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| Thread: Is life evil? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Seraphim
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posted January 16, 2013 09:48 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 22:00, 16 Jan 2013.
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Is life evil?
I have always disliked the Evil vs Good or black and white views of religion and that religion always appealed to the poor and weak.
But it is only natural that it appeals to the poor and weak because they are the ones fighting for survivial, that is why religion was concieved for in the past imo.
Leaders, monarchs, dictators, fake democracies and so on. All control the population of said territories through religion, repression and money. This is what I would define as evil. The root of all of this is power or wealth.
Wealthy people know other people, have money, have the means to control and intimidate. They dont need to fight for survival, at least not in the sense of finding a place to sleep or food.
But why do I mention religion and wealth? Because they are the oldest things that have defined mankind. Thousands of years ago, similar rules, decisions and values had were made, just as today.
Clan wars, famine, death. The same "us vs them". It is deep in our genes. We have not changed much as a species which is sad.
We can go one step further and see that the primary law of nature is "Consume or be consumed" or "kill or be killed" "Breed and kill".
Being killed is the worst thing that can happen to a mortal thing which has a limited life because it is unique and once it dies, it will never appear again.
Those genes, that individual is forever gone.
No respawning, nothing. Just atomic decomposition and absorption into something else.
The worst thing that can happen to an individual is being killed or wasting his life for something he/she does not want to and yet we see murders,wars,famine and so on every snowing day.
But why save others, why the talk about this crap? As a species, we are intelligent. One would presume that because of our intelligence, we would overcome our primal insticts and build something that would overcome our limitations, our biological limitations. But thats another subject.
My point is, the way nature works and evens energy distribution amongst its inhabitants makes it "Evil". Why do animals or creaturs have to endure so much pain for being eaten?
Biological bodies are far from being perfect and one thing all they have in comon is that none of them are prepared in the event they are eaten or killed by something. Why dont animals have a selfdestruct reaction? If we took life and made it a movie, it would become an interesting slasher movie with lots of blood,gore and of course sex.
If everything we have seen before, we see now has been death, violence and extinction. It seems to me as normal that humans developed religion. An escape and a possible explanation to the world. The most "Evil" thing that exists in nature is that it has no purpose. Our brains are purpose driven.
So we created fake reasons, religion. The point is, even a pure idea gets corrupted by our biological needs for wealth and power. By all means though, religion is not pure and its flaws are perfect samples of our own limitations of that time.
If our lives had no challenges and we would have to find a purpose, we would probably fail and descend into depression, or would we?
We are looking into a pointless universe, and we created entire fanatasies to overcome that. If we are to become something in the future that trascends our biological limitations, we might was well change who we are and become something else.
Would you change your genetics and remove the need to procreate and replace it with imortality? Would you remove the flaws of our body and become an autcast in a society?
Deus ex machina comes to my mind. Would you want to be subject to a machine that would govern humans equally and without any injustice? An utopian leader if you wish and forgo all biological changes in your body.
But here is my question that I am really interested to hear an opinion of, how do you reason with reality?
Most people have the "Have a nice time" type of answer, any ideas?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 16, 2013 10:04 PM |
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Chance.
Wait long enough and it will happen one day.
This reality had a long time to wait.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2013 10:07 PM |
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Man,
1) Good and evil are human inventions and totally subjective and
2) Good and evil are eligible only for sentient beings that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
So unless LIFE is an entity that knows what it's doing and does what it does on purpose, your question is ... nonsense.
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Fauch
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posted January 16, 2013 10:10 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 22:12, 16 Jan 2013.
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what he said.
did you mean
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So unless LIFE isn't an entity that knows what it's doing and does what it does on purpose, your question is ... nonsense.
?
(I was wondering who was asking such a question. well, I'm not surprised)
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Adrius
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Stand and fight!
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posted January 16, 2013 10:11 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 22:12, 16 Jan 2013.
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Uh, trying hard to see your point here.
How do I cope with reality? I stopped questioning it so much.
I accept that some things are simply beyond human comprehension in the state that we are now, like the existance of God or the meaning of life, or the purpose of so much suffering for that matter.
In the meantime I appreciate the beautiful and pleasurable while trying to minimize the wicked and painful.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2013 10:14 PM |
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Thanks, Fauch. Corrected.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 16, 2013 10:18 PM |
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The basis premise have a flaw in that religion is not a mean to oppress. According to the bible, the words of the bible are the words of God.
Beside, for something to be evil, it has to be sentient, and while the subsets of the concept of life is sentient, the concept is not. Therefore life can't be evil.
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Being killed is the worst thing that can happen to a mortal thing which has a limited life because it is unique and once it dies, it will never appear again.
False. They'll go to their personal heaven for all eternity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
I acknowledge wiki is not an absolute source, for better guidance on this matter, you should probably consult the bible. Best with someone skilled in understanding the meaning, as misunderstanding is easy to get, if one has not personally been spoken to by Christ.
Now enough fun talk, to reply more seriously. I think it's a very strong point that the way of life is what we would identify with 'evil', which leads to more 'evil'. However please remember what we observe is not the end line of anything, only a step in the process.
Look at it this way, microorganisms have a very hard time being successful. There are those which kills their host, they aren't successful, because they're typically dependent on the same host. There are those which get the immune system to rally and attack, which aren't successful either. There are those which are parasitic, which may survive if their host does, but it limits their chances, because they weaken their host, there are those which does nothing, but are in an eternal war against other microorganisms on the same host, and finally there are those which are symbiotic, and may even be protected by the immune system, because the host may even depend on them.
Ultimately, as we e.g. observe with social animals, team work, the ability to learn, helping each other, etc. give great advantages, and obviously those with great advantages have a higher chance of survival, therefore increasing the likelihood of these traits. The same goes with parasitic, vs. symbiotic connections, in a symbiotic relationship, each part can give something the other can't get, which allows them to do something both individually never could, thereby making the sum more than the parts. Of course there are problems here as well, in situations with less resources or struggle, it's hard to maintain the higher energy required by any kind of team work, which may lead to a disadvantage. Again, environment decides the course, and then the ball rolls.
Just look at how we've progressed over the past few hundreds of years, still accelerating. Unless we do something to wipe ourselves out, I am quite confident that we'll find a way to replace what we find the unpleasant truth of reality, to eliminate our own genetical limitations, not only for us, but for all life around us.
E.g. while it makes perfect sense that for a living organism to maintain itself, it requires the same building blocks, which it is made of, it also makes perfect sense that these building blocks do not have to come from a living organism in the first place, but in prior steps on the path of changing how we perceive the way of nature, the obvious choice would be to eat each other (even plants are alive), while at later steps, as we become more organised, we find ways to revert energy in a more easy way, thereby being able to generate any building blocks we need, and can freely distribute. (Here it's the example of generating single cell lines).
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Would you change your genetics and remove the need to procreate and replace it with imortality? Would you remove the flaws of our body and become an autcast in a society?
Deus ex machina comes to my mind. Would you want to be subject to a machine that would govern humans equally and without any injustice? An utopian leader if you wish and forgo all biological changes in your body.
Yes, probably.
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Living time backwards
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GunFred
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posted January 16, 2013 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
1) Good and evil are human inventions and totally subjective and
2) Good and evil are eligible only for sentient beings that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
quote]
This, and like Sera implied himself, life is ultimately meaningless. Theoretically, life is no more evil than a lifeless rock.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 16, 2013 10:30 PM |
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Your life has whatever meaning you assign to it. The concept of purpose in the sense used here is again only something which belong to what is sentient. Purpose has to be given by someone. Since you're the one in charge of your life, you decide what's the meaning with what you do, but it doesn't make sense to talk about the meaning of the concept of life itself, as it isn't sentient, or man made. Even if it was man made, you can ask yourself what's the purpose of an item in your hands? Is it what you bought/took it for, or what the inventor says? I say it's what you decide to use it for.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2013 10:42 PM |
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I think the best answer to deal with purposeless of life is to see a purpose, meaning, destination whatever you call it, as something you construct. Not as something that happens to you, but as something you happen to build. Religions are fairy tales, and since you ask the question you asked, fairy tales are not your cup of tea. So don't expect a total feeling of satisfaction like the religions promise, but don't let that dissatisfaction turn you into an anti-fairy tale too. In terms of eternity, everything will be lost, but maybe to last forever shouldn't be what we are seeking to begin with.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 16, 2013 10:48 PM |
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Religions are fairy tales, and since you ask the question you asked, fairy tales are not your cup of tea.
No the bible was dictated by God.
Seriously though, it's nice put, after all, isn't it a lot better to be the one to decide what to do, i.e. the purpose of ones own life, rather than having someone else tell you?
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In terms of eternity, everything will be lost, but maybe to last forever shouldn't be what we are seeking to begin with.
Maybe people should decide what they seek for themselves? In any case, it's not even certain everything will be lost. Even if the observable universe is the entirety of existence, even if the gradient of the universe (mainly increase in global entropy (not local!)), can be extrapolated to the point where time makes no sense anymore, then we still do not know even close enough about, say, the rate of perception to say that nothing will last forever. Heck, eternity might have been certain from the get go. After all, we don't even know what consciousness is. I know some here have their guess, including me, but it doesn't mean we know.
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Seraphim
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posted January 16, 2013 10:55 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 23:01, 16 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
Man,
1) Good and evil are human inventions and totally subjective and
2) Good and evil are eligible only for sentient beings that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
So unless LIFE is an entity that knows what it's doing and does what it does on purpose, your question is ... nonsense.
Calling anything evil is abusurd but in my book evil is somethings that are systematically disadvantageous to living things or individuals.
Lets throw the whole evil out of the board. How would you define the endeavors of life, survival of the fittest, eating other animals awhole...Thats the way of life? Then why is life so "Glorified"?
Why does our society, media, people, and whatnot behave as if life was good?
I am just trying to coin a term to all of the snow I see everyday. Evil seems to be the wrong term.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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JollyJoker
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posted January 16, 2013 10:57 PM |
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People who complain about the purposelessness of life actually mean the purposelessness of their own life.
However, all life has the one purpose: to be lived. Are we really better off when we are forced into some purpose?
No. Life is what you make it, and the purpose is to live - think of the alternative: all a lifeless nothing or even nothing at all.
So. No obligations. No gods that want to be worshipped. Just a gift that everyone can try to make the best of. Or just throw away.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2013 10:59 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:01, 16 Jan 2013.
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Well OhforfSake, I am not forcing someone who finds meaning in religion out of it. I think Seraphim and I both agree, that's not it.
And when it comes to "we dont know yet, how can we be sure" kind of epistemology, that's called mysticism and it's really an overrated way of saying "I have no idea but I'll pass that as one."
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Seraphim
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Knowledge Reaper
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posted January 16, 2013 11:15 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 23:37, 16 Jan 2013.
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Forfy,i am not trying to be rude or something, but I am an atheist.
Heaven, hell, god, "Insert prophet here" does not appeal to me.
I dont want a religious debate. The point I mentioned religion was that I wanted to use it as a historical device that helped people define life.
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People who complain about the purposelessness of life actually mean the purposelessness of their own life.
Thats true. I dont deny it. But this has been an issue for me for quite a long time. I thought that this might be a nice talk.
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However, all life has the one purpose: to be lived.
Are we really better off when we are forced into some purpose?
No. Life is what you make it, and the purpose is to live - think of the alternative: all a lifeless nothing or even nothing at all.
I like that view.
So. No obligations. No gods that want to be worshipped. Just a gift that everyone can try to make the best of. Or just throw away.
Yes, thats a way to put it straight. But making a purpose out of life might lead to some pretty weak reasons.
Imo, we are living for our pleasures but if there are no pleasures to be made and only the hope of something better to come remains, thats in my book a pointless life. We can hope for many things, but many are unrealistic and probably never gonna happen.
The hope of getting candies while you are bombarded with "No candies will come" "Everyone tries to steal your candies" and so on, makes it a somewhat hard for a child work for.
Isnt nothingness better than being trapped or imprisoned for life?
I am talking about a pointless life such as those people living in africa, slums or whatever dumpsites of modern society?
I would argue that for them, the best course of action would be no human birth.
I would argue for yes but then that would end this discussion. How sad.
@adrius
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How do I cope with reality? I stopped questioning it so much.
Thats what I did and do. "Making the best out of it" was my reasoning with this.
@To all
The whole "Evil" thing I said before was just my intent on extrapolating human behaviour to nature.
I am accusing something as inert as nature for things the way they are. Heck, I am accsuing nature for being pointless.
Maybe I am overcompensating here with my morals.
Well, the answers in this thread were good. Sometimes, you need someone to poke you from nonsensical thoughts.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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OhforfSake
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posted January 16, 2013 11:23 PM |
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Haha, who says anyone's being rude here? As God is perfect, so is all of his creation, including life, therefore rudeness cannot exist. The same goes for air though... hmmm...
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And when it comes to "we dont know yet, how can we be sure" kind of epistemology, that's called mysticism and it's really an overrated way of saying "I have no idea but I'll pass that as one."
I'll be the first to admit I've no clue what you mean by mysticism or how it is different from religion in other ways that those of history.
Still, may I please suggest that you reread my response? Note it's directed towards the absoluteness of the statement.
If you give up, then here's the answer:
Artu: Statement
OFFS: Skeptic towards certainty of statement.
Artu: Mysticism
Since this is a discussion forum, I think it'd only be proper application to actually either verify your statement or drop the issue in stead of throwing labels.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2013 11:37 PM |
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Quote:
Isnt nothingness better than being trapped or imprisoned for life?
Yes, that's one of the classics. I dont recall his name right now but one of the Ancient Greek philosophers asked it as this:
Isn't it better not to be born at all than to know you'll die?
You can only define life as entrapment because of death. In the end it comes to that. That's why you, consciously or not, chose the word "nothingness". There is no easy, comforting answer to the reality of death. Distract yourself or find something that really makes you happy, which can still be defined as a distraction in the end but at least it wont feel like one.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2013 11:46 PM |
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Quote:
I'll be the first to admit I've no clue what you mean by mysticism or how it is different from religion in other ways that those of history.
Mysticism= Even if the observable universe is the entirety of existence, even if the gradient of the universe (mainly increase in global entropy (not local!)), can be extrapolated to the point where time makes no sense anymore, then we still do not know even close enough about, say, the rate of perception to say that nothing will last forever. Heck, eternity might have been certain from the get go. After all, we don't even know what consciousness is. I know some here have their guess, including me, but it doesn't mean we know.
We all know that we can't be 100 percent sure about anything except the existence of our own minds, we all watched Matrix and some of us even read Descartes But building an opinion on that is not really building an opinion.
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OhforfSake
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posted January 16, 2013 11:55 PM |
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No no no, that's an absurd use of the equality sign, and less importantly, not addressing the point of the post at all.
The point: I'm not interested in discussing the meaning of mysticism, I'm interested in you backing up your statement.
How do you figure nothing is eternal? If you want to use any explanation which refers to what I wrote previously, please take what I wrote previously into consideration as well, so there won't be any unnecessary repetition.
Edit:
Quote:
Isnt nothingness better than being trapped or imprisoned for life?
I am talking about a pointless life such as those people living in africa, slums or whatever dumpsites of modern society?
I would argue that for them, the best course of action would be no human birth.
I would argue for yes but then that would end this discussion. How sad.
Better for whom? And no.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 17, 2013 12:06 AM |
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Quote:
How do you figure nothing is eternal?
Well, a person ends when his/her brain decomposes so in that sense we are not eternal. I am convinced with the current scientific data on that. The universe also is an aging thing and as it keeps on expanding, in the end it will freeze. I am convinced with the scientific data on that too.
Right now, if we don't apply the mystical method of "but how can we really really be sure" this is as far as I know.
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