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| Thread: 3 tiers OR 7? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted October 13, 2012 08:24 AM |
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Poll Question:
3 tiers OR 7?
while i praised the idea of having
3 tiers (core/elite/champion)
instead of old system (7 tiers)
before HoMM6 was out,
later i realized that it affected
the replayabilty (in addition to weak magic)
so i can say that i admit now
the old 7 tier was better
but thats just IMHO
and what do u guys think?
whats better???
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 08:53 AM |
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The tier system has the advantage that you can link the tiers with skills/spells/abilities.
Since I don't see the strict necessity for the same 3/3/1 structure for everyone nor a distinct leap between all creatures of one tier and all of the next, everything speaks for keeping such an organizational structure.
The structure itself could be more loosely, though.
So I don't think, there is a difference, and that tendency will become more obvious with the revised building costs of 1.8.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 13, 2012 09:19 AM |
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The tier system is not bad, it just needs more variation and extra tiers. I believe that 4 tiers would work better so that the first tier is the equivalent of lvl 1-2, the second lvl 3-4, the third lvl 5-6 and fourth lvl7.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 09:31 AM |
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i really cannot tell the difference so I'm waiting for the "veteran" players to to post more (i'm smart ).
seriously the core creatures for example have different attack and there are magic units now so i think they are pretty distinct concerning battle. as for growth , i think there, it becomes more complicated with the dwellings etc.
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bigjocker
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Forgotten but not Forsaken
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posted October 13, 2012 09:35 AM |
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I love 7 tier system, but 4 tier system should also be OK, like Elvin says.
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HoMM3Lite
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 13, 2012 09:39 AM |
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Flat system in H6 just takes away the variety and makes champion creatures seem weak (they already got boosted a number of times). If stats are balanced and flat, there's not much room for a progress. That's a flaw in design.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 13, 2012 09:39 AM |
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Part of the problem in H6(in my eyes at least) was that cores are too tough and champions lackluster. But I did like the fact that cores could hold their own, they just shouldn't have so powerful abilities or so many hp. In older games lvl 1 units used to be roughly 5-10hp and lvl 2 around 10-20hp. I think that 8-15hp would make better sense as the weakest units of the faction. They wouldn't fall like flies nor would it be possible to defend and let them take the damage while your hero uses his direct attack.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2012 10:22 AM |
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I think the idea of having less tiers with more units on the same tier had some merits, but the problem with the current implementation is that the strength difference between the tiers is too small, meaning that particularly the champions lose their epicness, and the game comes to feal more flat.
I think that it's an inherent problem of trying to make less "useless" tier 1 units that quickly become waste and without value - while that intend is noble, one has to realize that the really epic units get their epicness by contrast to those weak units, so when you make the weak units good, that also means the great units become only a little better than the worst units, thus taking out a lot of the dynamics of the game.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 11:17 AM |
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The system would work FANTASTIC with some additions:
1. 1 extra tier - it just feels somewhat incomplete
2. CHOICE - at least 3 dwellings per tiers 1-3, and two for champion units - with the player being able to build 2-2-2-1 - that would boost replayability and give interesting tactical choices
3. The units should work with each other better, have skills that work in tandem, etc - I like how cores for for haven, for instance (tank, healer, damage dealer - they work together well), but some other castles have pretty random cores or elites that don't seem to work together well.
4. If extra dwellings are impossible (too much work), we should at least have alternative upgrades  Of course, they should be done better than HoMM V ones where you could clearly select the better unit 90% of the time.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2012 11:28 AM |
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Quote:
The system would work FANTASTIC with some additions:
1. 1 extra tier - it just feels somewhat incomplete
2. CHOICE - at least 3 dwellings per tiers 1-3, and two for champion units - with the player being able to build 2-2-2-1 - that would boost replayability and give interesting tactical choices
3. The units should work with each other better, have skills that work in tandem, etc - I like how cores for for haven, for instance (tank, healer, damage dealer - they work together well), but some other castles have pretty random cores or elites that don't seem to work together well.
4. If extra dwellings are impossible (too much work), we should at least have alternative upgrades Of course, they should be done better than HoMM V ones where you could clearly select the better unit 90% of the time.
I agree that 4 levels might make a better differentiation between top and bottom - on the other hand, I think that the current 3-unit system offers a nice option for synergy, because you can make trios of offense-defense-supporet, which you wouldn't quite get to do if you only have two units on each tier.
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What will happen now?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 13, 2012 12:06 PM |
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I am rather fond of the new system. Yes I would agree that the increment of power for each tier might be a little higher. But I'd rather have it the way it is now than to throw balance in the wind and ramp the power up.
My main complaint with the system, is that the way it is now, it is too rigid. When one chooses a faction, one is set to one overall stategy. There is not enough possibility to differentiate ones strategy. And I have discussed this and a possible solution in a proposal made by yours truely. Basically, with the addition one more creatures per faction, this fine system could become a great system.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 12:23 PM |
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No, 4 levels make no sense, since you couldn't link them with ability levels (which is quite handy for a couple of things) - except if you'd have 4 ability levels as well, like, basic, advanced, expert, superior.
Not, that it wouldn't be possible, but obviously you'd have to fit those to have the same number.
However, since I'd imagine a different ability system for VII than that of VI I'm not sure whether 4 levels really make sense. Or, better - I DON'T think they make sense, since I think that a 3 level depth is deep enough for skills/abilities.
I simply think that factions should be A LOT more individual, and that includes tier structure. There is nothing wrong with one faction being 3/3/1, another being 3/2/2, another being 2/3/2, yet another being even 4/2/1.
I also don't see that creatures of 1 tier have to be quite similar in strength. Variations are pretty big. In the Core tier we have 100% difference in smallest and biggest HP and growth as well. You CAN have Elite units with 50 HPs and a growth of 5/8, for example. You also can have Elite units with 140 HPs and a growth of 2/3. You can also have a Champion unit with 400 HPs, growth 1/2, or TWO Champion units, one with 175 HPs, the other with 220 HPs, and both with the 2/3 or even a 1/3 growth (with a cheaper basic dwelling and and a very expensive upgrade.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 12:43 PM |
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Quote:
I am rather fond of the new system. Yes I would agree that the increment of power for each tier might be a little higher. But I'd rather have it the way it is now than to throw balance in the wind and ramp the power up.
My main complaint with the system, is that the way it is now, it is too rigid. When one chooses a faction, one is set to one overall stategy. There is not enough possibility to differentiate ones strategy. And I have discussed this and a possible solution in a proposal made by yours truely. Basically, with the addition one more creatures per faction, this fine system could become a great system.
The balance problems that come with a system that will allow REALLY different army set-ups would be rather severe - impossible, actually, since every alternative would have to be equally viable (and you couldn't even make different set-ups with a view on different factions, because all factions had different set-up opportunities).
For really DIFFERENT approaches, at the very least a decisive change in BF rules was necessary. You would have to allow fliers to attack ANY target in range, guarded or not, which would basically mean, giving all fliers an ability like strike-and-return to any square in range and attack units without landing on a square. Also, the range system for shooter units would have to be refined.
If you do NOT do it, guarded ranged troops are simply too good.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 13, 2012 01:55 PM |
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I like the 7-system. Makes the big creatures more epic and the small ones less ludicrous
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 04:04 PM |
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I picked new system for this reason.
Quote:
The tier system is not bad, it just needs more variation and extra tiers. I believe that 4 tiers would work better so that the first tier is the equivalent of lvl 1-2, the second lvl 3-4, the third lvl 5-6 and fourth lvl7.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2012 04:22 PM |
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Personally for me the most interesting system looks like a hybrid of the fourth, fifth and sixth parts of the series. I mean having six types of heroes for each faction (neutral might, blood might, tears might, neutral magic, blood magic, tears magic - "Heroes VI" feature), making a choice between might and magic creatures' dwellings (a special kind of "Heroes IV" feature) and deciding how to upgrade your creatures (basic neutral and upgraded blood or tears versions - something like "Heroes V" alternative upgrades). For example, while playing the Sanctuary faction you'll be able to choose between tier 1 Kappas (neutral might) and Reef Nagas (neutral magic) with the following upgrading them into Poisonous Kappas (blood might, "Leap") or Tenacious Kappas (tears might, "Coiling Tongue") and Medusas (blood magic, "Petrification") or Tide Maidens (tears magic, "Waves of Renewal") depending on a hero who is going to use these creatures. And so on. Of course, it should be up to the player to decide which creatures' dwellings to build and which upgrades to pay for in order to make the game more diversified. For example, you can hire Tide Maidens for a hero of any affinity and reputation, not for tears magic heroes only.
That's my opinion about perfect creature system. Sorry if my post is off-topic. I voted for the "New system (please specify)" option.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted October 13, 2012 04:25 PM |
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Quote:
I picked new system for this reason.
Quote:
The tier system is not bad, it just needs more variation and extra tiers. I believe that 4 tiers would work better so that the first tier is the equivalent of lvl 1-2, the second lvl 3-4, the third lvl 5-6 and fourth lvl7.
Elvin, you have a fanboy!
Picked the tier system, because I like it. The idea, at least. It might need some tweaking though.
Also, elite growth always feels very high when you get them going. They're not as epic as before, but you get about as much as a, um, level 4 or 5 unit. Not as epic, but lots more. Still, it could use some tweaking, one way or the other.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Naze
Known Hero
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posted October 14, 2012 10:59 AM |
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A 3 tier system is good, although a 4 tier, as proposed by Elvin, would be better, IMO. Even more, I would appreciate alternative upgrades (at least for some of the creatures) and, maybe even alternation of creatures within a tier - let's say, you have 3 units in a tier, but within one castle can build only 2 buildings of that tier...
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 14, 2012 11:09 AM |
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I for once think that 3 tiers system is perfect. 4 would be just to random at some point, and like JJ stated, I think it would be harder to create a functional cooperation between them.
On the other hand, the 1 extra unit per tier would be a good thing. Well maybe not for cores, but if we had the option to chose 3 out of 4 elites and 1 out of 2 champions, I would be OK with that.
Example I would much like to see the option to chose mermaids over Spring spirits or Snow maidens.
sidenote. We actually have 4 tier system now  Core-Elite-Champion Boss.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted October 14, 2012 12:03 PM |
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I am not strongly in favor in either system, but I think that I liked the 7 tier one slightly more, mostly because of the variation in strenght and weaknesses. Champion units should be more powerful, and tier 1 should be fairly weak but perhaps with some ultility so that they are still somewhat useful. Or, just look at pikemen from Heroes 3, you did not want to face a horde of them.
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