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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 30, 2013 08:46 AM |
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Quote:
What particualry is ironic is that before borders and visas existed, people could travel around the world freely. How come immigration was not a problem back then?
Actually, that's not so. Let me give you an etymological example. In Turkish serbest means free, unrestricted to be more accurate. The word comes from two Persian words Ser meaning head and -best meaning linked to, subject to, related to. So serbest actually meant a person (head) was subject to someone. It meant exactly the opposite of what it means today. Or did it? Historians say in the old times if you had the proper seals or papers showing you were, for example, the sultan's tax collector, then you could freely pass border gates, road blocks etc etc. Hence, the meaning of the word Serbest evolved into free. It seems strange at first, but come to think of it, today if you have a passport authenticating you are a subject to a state, you can travel freely, if not, you are stuck. Basically, it's the same thing.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted January 30, 2013 03:21 PM |
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Quote:
quote:
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Look atround you. People dont want somebody who they dont know enter their country.
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So because some other people oppose more liberal immigration that should stop me from pursueing those ideas?
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You cant simply go into the EU and say "I wanna become a german or a swede and seek a better life".
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I'm not saying you can, I'm saying you should be able too. The EU has free migration within the schengenen area. I'd imagine that free migration would start off between the European countries, the US and other rich countries. For the poor countries, you can't just open your borders to them without changing your own country first.
Spoken like a true swede Xerox. 
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 30, 2013 05:48 PM |
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My God what did I miss...
@artu
Converting to Judaism in Israel is (unfortunately) not an easy process. It may be easier somewhere else if done by a reformist, but in Israel the orthodox streams managed to get a monopoly on conversion, marriage and some other stuff. From time to time people try to change that, but so far to no avail. Any way, to convert over here you need to pass a rather long and tiresome process of learning, experiencing, tested and being observed for a period of time until you get the O.K. However, this again is to be Jewish in the eyes of religion (which still could be important in some cases), it is not required for people like me who are Jewish by blood to get a citizenship.
@mvass
The reason I'm often using the "everybody's doing it" argument is because if you that is the way of things, then it is not the problem of Israel specifically, but the problem of the world and in my eyes belongs in another thread.
Still, you asked my opinion so you deserve an answer. I don't see a problem with a country making their criteria for citizenship nationality-based. That is because most countries are based on nationalities. For many people being part of a certain nation, part of a certain tradition is still something they can relate to and be proud of and therefore would want to preserve it.
Your analogy with a house and a tenant is not accurate. It talks about residents, not citizens. Residents can live and work in your house, but can't make any decisions. They can make suggestions of course, but ultimately you decide what to do with your home. Israel does permit to certain amount of entry of non-Jewish people here and become a resident and work and earn money and one day go home to their families with all their hard earned cash.
Citizenship is different. Citizenship means you get to choose what this country looks like, and this country by and large wants to remain Jewish and keep the tradition and history of its people. Because if it won't, who will?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 30, 2013 06:02 PM |
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Problem is, you don't really have free migration if you limit it only to the people who are unlikely to migrate anyway ('cause they can make a decent living in their own countries, see). The whole internal policy of the EU on the matter is a huge mess - as it usually happens when you try to balance between totally conflicting interests. So you either close your borders and take off the hypocritical mask of the "free movement" (which would mean the end of the EU), or inject funds into the poor countries until their economies become vital enough to keep the vast majority of their populations well above the existence minimum. Currently the first option is unavailable and the second is badly executed (say, in Bulgaria's case, pouring money into a country which has huge problems with the corruption, is effectively ruled by ex- and current criminals and is in the middle of its worst demographic crisis in its new history, is the same as throwing them away).
Enough off-topic though.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2013 02:16 AM |
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Geny:
It's not the problem of Israel specifically because many other countries are less ethnocentric in their immigration policies. Look at the US or Canada, for example. Or even France, Germany, or the UK. Sure, the US's immigration policy is far too restrictive, but at least its restrictiveness isn't based on something particularly abhorrent (ethnicity).
The problem is, a country isn't like a house that's owned by the government. A country is a collection of territories owned by individual private entities, and the government merely protects those individuals and their property from those who would aggress against them (whether the aggression comes from outside or inside the country).
No tradition or religion should be protected by force. If it's a good tradition, others should adopt it. If not, it should disappear.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 31, 2013 05:45 PM |
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What if it's neither good nor bad? Or if it's good, but is mutually exclusive with another equally good tradition?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2013 07:50 PM |
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Then those who like it should practice it, but not initiate force to prevent those who aren't interested in practicing the tradition from living near them. Just like some people like celebrating Halloween, but can't force those who don't like it from living in the same country as them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 09, 2013 06:43 PM |
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 09, 2013 07:25 PM |
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That was an interesting watch.
I saw a mix of genuine Palestinian distress and exaggeration and staging made for the cameras.
The problem is that, although I know some facts to be true and some facts to be false, even I'm not sure that where one ends and the other one begins.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 09, 2013 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:03, 09 Apr 2013.
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Well, the guys who make those videos are known to do that.
They dont do a good job on capturing the picture but at least its interesting to watch. It should be taken with a grain of salt really.
Those guys did a Balkan tour once and only visited 2 countries(Well one really because the second one does not count because their video time for the second country was 5 minutes and they went to the same people of nationality).
At least this time they got the naming right.
I just wish there were documentaries like this where they would visit areas in the cities and show city life or how it is to live in those areas.
The Israeli settlemens with the Solar panels were amusing because they probably are goverment funded. I dont suppose anyone with a brain would spend that much money on an area riddled with uncertainity unless the price per meter squared is dirt cheap.
I kinda wonder what the Palestinians get in terms of papers?
Do they get Israeli passports or some improvised UN documents?
If they are UN documents then those people have really snowed up lives there because I am pretty sure nobody accepts those things and they cannot emmigrate away.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 09, 2013 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
I dont suppose anyone with a brain would spend that much money on an area riddled with uncertainity unless the price per meter squared is dirt cheap.
Unless they are hardcore idealists.
Palestinians have Israeli issued passports (or at least they look like it), but their color is different to show that they are not Israeli citizen.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 09, 2013 08:49 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:52, 09 Apr 2013.
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Palestinians have Israeli issued passports (or at least they look like it), but their color is different to show that they are not Israeli citizen.
Aha, pretty much like UN issued documents. I just want to point out that they probably are useless as there is no palestinian "State".
If a bus people get mobbed or whatever, they have no representation, they have no ambasador to call or represent.
Here is another video about Israel. No doubt its going to be critical on Israel and its probably biased in someway or form.
But it is quite interesting to watch how hatred and demonization between people gets rooted into the peoples minds. I am talking about both sides here.
Personally,i think that the palestinians would have gained alot more credibility if they did not resort to violence and Jihad.
Israel and racism
However, in contrast to the earlier video, I think this one is sort of more believable.
Considering whats been going on the region for so long, I find it belivable.
May be I may be biased because I have experienced this type of "Ethnicism" my self in Balkans.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 31, 2014 04:52 PM |
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I strongly urge everyone to read the following link. It consists of two parts, a relatively sentimental letter by Brain Eno (the famous musician I guess), which illustrates the current situation and daily life in Gaza and a reply by, again the famous, Peter Schwartz, who is an American-Jew. Schwartz's reply puts the mutual hate I talked about earlier, in a historical context with great accuracy and balance. As someone from the region, I can easily say, it is one of the best analysis of the conflict I've read for quite a while.
Gaza and the Loss of Civilization
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 31, 2014 05:41 PM |
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2 things he got right. There ain't any moral high ground, but it's not as if he had a revelation because the majority of wars are not founded on moral ideas and principles. And survival, which he mentions. Which is natural for every war, so again no news flash. All in all I say it's a decent analysis, just that I have a problem with his system of beliefs. Being an atheist jew is in no way a more objective stance than judaist or a muslim. Something objective is anchored in a value outside of yourself which you cannot manipulate, like truth. And imo, the truth lies somewhere else.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 31, 2014 06:04 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:20, 31 Jul 2014.
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He doesn't claim he is more objective because he is an atheist (which is lack of belief btw, not a system of belief but this is not the religion thread), the only time he mentions that is while he introduces himself: "Let me say, that, as you know I am an immigrant and child of Holocaust survivors. I am culturally Jewish, but with no religious or spiritual inclinations, an atheist." It's not relevant to anything else.
And not all wars are about survival (for example Vietnam wasn't about survival for the Americans) and that is not what he suggests either.Some wars can have an understandable justification, most classical example being fighting against the Nazis. The acts in battle will be always about survival, not the causes. No, the success of the analysis lies within its clarity to sum up how and why things escalated the way they did and why different generations hold a different perspective about the moral grounds of the war, meanwhile, managing to explain all the three levels he mentions (Israeli-Arab conflict/Global politics/Internal US public opinion)very coherently and in such a brief way.
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Russia123
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2014 05:09 PM |
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Whenever i see a thread like this, I laugh and I laugh hard.
Israel shouldnt attack palestinians and wage bombing attacks on gaza, no. Thats not right.
What israel should do, is kill every muslim there is to ensure permanent peace.
Considering that muslims are responsible for countless attrocities and wage a war based on killing civilians, they should be killed indiscriminately unless they renounce their religion.
Russia has dealt with its muslim threat badly, instead of killing off all chechens in, it has left that cancer grow and make life unsafe.
Muslims need an apartheid state where they are treated as they deserve or give them the honor of being killed.Islamic garbage is responsible for genocide today in iraq and while the west's hypocrisy can only be laughed at, after all they support saudi arabia and UAE and qatar, they are indirectly responsible for the genocide in iraq and syria.
So dear HCers, if you dare support the palestinians, know that you support the enemies of christianity, human progress and the chariots of genocide, mass murder and regress.WW3 will be full of muslims gas chambers.And please mods, do not censor this, this is after all free speech.
take your daily dose of islam here, you get the best news on how "peaceful" they really are.
[url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/[/url]
The world isnt a just place, otherwise, there would be a crusade to purge this scum out of existence.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 23, 2014 05:30 PM |
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Choosing such nick then spreading such nazi propaganda is a disgrace, especially as first post in a community where all is about sharing.
Radical muslims kill indiscriminately unless you convert to their religion. And so you ask same thing unless they convert to your religion (or lack of).
I propose all radical extremists are killed, you first. How that it sounds now, free speech?
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 23, 2014 05:49 PM |
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Muslims are the only threat to this world. Jewish people are flawless angels here only to bring good to this world and guide us to perfection.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2014 05:50 PM |
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Sal said:
I propose all radical extremists are killed, you first. How that it sounds now, free speech?
Well, as long as I know it is difficullt to kill someone over the internet but it was time for a change in CoD empowering mods to delete all prejudice posts and banning these no brainners for good. Like one JEmo wasn't enouch...
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted August 23, 2014 05:56 PM |
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Most likely a semi-bot, joins forums after googling on the subject, posts an unique post propaganda then is gone.
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This thread is pages long: 
