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| Thread: 3 tiers OR 7? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 14, 2012 01:55 PM |
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While I have been favoring the "additional unit per tier" expansion as well, I also think that simply adding an additional unit won't do. Example: Take Inferno Elite: possible addition would be a) Nightmares (another 4-square melee fighter or b) Efreet (a 1-square flier). Obviously a) wouldn't gain anything because whether Mightmares or Ravagers would be a rather unimportant question.
b) on the other hand, would clearly be IN as a one-square flier and would probably lead to ravagers being out 8 or out of 10 times.
I see two possible ways for an additional unit per tier:
a) in combination with a reserves ability ( reserve I-III, allowing 1-3 reserves slots), so that the units wouldn't be "wasted" or
b) A simple unit without upgrade, that would be better than basic units but worse than an upgraded unit.
Here the decision would be made with a view on game length.
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samir
Hired Hero
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posted October 14, 2012 02:59 PM |
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Quote:
I for once think that 3 tiers system is perfect. 4 would be just to random at some point, and like JJ stated, I think it would be harder to create a functional cooperation between them.
On the other hand, the 1 extra unit per tier would be a good thing. Well maybe not for cores, but if we had the option to chose 3 out of 4 elites and 1 out of 2 champions, I would be OK with that.
Example I would much like to see the option to chose mermaids over Spring spirits or Snow maidens.
sidenote. We actually have 4 tier system now  Core-Elite-Champion Boss.
Of course you like homm6 system best, you are their biggest fanboy.
I picked the 7 tier thing, Like it much better that way.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 14, 2012 03:42 PM |
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Quote:
Of course you like homm6 system best, you are their biggest fanboy.
I picked the 7 tier thing, Like it much better that way.
Actually my dear friend this system has been introduced in a different Might and magic spinoff - Clash of heroes where it had been implemented in a rather different way.
But since you directly attack me now. I wonder How r******d one can be to write the way you do... any problems now?
And by the way my favorite Heroes game of all time is Heroes II which had more charm and strategy options then your glorified Heroes III. Go learn something about the game and the franchise. And before you have learned something, do not speak, quote or indirectly reply to my posts ever again. Thank you.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 14, 2012 06:10 PM |
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Now now, let's avoid barbs please.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 14, 2012 07:51 PM |
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I like the 7 system more, although the 3 tier system is not bad (on paper at least). I always liked level 7 units the most, because, although their price was steep, you got what you paid for, and units like dragons, titans or hydras were my favorite (actually I liked every tier 7 unit ). Also I really liked the ,,mega'' dragons from AB, fights with them were always epic, and their price ate half of your weekly budget . In Heroes 4 the differences between each level was also clear (in a positive way I think). The problems with unit level balancing started in Heroes 5 imo. In Heroes 6 I don't feel that legendary (or even champion) units are worth their price... but those are just my thoughts.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 14, 2012 08:04 PM |
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That's because of the game mechanics. With earlier versions level 7s came with a lot of attack value, basically doubbling their damage.
In VI creatures don't have an attack value - but a resistance value that cuts damage.
So in VI Champs are quite durable, but not devastating.
Which means, it's not the tier system but game mechanics.
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Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
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posted October 14, 2012 08:26 PM |
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Personally, I like the 7-Tier system the best, but I did find the Heroes VI 3-Tier system very interesting and pretty effective.
@Samir
Quote:
Of course you like homm6 system best, you are their biggest fanboy.
That's just rude. This may come off as a surprise to you, but in these forums, you might run into people who approve of the Heroes games. There's no need to heckle them just because their opinion differs from yours. Again, it's a forum.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted October 14, 2012 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
That's just rude. This may come off as a surprise to you, but in these forums, you might run into people who approve of the Heroes games. There's no need to heckle them just because their opinion differs from yours. Again, it's a forum.
I wish I could encounter them more...
The problem with 7-tier is that it's very hard to find a good use to every one of your units. There's often, if not always, a unit or 2 (if not more) that is completely useless. In the 3-tier system, I'd argue that there are no completely useless units. They are varying in use, but not useless. That's an improvement.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 14, 2012 08:54 PM |
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Sure, but it feels like leading an entourage of digimon rather than an actual army.
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Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
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posted October 14, 2012 09:12 PM |
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Quote:
Sure, but it feels like leading an entourage of digimon rather than an actual army.
...
Explain...?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 14, 2012 09:18 PM |
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No. Personal opinion, doesn't have to be rational.
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Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
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posted October 14, 2012 09:41 PM |
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 Alrighty then.
@Simpelicity
You're right. There always were those useless creatures in Heroes 3 and 5. But for some reason, I'm always better at forming an army in Heroes 3 and 5 than I am at forming one in Heroes 6. That's probably just me though.
The good thing about the 3-Tier system in Heroes 6, though, is that it makes it so that different unit types can be more or less on the same level as other units in your army, Haven's healers, infantry and archers all being the same Tier, for example.
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted October 14, 2012 11:17 PM |
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Quote:
The problem with 7-tier is that it's very hard to find a good use to every one of your units. There's often, if not always, a unit or 2 (if not more) that is completely useless. In the 3-tier system, I'd argue that there are no completely useless units. They are varying in use, but not useless. That's an improvement.
i disagree with you on this one
as you could stretch that Tier 1 are useless for example,
but they are useful in the beginning of the game!
as for starting from Tier 2 to the rest,
they are all useful!
no i wouldnt say that in 7 tier system were useless units
except peasants, of course
as for 4 tier system i see the problem
that units are just too resilient
too much defense and hp!
Champion units lost their value as before
their damage is just too low
i am not against 4 tiers
i think it should be reworked
and will work great!
but why invent a bicycle
if we had a perfect 7 tiers already..
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted October 16, 2012 11:06 PM |
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I have loved the core/elite/champion system since I first played Clash of Heroes. I love how there are no useless units(almost none) no matter their tier. It feels more like playing a chess game where every piece is useful and not half of them are pathetic pawns. It has bothered me ever since Heroes 3 how a horseman is better than 10 swordmen while a swordman is better than 10 spearmen. It is just dumb in a lot of situations like the one just mentioned.
I kind of like the idea of having 4 core/elite units so you can customize your army and tactics a bit more but it would sure become more complicated. I would also like if they did what they did in TotE with the creature upgrades. Does not require much more than new skins and altered abilities but it would drastically improve customization of tactics.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 17, 2012 12:22 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 00:25, 17 Oct 2012.
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Quote:
It has bothered me ever since Heroes 3 how a horseman is better than 10 swordmen while a swordman is better than 10 spearmen. It is just dumb in a lot of situations like the one just mentioned.
1 Cavalier is not better then 10 Swordsman in a clean fight, the same goes for swordsman vs 10 pikeman. And for me it's quite logical. A pikeman is a commoner with basic training, a swordsman is an expert in fighting with a sword, and a cavalier is the flower of knighthood. Of course, in real life there are many factors in a fight, but conventionally speaking, a group of ill-trained, low-morale and poorly armed pikeman won't stand a chance with a skilled fighter or a charging horse. Putting aside random factors, it's a fantasy game, so many things are agreed upon and units represent the strength of each tier/level...
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Slayer
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 18, 2012 02:25 AM |
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I find that the current system has some problems, like, for example when getting mines or other things, there is no basic tier 1 "Lots" unit that you used to fight, and for most creatures, if properly used you never get losses early on.
Personally I think that the best system would be a 7 tier system, with choices, there should also be no cost between the choices and have the choices akin to Hero of Light, in his mod for H3.
Example:
Tier 1 Troglodyte or Kobold
Standard building, Troglodyte, upgraded building gives the option for Kobolds, and Trog's, at a 0 gold fee to swap between them.
I just feel like FOR SURE that the options system on H5 was just bad... just bad...
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garnju
Hired Hero
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posted October 19, 2012 02:39 PM |
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I would pick the core-elite-champion version even if i do not own H6 or CoH, only played with them 3-4 hours.
Jolly already suggested an explanation to the "how introduce new creatures" with more neutrals tied with different factions.
I further imagined this idea (however not actually new, already played with it in Jiriks <not remembering the name the user who always tries to create faction creating contest with STRONG impacts from H3>
Let me explain without a "prologue" :
Lets suggest there are 6-8-9 (pick your favored number) factions.
The type of neutrals (including already existing ones) could be split in to 2 main types.
- Neutrals as we already know, hire-able in dwellings, affect moral if mixed with an army
- Neutrals "connected" for 1-2-3 (again pick your loved number) factions with upgrades to each connected faction. The basic creature should affect the moral as usually however if its in an army witch consist of connected faction there should be no penalty effect. The upgrades would create penalty expect for "their" faction.
Just simple example for ... ehh nevermind
Wolf (as it introduced in the game)
If you put it in Stronghold, Haven or Insertyourfavored faction it will not bring any moral penalty. For others there are penalty
Upgrades : Goblin rider for Stronghold, new wolf or even direwolf for Haven some other for the third faction.
They do not affect moral in tied faction, affect everyone else (even if that faction has its own upgrade for the basic of the creature)
With this (and as Jolly mentioned before) you could even create more powerfull units (at least for their tier level) since their growth aren't affected by town/hero abilities.
About tier3 versus tier7. If you really want to be an analyzing jerk we/you could say that there is already a 3 level divide in tier 7 systems.
Tier 1-3 : have there individual dwellings Tier 4-6(+7) : only got their summarized dwelling (military post) and the tier 7 could be divided from the others since you need other resource too not just gold.
Ohh yeah and before some H3 fans rip off my head, i quite enjoy Ashan-lore and yes i played h3-4+exp + M&M6-8 but i like the 'new world' better.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2012 11:16 PM |
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Quote:
While I have been favoring the "additional unit per tier" expansion as well, I also think that simply adding an additional unit won't do. Example: Take Inferno Elite: possible addition would be a) Nightmares (another 4-square melee fighter or b) Efreet (a 1-square flier). Obviously a) wouldn't gain anything because whether Mightmares or Ravagers would be a rather unimportant question.
b) on the other hand, would clearly be IN as a one-square flier and would probably lead to ravagers being out 8 or out of 10 times.
I see two possible ways for an additional unit per tier:
a) in combination with a reserves ability ( reserve I-III, allowing 1-3 reserves slots), so that the units wouldn't be "wasted" or
b) A simple unit without upgrade, that would be better than basic units but worse than an upgraded unit.
Here the decision would be made with a view on game length.
Or, Efreet could be 2x2 Flier?
Also, having read through this topic, I think the 3-tier system might be worth another go if:
a) Lowest tier is made weaker
b) Strongest tier is made stronger and (much) lower growth
c) There is a choice between different creatures serving different roles on each tier (I'd go for 4-4-2 of which you choose 3-3-1)
____________
What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 20, 2012 09:26 AM |
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As I said, you can have both, since the differences between creatures of a tier can be bigger and the structure doesn't have to be 3-3-1 for everyone.
Also, Cores are not good because they are so "tough" or numerous; they are so good because of the game mechanics and the not-existing creature attack value.
Still, 1.8 changed the balance somewhat.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 20, 2012 11:29 AM |
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Yeah, making the legendary stronger and with lower growth would be nice. Like in Heroes 3, where Black's or Archangels strength and speed where one of the main factors when deciding to fight with them or not (I'm referring to neutral stacks), because you always had to deal with casualties. Whereas the only dangerous units in H6 are Weavers and Phoenixes because of their abilities (one's an archer and both have the nasty return damage ability, upg. Cyclops although archers, are not that hard to deal with). Imo highest tier units should be expensive but deadly, units that change the odds of battle when they appear on the battlefield.
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