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| Thread: Israel and Palestine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 27, 2015 01:35 AM |
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Oh, very well. If you all insist.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 27, 2015 01:50 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 27, 2015 03:42 AM |
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Corribus said:
Oh, very well. If you all insist.
I'm getting the vague impression that you don't exactly agree with what I wrote. 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted October 27, 2015 04:00 AM |
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In my country there's this great controversy about Muslims due to the project of building a mosque in Bucharest. I wish the protesters were more informed on this religion and not only on terrorism. Good post, artu.
I mean, even if I don't plan on converting to Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Buddhism or any other religion, I should at least know enough about them to understand the world around.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 27, 2015 05:19 AM |
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Minion said:
Tony Blair acknowledged that there are "elements of truth" in the view that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was the principle cause of the rise of ISIS.
-CNN
The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with it. ISIS rose under Obama, who insisted on withdrawing from Iraq against all of the advice from the Pentagon. He announced exactly when the troop pullouts would be far in advance. And free red line after red line without consequences for crossing them. Everyone from Islamic radicals to Putin and China came to see Obama for who he is an as a result there are growing threats evertwhere.
Obama has been doing the minimum amount that he can get away in his "fight" against ISIS. His administration promised to chase ISIS to the gates of hell. His actions not so much. ISIS started off as a very small group but under Obama's ineffective strategy has grown greatly. Degrade and destroy? Not under Obama.
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Revelation
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 27, 2015 07:56 AM |
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You really seem to think that your effectively bankrupt state can support war expenses ad infinitum, don't you?
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2015 03:42 PM |
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Presidents are just puppets and poster boys. The USA is a republic, not a democracy, and real decisions are taken in the congress. Well, when they don't bypass it to declare war, that is. But who are "they"? I like to refer to them as a hidden council of republican sith lords that dictates everything related to foreign policy.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted October 27, 2015 03:53 PM |
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I'd say all the politicians depend on corporations and the like.
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 27, 2015 04:22 PM |
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Kayna said:
I like to refer to them as a hidden council of republican sith lords that dictates everything related to foreign policy.
lol, they're not that cool. you're giving them far too much credit; these dipsnows are the orville redenbacher's of villains. they're really just a hired group of dumbasses, meant to break people's spirits, to give them the idea that there is nothing they can really do to fix things.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 27, 2015 05:31 PM |
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Can you not off topic this with isis, i thought you all should sheepishly express dislike to israel and zionism because of mel education, disinformation, or personal bad experience and we should accept because its not the same if France had to give up half of Orleans to England on the grounds it was once they'res during 15 16 century, or the whole greek Macedonia thing. Its ok we jews should suffer right?
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types in obscure english
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2015 05:58 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 18:01, 27 Oct 2015.
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Of course it's not ok that Jews suffer. It's not ok when anyone suffers. My beef is when we express opinions that doesn't contain the whole story. Heck, sometimes we have opinions that doesn't even include 10 seconds of prior context. I call them the goldfish opinions. Knowing is half the battle, and we should get real.
The way our government representatives and media portrays a problem, by remaining factual but without giving us a context prior to yesterday, is not how we should analyze things. It's a format of information we are bombarded with daily, and becomes akin to brainwash.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 27, 2015 06:12 PM |
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So maybe you should believe people who live this conflict on daily basis for years..
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types in obscure english
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 27, 2015 07:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 06:58, 28 Oct 2015.
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antipaladin said:
Can you not off topic this with isis, i thought you all should sheepishly express dislike to israel and zionism because of mel education, disinformation, or personal bad experience and we should accept because its not the same if France had to give up half of Orleans to England on the grounds it was once they'res during 15 16 century, or the whole greek Macedonia thing. Its ok we jews should suffer right?
That's manipulation and blind nationalism at its best and it's outrageous to call people sheepish because they don't agree with your claim of land that goes back to ancient times and religious text. If everybody had that kind of thinking, we'd be at each other's throat forever. Israel was established in the 20th century and did not exist prior to that for thousands of years. It's not like you lost land for a few decades and now want that back. Your position is like Turkey wanting to have Central Asia back. You are the one being "sheepish" by replicating your governments extreme-right politics. The civilized world has every frigging tendency to sympathize with you and they already have their fair share of prejudice against the people you colonize. Your people have been through one of the biggest tragedies of entire history only about 70 years ago. Yet, somehow, your government managed to turn almost every country, every civil rights organization and the extreme majority of intellectuals against you.
You're not the only Middle-Eastern country that suffers on a daily basis, we all have our share of this mess. Yet, only yours sees itself entitled to preemtive strikes using unproportional force AND claims that it also wants to be considered a part of the democratic, civilized nations. And with zero diplomacy and zero soft power, of course you live this on a daily basis, realize that you are not the US or Great Britain which would hop on their ships and go back overseas if things get too messy, you will be living face to face, door to door, border to border with the Arabs for centuries, so it would be nice if you base your macro-politics on that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2015 07:49 PM |
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antipaladin said:
So maybe you should believe people who live this conflict on daily basis for years..
And what should I believe if Palestinians and Jewish people have a different version of the subject?
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 27, 2015 09:16 PM |
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@artu: i think its not far much from the Cyprus dispute, funny you don't see it that way 
also you said Quote:
only yours see itself entitled to preemtive strikes using unproportional force
you got any better idea for retalition ? or we shouldn't retalite at all, because its okay that they bomb us every day, and go around with knifes try to hurt people as much as posible, its okay! thats just they're way expressing protest
@kanya: come live here for about a week...
here is how we see the media describe israel happends multilenguage are required
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types in obscure english
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 27, 2015 09:20 PM |
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antipaladin said:
@kanya: come live here for about a week...
i would, but nobody will buy me a plane ticket, or find an airline that'll let me carry an arsenal over there; all so i can find the goshdang borders. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 27, 2015 11:18 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:20, 27 Oct 2015.
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Well, this will be somewhat off-topic, but to reply properly I must go into a little detail.
antipaladin said:
@artu: i think its not far much from the Cyprus dispute, funny you don't see it that way
also you said Quote:
only yours see itself entitled to preemtive strikes using unproportional force
you got any better idea for retalition ? or we shouldn't retalite at all, because its okay that they bomb us every day, and go around with knifes try to hurt people as much as posible, its okay! thats just they're way expressing protest
The Cyprus issue has many crucial differences even if we focus on the similarities. Let me go one by one:
1- First of all and most importantly, I don't approve everything my government did on that issue either.
2- During the time of the occupation, foreign policy was de facto determined by the military. We had a coup in 1971 and the occupation was in 1974. I think most of the ethnic clash was artificial and provoked on both sides. They had their nationalists with their Megali Idea and we had ours with "revenge for the lost lands" stuff. The military was dying to have a naval base in the Mediterranean, they took the chance. Even if the first campaign that claimed to stop Greek nationalists from killing the Turks was justifiable to a point when things got out of hand, the second one that "conquered" Northern Cyprus wasn't. And that's why Pakistan is the only country that officially recognizes Northern Cyprus as a state today.
3- If you put aside a minority of extremely nationalist bigots and the most heated days of the conflict, Turks and Greeks usually get along just fine, there is no hatred between the people despite all the propaganda. Put them in a fish restaurant by the beach and they'll be singing folk songs together after a few Rakis/Uzos. The killings on both side were incidental.
4- While your government rejects every UN decision about its policy with Uncle Sam backing it up, in the early 2000's, when the UN came with a plan of reunification of Cyprus (The Annan Plan), we accepted it. Both nations had a referendum if Cyprus should re-unite, Turks voted yes, it was the Greeks who voted no.
5- Even though it causes political tension every now and then, Turks and Greeks of Cyprus don't kill each other on a daily basis for the last 30 years. I shortly lived in Cyprus, most of the old people even miss the days when the island was a union.
On your other question about retaliation, I think I made my comments about that quite clearly, no need to repeat myself at great length. If you act brutal, they will react brutal and then so will you and it won't just end, I don't want to repeat the details, a lot of people including myself already mentioned them just a page or two earlier.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 28, 2015 12:42 AM |
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Kayna said:
I like to refer to them as a hidden council of republican sith lords that dictates everything related to foreign policy.
It's not a republican hidden council, it's a corporates hidden council. Just think of TPP, support to Saudi Arabia, gun manufacturer's industry, etc... Even when conservatives support these policies, it's not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of corruption and lobbing.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 28, 2015 03:27 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 02:19, 29 Oct 2015.
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Well, probably a mix of the two. I personally rank money as the no 2 power, and guns as the no 1. As things stands now, both work in tandem... but I believe a political switch can prove us that guns are no 1.
For example, if one day there is a switch and suddenly the Americans wants to side with the Arab folk rather than the Jews, I bet the US could suddenly find out plenty of fraud from all the richest Jews in America + saying they're financing Jewish terrorists and boom, freeze and confiscate all assets. That's the power of the law ( enforced with guns ).
But yeah, that council that seems to dictate all foreign US policy ( while leaving the home policy to the republicans and democrats, giving us the illusion that there is a struggle for power when there is only a struggle for half the power ) is probably a mix of both the richest men on earth and highly ranked US military officials and some congress members chosen for their intelligence, their control freakness and absolute loyalty to the US cause.
edit : not to mention that government $ is also one heck of a source of money, I doubt any corporation out there can beat it ha.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 11:24 PM |
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This is going way of topic but both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are saying corporate's donations to campaigns are influencing (buying) the positions of the White House and the Senate.
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