developing your hero. In my opinion, this was what made the previous games enjoyable.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 06, 2012 11:12 PM |
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Quote:
In online gaming, "working with what you got by random" usually means "lose if you happen to miss a crucial skill". Which is not fun.
On the other hand, realistic implementation of a choice-based system is usually "everybody picks the same exact skills/spells in a particular order, because that's what works best". Which is boring as hell.
hard to say which one of those is better. I'd risk saying that the random one has a certain appeal to single-player crowd, while the choice-based one is more of an appeal to online players. After all, nobody likes to lose because of a RNG generator that gave you a wrong skill or spell.
Ultimately, it's all about balance. If the skills are well balanced and are equal in worth, both systems can work. If the skills are implemented like in H5 or H6, both systems suck.
I think this is a well-balanced post that captures the points of both views, really.
I understand why in multiplayer/competitive communities, losing because you got the wrong skills (and against a human player you will likely loose if you get the wrong skills) would be frustrating - against AI, you could usually win anyway, the rare/fun skills was just the icing on the cake that added variety.
For me, there was a certain excitement in working for a specific build knowing that you might not get it, but there was also a deep frustration in getting offered Mana Burst 10 times straight in a row when all you wanted was to have Secrets Of Destruction to open up for Ignite to have that really sweet sensation of long-burning Fireballs.  That was why I thought random skills but free picking of perks (in a H5 skill context) would probably be the best balance between the two.
Also, people should remember that in Heroes 5, there was not really any bad skills - unlike Heroes 3, where the frequent choice between Eagle Eye and Scholar has caused quite a number of rage-quits on my part. All of the skills added something generally useful, and if there was an odd skill that was really bad for you (say, Summoning Magic if you were Knight) it would normally also have a very low chance of coming up.
And like others have said, you could work the skill quite far to improve your chances - maxing out all skills to Expert without selecting any perks in (at least) two of them would basically give you 6 x 2 shots at getting the skill you wanted, which was not really that bad odds unless you were hunting for Light Magic as Demon Lord or Leadership as Wizard*.
* Only once ever did I manage the March Of Golems + Artificel Glory + Aura Of Swiftness build with Razzak and that was after I modded him to start with Logistics but boy did those Golems kick ***.
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What will happen now?
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted September 06, 2012 11:35 PM |
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Quote:
@krs : because the developement for Heroes VI won't stop after Danse Macabre ..maybe when the game will be in its final stage they will release the mod tools
If it goes on at this rate there won't be a final stage of the game in a year at least, so waiting for that seems somehow pointless...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 06, 2012 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
In online gaming, "working with what you got by random" usually means "lose if you happen to miss a crucial skill". Which is not fun.
That's really only a problem in poorly balanced games. Ideally, at least some elements are randomly determined, but each possible outcome has equivalent degree of usefulness.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 06, 2012 11:53 PM |
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Quote:
No. You lost because opponent made less wrong decisions than you.
I don't think you realize the power of certain spells in creeping, and the advantage that this can bring in HoMM5. Once you get the advantage, it's very easy to snowball from there. So let's leave it at that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2012 12:37 AM |
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Quote:
No. You lost because opponent made less wrong decisions than you.
Eh not really. If you miss crucial perk/skill(s) in H5 your odds at winning greatly diminish even if your play is brilliant. And I should know, I have played and watched more combat replays than all of you combined But final battle aside, the crucial part of randomness is on the adventure map and often enough missing a crucial skill early(like warmahines for orcs or enlightenment for dungeon) or got the 'wrong' spell in the guild(divine strength when dark opponent gets slow, or arcane armour instead of phoenix on a rusheable map), or bad stat allocation(like attack instead of spellpower for a warlock, your lvl 15 necromancer stuck with 1 knowledge and no enlightenment offered) your odds at creeping or against another hero really goes down. Even missing logistics in the first 10+ levels can seriously cripple your game and this has nothing to do with combat, yet the rate at which you gain experience and break through the key areas with logistics can prove too much of an advantage for the other to stand a chance.
Mind you a good player can always manipulate the odds and his available choices but really, sometimes you are simply screwed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 01:38 AM |
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Not to mention that the same battle can have entirely different outcomes depending on how RNG assigns the order of actions of your hero/units. Heck, this is probably one the bigger problems of Heroes 5.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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