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| Thread: Any hope for H6 to get better? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted September 07, 2012 03:20 AM |
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Don't bother 'arguing' with JJ. What you had to say has been stated, and anyone reading the thread can see it.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 08:39 AM |
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Quote:
Not to mention that the same battle can have entirely different outcomes depending on how RNG assigns the order of actions of your hero/units. Heck, this is probably the bigger problems of Heroes 5.
While you mention the right thing, you miss the point.
Any claim, "I would have won, if I'd got this or that spell", is complete nonsense - because you simply cannot know that. You may say, if I'd got that spell instead of that, I could have accomplished things way better - but that assumes that everything else would have gone the way it did, EXCEPT with a different spell in the guild.
That, however, is foolish to assume. Opponent may not have gotten the optimal choices either; your mentioned point of assinging starting initiatives at random might have been completely different, you may have had a couple of lucky effects and so on.
So what you ACTUALLY say is, "ALL ELSE BEING THE SAME I'd have won with this or that spell".
In my opinion, with a game like Heroes that is absolutely foolish to say. It's understandable to point at something that could have turned out better, but it's still a foolish thing to do, especially when we talk about 50% chances.
As I said - if you get your spell, and win, you would be FORCED to say, "I ONLY WON BECAUSE I GOT THAT SPELL, since without it I'd lost".
You wouldn't want to play such a game where all depended from getting one spell.
THAT SAID - it is clear that in a game like Heroes 5, if the players's playing strengths are sufficiently near each other the game will be decided by who has the better combination of chance-based stuff: spells, artifact finds (if there are random ones placed), starting initiative and lucky hits in the final battle - in other words: who has more luck. That's in the nature of things.
However, it's also true that players keep something like an inner log while playing, guessing themselves on the good or bad side of luck in the course of the game, and increasing or decreasing risk accordingly (which may lead to further weakening if perceived "behind", because the higher the risk the more likely an unfavorable outcome).
I also think that you have to be EXTREMELY flexible in your building decisions with a game like Heroes 5. This is especially true with the handling of the Mage Guild and the magic skills and abilities. There IS only a 50% chance to get Haste, so it's clear that you will get Divine Strength every 2nd game, which means you will have to accept that as absolutely possible and must be able to handle it.
LASTLY, and that's a very important point: YOU DO NOT PLAY ALONE. You have to give opponent credit for his play. Saying, he won, BUT (he'd lost if I hadn't been unlucky)... is disregarding opponent, because it means, Buddy, you'd be toast if I hadn't been so unlucky. What you do not know, however, is how well the guy played, how much luck or bad luck he had and how many mistakes he and you made in your plays. So saying, ALL THINGS ALIKE, I'd have won with a different spell or skill, if I only got it, is bollocks, because opponent might say just the same: In that case, if you had gotten that spell, I had no lucky hits, even though I have Expert Luck and a Luck artifact, By all rights I should have gotten a few.
Bottom line is, if you lose - you lost. Period.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2012 09:41 AM |
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It's not about 100% victory because I got this or didn't get that while the opponent's performance was a given. It's just that H5 was too much about gaining momentum and if you got too far ahead while your opponent in his misfortune failed to secure the tools to match your pace, he was pretty much in deep waters. Because if you broke through a rich, heavily guarded area one week faster you could gain the momentum to rush and beat him silly.
In principle you are right but H5 was a very biased game when it came to certain things  And I'd still rather have random mage guilds than guaranteed spells through the skill system, I'd just prefer that spells are less situational, more balanced with each other and that there are more than 2 spells per tier with a 50% chance to get either.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 10:16 AM |
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Quote:
Eh not really. If you miss crucial perk/skill(s) in H5 your odds at winning greatly diminish even if your play is brilliant. And I should know, I have played and watched more combat replays than all of you combined  But final battle aside, the crucial part of randomness is on the adventure map and often enough missing a crucial skill early(like warmahines for orcs or enlightenment for dungeon) or got the 'wrong' spell in the guild(divine strength when dark opponent gets slow, or arcane armour instead of phoenix on a rusheable map), or bad stat allocation(like attack instead of spellpower for a warlock, your lvl 15 necromancer stuck with 1 knowledge and no enlightenment offered) your odds at creeping or against another hero really goes down. Even missing logistics in the first 10+ levels can seriously cripple your game and this has nothing to do with combat, yet the rate at which you gain experience and break through the key areas with logistics can prove too much of an advantage for the other to stand a chance.
Mind you a good player can always manipulate the odds and his available choices but really, sometimes you are simply screwed.
Yup you are right but there was much fun in all that unpredictability. It was a good system and it needed only to be adjusted towards a little less randomness.
And you speak from the perspective of an experienced player. Imagine now a mediocre player in Heroes 6. All his games will largely look alike in skill build and spells. This was not the case in H5 especially because of that randomness.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 11:04 AM |
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Quote:
It's not about 100% victory because I got this or didn't get that while the opponent's performance was a given. It's just that H5 was too much about gaining momentum and if you got too far ahead while your opponent in his misfortune failed to secure the tools to match your pace, he was pretty much in deep waters. Because if you broke through a rich, heavily guarded area one week faster you could gain the momentum to rush and beat him silly.
In principle you are right but H5 was a very biased game when it came to certain things And I'd still rather have random mage guilds than guaranteed spells through the skill system, I'd just prefer that spells are less situational, more balanced with each other and that there are more than 2 spells per tier with a 50% chance to get either.
I agree of course that H5 isn't the most balanced game, and some things are indeed a lottery - a lot of things actually, come to think of it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2012 11:58 AM |
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Quote:
Imagine now a mediocre player in Heroes 6. All his games will largely look alike in skill build and spells. This was not the case in H5 especially because of that randomness.
Yes I miss the faction specialized skill trees, they could even work with a point buy system while keeping their diversity of choices. As long as there are counter skills, faction unique or banned skills, more skills tied to the racial(as opposed to just one free skill per class in H6) and keeping the spells out of it, save some specialized cases. It would be fun if necropolis could unlock a unique death spell through dark magic for instance while the common dark spells would appear randomly in the guild. Branching tree paths are just more fun than picking whatever independent ability you want. We miss abilities like warlock's luck, banishment, exorcism, retribution and the like, that were strongly tied to a certain skill or required a synergy of two skills to unlock.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 12:00 PM |
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Quote:
Branching tree paths are just more fun than picking whatever independent ability you want. We miss abilities like warlock's luck, banishment, exorcism, retribution and the like, that were strongly tied to a certain skill or required a synergy of two skills to unlock.
Totally agree... It's the lack of unique abilities that makes the skill "tree" rather dull. And it's not really a tree, it misses branching indeed...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 12:39 PM |
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The worst thing is, that you can see immediately that something is wrong: possible skill picks should fit into ONE window ehen levelling up.
You cannot make a game with the intention of "speeding up play" and then slap players with 11 pages of skills that you may all want to access in case of a level-up.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2012 12:55 PM |
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A full screen like Aurelain's skillwheel would be great 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Quique30
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 04:10 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Imagine now a mediocre player in Heroes 6. All his games will largely look alike in skill build and spells. This was not the case in H5 especially because of that randomness.
Yes I miss the faction specialized skill trees, they could even work with a point buy system while keeping their diversity of choices. As long as there are counter skills, faction unique or banned skills, more skills tied to the racial(as opposed to just one free skill per class in H6) and keeping the spells out of it, save some specialized cases. It would be fun if necropolis could unlock a unique death spell through dark magic for instance while the common dark spells would appear randomly in the guild. Branching tree paths are just more fun than picking whatever independent ability you want. We miss abilities like warlock's luck, banishment, exorcism, retribution and the like, that were strongly tied to a certain skill or required a synergy of two skills to unlock.
When I first knew about the tears/blood path for faction heroes, I thought the flavor/specialization would come from there, instead of the skill tree. And I thought, "OK... that could work". Sadly, it came short of its potential once the game was released.
I still think it is a very interesting mechanism. But they need to add more depth to it, have a bigger impact on the game through the skills and the level choices to make it feel as if you're developing a specialized faction hero. And it needs to be available to secondary heroes, as well. (I don't really know why they imposed this restriction).
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 07, 2012 06:55 PM |
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JJ, this totally isn't a lie: last night I had a dream about you. The two of us were playing chess (don't ask me how possible; I never saw your face) and you made a certain move, after which you declared victory. But the move was illegal, and so I said as much and you yelled, "No, you're missing the point!" and then you picked up the board and threw it at me.
Not even joking!
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 08:48 PM |
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There's probably some weird satisfaction to be garnered out of the fact that people who know me only in a very electronic way dream about me.
I play a lot of REAL games; last week was holiday with a befriended couple we regularly have gaming evenings with - a week of gaming, what a great thing. But I hasten to add that I never cheat or make wrong moves - not because I'm such a honest guy, but because I did realize very early in my life that winning with cheating doesn't satisfy me; it just doesn't feel like winning and is not worth the bother.
That makes it all the more interesting that I find the idea absolutely hilarious to play chess with someone, suddenly move a piece in a completely illegal way, and then declare victory - checkmate, buddy!
Of course, countering the accusation of having made an illegal move with a "You're missing the point", is interesting insofar, as I don't like chess anymore (having played semi-earnest in my youth).
Weird. In any case keep me informed should the dream continue ...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 07, 2012 09:05 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 07, 2012 09:18 PM |
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He had a point?
I think he complained like a sissy because he lost, instead of taking the loss like a man.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 07, 2012 10:44 PM |
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Lol, dreams have many interpretations as you know.
Sorry to derail the thread; the conversation here just reminded me of it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 10, 2012 01:37 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
It's not about 100% victory because I got this or didn't get that while the opponent's performance was a given. It's just that H5 was too much about gaining momentum and if you got too far ahead while your opponent in his misfortune failed to secure the tools to match your pace, he was pretty much in deep waters. Because if you broke through a rich, heavily guarded area one week faster you could gain the momentum to rush and beat him silly.
In principle you are right but H5 was a very biased game when it came to certain things And I'd still rather have random mage guilds than guaranteed spells through the skill system, I'd just prefer that spells are less situational, more balanced with each other and that there are more than 2 spells per tier with a 50% chance to get either.
I agree of course that H5 isn't the most balanced game, and some things are indeed a lottery - a lot of things actually, come to think of it.
Yeah he woke up from the trance ! he came back to us , walk into the light JJ !
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted September 10, 2012 06:26 PM |
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Quote:
Yes I miss the faction specialized skill trees, they could even work with a point buy system while keeping their diversity of choices.
Branching tree paths are just more fun than picking whatever independent ability you want. We miss abilities like warlock's luck, banishment, exorcism, retribution and the like, that were strongly tied to a certain skill or required a synergy of two skills to unlock.
I guess the reason for the linear skill system, is that you have 100% choice in skill selection, so there is no need for certain skills requiring this synergy of two skills to unlock....does make it dull I agree. I really do hope they introduce faction unique skills, and not just one per section, but a couple so that they become choices too....otherwise, everyone would always pick the faction unique skill...
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 13, 2012 02:30 AM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 02:30, 13 Sep 2012.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted September 13, 2012 04:07 AM |
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And yet, our insiders have told us time and again that the online game is not the next step in the HoMM series... Just saiyan.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 13, 2012 09:42 AM |
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The Online game exists for a long time (Kingdoms). Heroes online will NOT replace M&M: Heroes.
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