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| Thread: The American Civil War |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 17, 2013 12:18 PM |
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I wonder why would somebody from Romania feel the need to romanticize the old ways of the American South. I mean U.S. culture is to a point global but nothing can be that global, especially if it emphasizes the importance of being local!
And about the few Northern states with slavery, it is even explained in the movie Lincoln.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 12:54 PM |
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I like the South, reminds me of my own region of Wallachia, always bordered by some big shot states like the Habsburg, ottoman or Byzantine empires. And we had slaves of our own, the gypsies. I have nothing against black people or gypsy people or any other people mind you.
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Elodin
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posted April 17, 2013 12:56 PM |
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The Emancipation Proclamation was not issued until a year and a half after the Civil War started. The war was not over slavery but over state's rights. The Southern states left the union because they had no political voice. The North had elected Lincoln without a single Southern electoral college vote for him. Less than a month after the election the secession began.
The North wanted to keep their political slaves (the South) and went to war to do so. It is that simple.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 12:58 PM |
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Also, slavery had been around for thousands of years. And the American South was certainly not the only place it was still being used in the 19th century but like I said, history is written by the winners.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 17, 2013 01:03 PM |
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Maybe you'll also praise KKK a bit?
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:07 PM |
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The Civil War was about states rights.the KKK, that's another thing altogether. It's like bashing all Saudi Arabia for Al Qaeda.
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Zenofex
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posted April 17, 2013 01:14 PM |
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Nah, I'm just trying to figure out what's the purpose of this thread. What I understand thus far is that the North are the bad guys because some states had slaves and attacked while the South are the good guys because they all had slaves and got attacked. Or something like that.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:15 PM |
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Let's leave slaves out of this, shall we? The South wanted rights and independence, the North wouldn't leave them alone. I'm just saying the South fought for independence while the North just wanted to rule the South as well as its own lands. But somehow the South are seen as villains.
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Zenofex
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posted April 17, 2013 01:20 PM |
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And you feel offended and try to swap the places or the villain and the... hm, non-villain?
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:20 PM |
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I can't change history, I just state my opinion.
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Zenofex
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posted April 17, 2013 01:22 PM |
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You'll do far better if you drop the romantic approach. History is not for romantics.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 17, 2013 01:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:35, 17 Apr 2013.
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Slavery was not the only reason of the War but it was a major, fundamental issue of it Drakon, why the North was not faster to abolish it is explainable: Timing. It was not tactically wise to oppose the few Northern states that still had it.
Now, saying the plantation economy of the South needed a more gradual change is, you may agree or disagree, a reasonable argument but saying the whole issue of slavery had in fact nothing to with the American Civil War is either being quite naive or making up propaganda.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:28 PM |
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I said in my opening post that slavery was no doubt an issue. But why blame the South specifically for slavery and not Ancient Egypt or other states?
Sorry Z-man, I am a romantic and I love history.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 17, 2013 01:31 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:16, 17 Apr 2013.
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Because Ancient Egypt did not have a Constitution granting every individuals right to freedom and it did not exist in the 19th Century. Values and moral codes evolve as history progresses, slavery was a common thing even for the most liberal minded man of ancient times. Don't ask questions that has answers this obvious.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:35 PM |
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Look, I'm not saying slavery is good, just that the South was not inherently evil. Those boys who fought in the Confederate Army probably could care less about slaves. And men like Robert E Lee perosnally opposed slavery.
I gave the Ancient Egypt example just to show that Dixie was not the fatherland of slavery or anything.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 17, 2013 01:40 PM |
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I know you are not saying slavery is good, you're just acting like it is totally irrelevant while it is not. And Robert Lee's personal behavior is not of importance when evaluating things in a bigger scale, it's as childish as saying some SS officer had a Jewish friend. So what? What do you think a civil war is, Grant and Lee playing chess or something!
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 17, 2013 01:43 PM |
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It was relevant, sure. But some people are acting like the South wanted to have as many slaves as possible and beat them to death with whips all day long and that the Union was the most righteous state on Earth for fighting the Confederacy. That's not exactly true either.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 17, 2013 01:45 PM |
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And may I ask who that people are?
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted April 17, 2013 01:46 PM |
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If you mean people I've personally dealt with, mainly on youtube on Civil War videos and the like. That attitude bothered me so I did some research for myself.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted April 17, 2013 04:13 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:14, 17 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
I hate it how the South are perceived as the villains just because they endorsed slavery (as did some Union states as well) and the Union and Lincoln as the big heroes. But then again history is written by the winners.
One perception is never good to have when looking at a conflict of any sort, especially a civil-war. I mentioned the money-angle of the upper-crust but the reality is most southerners did not own a single slave. Records indicate that many were fighting because, as one rebel-soldier put it, when asked why he was fighting; "because you’ re down here." As in all wars, the majority of both armies were from lower-classes that fought for many reasons.
Quote:
I have much more respect for a man like Robert Edward Lee than Abraham Lincoln. Any other president could've issued that proclamation, but could any other army man do what Lee did?
Just curious, Have you read much about Lincoln? Lee was always a hero of mine and it was not till later in life that I learned of Lincoln. I think both were outstanding leaders, even if for very different reasons.
<imo> Lee was a class-act and a brilliant general. His command was one that I would think could be a model of leadership for today's army for several reasons; not only because of his battle-field tactics, campaign-strategies but also his leadership. His success in managing an army that was always under-fed and under-equipped is underscored by the trust and honor is men always had for him. Much of history records him in a rather mythic-light; but even so, I think much of it is accurate; he and Jackson were legends in both armies and in their own lifetimes. That's an uncommon occurrence.
But <imo> Lincoln was no slouch either because he was a very good politician that could do as Lee did and stand against stronger forces. He was very often unpopular in the North because he did change gears and take a stand. But besides that, for me, I think there has seldom been a better speech written then his address at Gettysburg. The chief-speaker for that dedication-ceremony said; "the president said in two minutes what I didn't say in 2 hours".
About any president doing what he did? he almost didn't do it because Abe, like all others, knew danger would follow. When physical-fights were happening in unusual places within society, it took no great imagination on anyone's part to realize the Proclamation could get him shot.
A little trivia; the 1st battle of Bull-Run happened in 1861 on Wilmer McLean's farm; afterwards he moved to get away from the fighting. The war m/l ended in is his new home's parlor, four years later. 
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